• Shiloh,

    Welcome to the conversation - but here is the key issue with your otherwise interesting suggestion…

    You CANNOT discount the time factor. The closest you can come is to agree before the game begins to play a certain number of rounds (typically 5 for 1942 and 6 for anniversary - though it can vary a bit depending on the players).

    Other issues are a) the use (or non-use) of a simulator - not allowed in FTF play b) the whole 'you get no break for 4-6 hours deal with FTF tournament c) different victory conditions

    I actually think your idea is kinda neat - but - I just don’t see how you get past the time constraints to make things ‘equal’ between FTF and online. Suggestions?

    MM


  • So I start a thread, and by the third page it’s turned into “Operation Argue-about-stupid-crap”


  • Oztea,

    Yeah - sorry about that.

    China is, BTW, 4 territories - to get back on topic….  :-D

    MM


  • If these changes are correct I REALLLLY can’t wait for this one. The green chip idea is awesome. It is about time WOTC realized the need for these. Thanks for the info guys I think my buddies will be excited about this one.


  • @questioneer:

    @smo63:

    @questioneer:

    @smo63:

    Wow…said something nice about the games.� � But wait, I thought All other AA games equaled “Candyland” in comparision to G40?

    Greg, I’m surprised you actually use the “internet”- seeming how you think Triple A/Online players are inferior to your boys at GenCon.

    Shiloe,

    I know we jab at each other a lot, but please don’t ever put words in my mouth when you know they aren’t true. �

    You know I never said that and that you are the one I believe have beat the FTF players down by making comments like, “they have no idea to play the game” Etc.

    I never nor will I ever say that anyone is inferior to any one else especially when it comes to playing AA. � All I have said that it is a board game. � And when online players come to play FTF, the are in for a big surprise when it comes to playing FTF. �

    I thought we agreed that we will never really know if one is better than another. � So, I am not really sure if you are serious or not, but I don’t appreciate you putting words in my mouth regarding this. � If anything, the whole point, is that online players talk smack about the games but when it comes to playing FTF, well there is one excuse after another.

    That is why it is so great that I will get to meet Dave J. again…

    Peace,
    Greg Smorey
    Axis & Allies Tournament Director, GM-GEN CON/Origins/SG

    First spell my name right…Shiloh

    Secondly, you HAVE personally attacked online players…don’t make me pull out the emails…checkmate.

    Third, let’s throw some ideas around here…what if we were to create tournaments for each of the games here at AA.org: say the new 2nd edition 1942, the new 1941 game, G40 and maybe AA50 (though I think that’s on its way out the door).

    These tournaments would be qualifiers so to speak. � Each of these tournaments would use the format that you use at the FTF tournaments- GenCon/Origins, barring the time constraints of course since online gamers go live or use TripleA/PBF.

    The finalists (2 teams from each game type) of each of these tournaments wins a weekend pass to GenCon maybe even with a Hotel stay, and they will all earn and automatic bid to play in the Semi-Finals of each game type. � Or if you have a Masters tournament- they earn automatic bids to the Masters.

    It can happen. � I can organize it. � The gauntlet has been laid. � Those are the terms. � What do you think???

    Ok, sorry about that, it was a typo…but then, have at it.  I have NEVER said that “Triple A/Online players are inferior to your boys at GenCon.”  You can staring looking because you won’t find it unless somehow you have a way to change what I said to you.

    I have said that online players have a hard time adjusting when they play FTF players at any CON when they aren’t used to the system and a lot of times, do get their butts kicked.  But I never said they are inferior.  :roll:


  • @miamiumike:

    Shiloh,

    Welcome to the conversation - but here is the key issue with your otherwise interesting suggestion…

    You CANNOT discount the time factor. The closest you can come is to agree before the game begins to play a certain number of rounds (typically 5 for 1942 and 6 for anniversary - though it can vary a bit depending on the players).

    Other issues are a) the use (or non-use) of a simulator - not allowed in FTF play b) the whole 'you get no break for 4-6 hours deal with FTF tournament c) different victory conditions

    I actually think your idea is kinda neat - but - I just don’t see how you get past the time constraints to make things ‘equal’ between FTF and online. Suggestions?

    MM

    Mike,

    Right, the time factor cannot really be done except by estimating rounds.  We would probably do up to a certain number of rounds- 1 round per 1hr.  So for instance in the AA50 game we would do 6 rounds flat b/c its a 6 hour tourny.

    As far as the simulator, its a simple battlecalc on a phone app we could use.  I just simply gives the odds- that’s its- nothing to be intimidated about.  It really doesn’t give you much of an advantage.  Its just a handy tool.  Have you banned this from the GenCon tourny???  I don’t see that ban in any of the rules Greg posted.

    I do Dominion qualifiers here and for Dominion (as well as Catan, 7Wonders I believe also) they hold FTF Qualifiers AND Online qualifiers.  Now the online qualifiers for Dominion use a point/card counter- again its a tool but not a huge advantage.  Never really made a difference and the Nationals proved it.

    I figure if these other great games allow winners of online qualifiers into their national tournaments, why shouldn’t Axis and Allies???

    Greg has recently challenged the online players saying essentially if they really know how to play then they should just come to his tournaments and proof it.  OK then, if the best of these online gamers come to GenCon (some may come from out of the country- Canada and elsewhere), and come to play in a format on HIS terms (which most of the online gamers despise), then the least we would require is automatic bids from our own qualifiers for teams in the semi-finals or masters- regardless if our online qualifiers have a “time constraint”.

    If you and Greg are even remotely interested in this, that would be meeting us halfway and compromising.

    The point is many other popular game systems have “Online” Qualifiers.  They respect the competitive play online enough to give them a couple automatic bids.

    Greg, from my conversations with him, doesn’t seem to respect the play here on Triple A and AA.org.  He was pretty upset with the whole Alpha project simply because Larry chose to wisely use and listen to the online community of AA players over him.  He mocked the online players and their knowledge of the game and stated that they didn’t know what was good for the game and such.  Now mind you he did this during the time I thoroughly updated him on Alpha project only by his invitation to help create a G40 tourny format for GenCon/Origins.

    With every criticism of the changes made in G40, I had to walk him through why those decisions were made and why they were the best solutions.  He was very uninformed with the G40 development and really didn’t understand the game’s strategies and flow.  Its very different from the others.  Much more complex.  He kinda took offense to that and thinks the online gamers “brainwashed” Larry.  Yes, that is a direct quote.  So him saying he never said anything like that is a flat out lie.

    I shot back at him quickly saying he needs to show a little more respect to the online AAplayers who play the games 5-10 times more than his FTF guys do and have spent a lot of unselfish time working with Larry on the project.  So I know he says one thing in front of others but he definitely feels a different way behind closed doors.  Point being, his ego gets in the way of progress sometimes.


  • Question, you are not the one to talk about ego. :)


  • Questioneer,

    OK, let me try and explain this to you in the simplest terms I know how.  I know that you are an extremely intelligent person; I respect you for all you have done for the AA online community and the AA gaming community in general, but hear me out.

    Let me start with the fact that, we have created a game system from the original rules of each and every Axis & Allies game for people to come and play at a CON, FTF.  We have created rules system from the original, out of box rules, in every case and revised them to fit into the Convention time frame for fun and enjoyable games for all level of players.  Then we take those that are interested in competing in a tournament format for specific games, i.e. G40, AA50, 1942, etc. and used the time allotted and the suggestions of all those that have played in the past, to make a game format for each specific game that fits the need.

    So, to answer your first question:
    @questioneer:

    As far as the simulator, its a simple battlecalc on a phone app we could use.  I just simply gives the odds- that’s its- nothing to be intimidated about.  It really doesn’t give you much of an advantage.  Its just a handy tool.  Have you banned this from the GenCon tourny???  I don’t see that ban in any of the rules Greg posted.

    All electronic devices are NOT permitted in any tournament event that I run at any of the CON’s.  Why?  Because, one, it is not in the box that game comes in.  And two, not everyone has access to the same information as one with one of these toys.  And last, I know enough about online gaming apps, you are cheating the game.  I don’t care how simple you might think it is and how much of an advantage you might think it doesn’t give one over another, if everyone can’t have one, and then you can’t.  Simple.

    Ok, you bring up, other games.  It comes down to a simple fact that playing any game online is a different experience than playing FTF.  Most if not all board games were created and designed to be played ftf.  Not online.  That always comes afterwards.  And there isn’t any game designer that would tell you, including Larry, that playing AA online is different from playing ftf.  And one can’t force the way one plays under either system on the other…

    Here again, Axis & Allies is a series of board games designed to be played ftf in front of people without the use of AI.  I am sorry if someone can’t grasp that, but it is what it is…when WotC or Larry tells me that you need to start having online games at the CON’s and supplies me with all the utilities do to so…I am all for it.

    @questioneer:

    I do Dominion qualifiers here and for Dominion (as well as Catan, 7Wonders I believe also) they hold FTF Qualifiers AND Online qualifiers.  Now the online qualifiers for Dominion use a point/card counter- again its a tool but not a huge advantage.  Never really made a difference and the Nationals proved it.

    I figure if these other great games allow winners of online qualifiers into their national tournaments, why shouldn’t Axis and Allies???

    I never said that I wouldn’t allow winner of online qualifiers into our tournaments.  I have NEVER denied anyone to come and play at any event I run.  It is that you guys want me to run it the way you play your online events.  I guarantee, the online gamers don’t have access to the simulators when playing in the national tournaments FTF.  I know they don’t for Settlers.

    @questioneer:

    Greg has recently challenged the online players saying essentially if they really know how to play then they should just come to his tournaments and proof it.  OK then, if the best of these online gamers come to GenCon (some may come from out of the country- Canada and elsewhere), and come to play in a format on HIS terms (which most of the online gamers despise), then the least we would require is automatic bids from our own qualifiers for teams in the semi-finals or masters- regardless if our online qualifiers have a “time constraint”.

    If you and Greg are even remotely interested in this, that would be meeting us halfway and compromising.

    Ok, so I have challenged you and other so called online experts to come and play  FTF.  What is the big deal?  Lets see how much of a difference it is…?

    But regardless of who comes, you have to play under the rules set forth by the tournament.  I wouldn’t expect to come and play online and insist on playing by our set FTF rules!  For those that come to play at the CON’s, you have to play by the terms by which the game creator has set and just common sense rules to get games in a timely manner so that a tournament could exist.  Plus, 90% of all the rules that we have created for each event have been created at the suggestion of the players.  Just like G40 rules done by you.

    As for the automatic bids from your own qualifiers, what you are asking then to me to sanction Axis & Allies events across the world.  I can’t do that.  I would be more than happy to entertain the thought of inviting online gamers that win local online tournaments to GEN CON and play in the Masters, though it will must be with the understanding that those invited must play under the rules established by our tournaments.

    @questioneer:

    Greg, from my conversations with him, doesn’t seem to respect the play here on Triple A and AA.org.  He was pretty upset with the whole Alpha project simply because Larry chose to wisely use and listen to the online community of AA players over him.  He mocked the online players and their knowledge of the game and stated that they didn’t know what was good for the game and such.  Now mind you he did this during the time I thoroughly updated him on Alpha project only by his invitation to help create a G40 tourny format for GenCon/Origins.

    That is your opinion.  Hey, I did respect you and all online gamers up to this point.  But with attacks like this, it is kind of hard too.  All I am trying to do here is run events and I get slammed none stop by you guys because you continual tell us we are “incompetent” or “we have no idea how to play AA”.

    And I am NOT nor was I ever upset with the Alpha project simply because Larry chose to listen to online community of AA players, especial over me.  I am not that arrogant.  I didn’t want to help on the G40 rules after the first version.  I told Larry that and it doesn’t get any simpler than that.  I didn’t have the time nor did I want to continue on in the play testing after the initial game was done.

    And me mocking the online players, Shiloh, here again, the only mockery that has ever come from me is of Ohio State Fans, Bengal Fans and to your responses, to your arrogance of how much better you are at knowing Axis & Allies than myself and other FTF players.  Heck you even say it in the next paragraph by saying, “he really didn’t understand the game’s strategies and flow.”

    @questioneer:

    With every criticism of the changes made in G40, I had to walk him through why those decisions were made and why they were the best solutions.  He was very uninformed with the G40 development and really didn’t understand the game’s strategies and flow.  Its very different from the others.  Much more complex.  He kinda took offense to that and thinks the online gamers “brainwashed” Larry.  Yes, that is a direct quote.  So him saying he never said anything like that is a flat out lie.

    I shot back at him quickly saying he needs to show a little more respect to the online AAplayers who play the games 5-10 times more than his FTF guys do and have spent a lot of unselfish time working with Larry on the project.  So I know he says one thing in front of others but he definitely feels a different way behind closed doors.  Point being, his ego gets in the way of progress sometimes.

    Get over yourself.  You don’t think this is you taking personal jabs at me for just asking for help.  I was very informed with the original G40 development bud.  My name is on the rules.  I understand the strategies and such just not the way online gamers look at it and that is all I was asking for with your input.

    I only took offense to your attacks at me for not understanding why something had changed.  Real professional on your part.  Especially coming from a professor.

    Shiloh, Don’t ever accuse me of saying something to anyone in front of others and then stabbing them in the back or changing my story.  Bud, you crossed the line, again, and again with attacks like these.  You don’t even know me and for you to make accusations like this…

    Yes, that is a direct quote.  Because in my opinion, you did.  If you didn’t we wouldn’t be having this argument, debate, call it what you want…I never denied saying that.

    And I shot back at you quickly saying that, that means nothing in what we are trying to accomplish here.  Dude if you really want to add up the unselfish hours I have dedication to the game of Axis & Allies over the past  19 years, you are more than welcome to, but I am not going to because all that is when someone brags about how much time and effort they worked on something and not even recognizing the others first, now then, who is the one with an inflated ego…

    Shiloh, I am done with this conversation.  If you want to join us at any of the CON’s you know I will be there.  And keep me posted on events you have, I might be able to break away sometime and get to one.  Hell, maybe even a weekend I am at the BIG HOUSE, but regardless, I am not really sure if you are just showing off for your online buddies or if you really are a malicious as you are regarding your comments in this post.  And I really had hoped that we could come to an amicable conditions regarding this, but I guess not…


  • Start a different thread for this……

  • Sponsor '17 TripleA '11 '10

    @oztea:

    This always bugged me about AA revised….China is a big place, and it was really hard for Japan to get into the interior.
    So will China be 3 territories, 4? Or the old standby 2 territories… :cry:

    Not sure if me chiming in here is still relevant or not but DJ gave me the green light to talk about some stuff…

    China is 4 territories all worth 1 IPC each. Yunnan splits Kwangtung and FIC-Thailand so the Japanese have to take Yunnan to move between the two by land.

    Also, I don’t remember where this asked but Burma has been added between India and FIC-Thailand.

  • Sponsor '17 TripleA '11 '10

    @oztea:

    Also, if each territory was 1 IPC, then no ICs could ever be built in China, which is also a good thing.

    (Though I would like a special rule that the US can always mobilize one Infantry in China if it controls at least one Chinese territory & India is held by the UK)

    According to page 22 of the rulebook, any territory with a value of at least 1 can have an IC. But you could only mobilize 1 unit there per turn and it could easily be SBRed to make it real expensive.

  • Sponsor '17 TripleA '11 '10

    @miamiumike:

    I do not have the board in front of me, so, I do not have all the changes, but here are ones I do know:

    a) algeria and libya were 2 territories - now are 3 - add in morrocco - all worth 1 IPC
    b) china has been divided into 4 territories (each worth 1 IPC)
    c) what was s. europe now has s. europe and I think Italy separate - there is an IC in Italy, but the IPC value is only 3
    d) the overall IPC count at the start is almost exactly the same - I think Germany starts with 41 (not 40) and UK starts with 31 (not 30)
    e) australia is now two territories (each worth 1 IPC)
    f) norway is now split into finland and norway
    g) there seems to be just a bit more ‘space’ between germany (berlin) and russia (moscow)
    h) africa is just a bit different - including egypt being by itself with I think sudan below it (but sudan is worth nothing)
    i) there is now a burma territory
    j) western europe is now broken into two pieces - like global

    That is all I can remember ATM…

    MM

    This is all correct for the most part.

    Overall IPC count is 31 and 41 as stated above… according to the map.

    Number of territories between Berlin and Moscow is the same, but they are arranged differently with the addition of the Baltic States.


  • Variable - yes, I think I said more space, but really meant just a different arragement of the territories - sorry about that :oops:

  • Sponsor '17 TripleA '11 '10

    @miamiumike:

    Variable - yes, I think I said more space, but really meant just a different arragement of the territories - sorry about that :oops:

    No worries… I was actually very impressed with your memory! I had to pull the map out to check your list. I couldn’t have done it.


  • I have seen the map already, it has been posted online


  • Greg,

    1. Battle Calc apps not at your tourny- that’s your call.  I understand. Â

    2. So you ARE open to the idea of automatic bids to a Masters or Semi-finals for online tourny winners @AA.org???  I’ll hold you to it if you really mean that- I think many hear would be interested in that.  I could organize it here from our end.  It could really turn out to be something.

    3. So you never said that the online players “brainwashed” Larry and that you weren’t upset.  Boldfaced lie.  Yeah OK Greg, that’s just flat out ignorant.  :roll:


  • Where has the map been posted?  I have only seen a small picture of the game board on page 8 of the 1942 2nd Ed. rulebook posted by smo63 on a seperate thread on this forum.

    BTW, the personal comments are inappropriate and off topic for this thread.  Please take it somewhere else.  Doesn’t this forum have a moderator to police comments?

  • Customizer

    Seriously. You guys have been asked twice by the original poster to take your argument elsewhere. Spare us this crap please.


  • I am referring to page 8.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @Most:

    Seriously. You guys have been asked twice by the original poster to take your argument elsewhere. Spare us this crap please.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rRZdiu1UE

    Sabotage!

    As for the map… It looks awesome!  I’m really looking forward to the 2nd edition release!

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