• lets see some pictures of these proposed units?


  • I would say that assuming a separate German supplement set is coming, having a couple of infantry sculpts might be better than heavy artillery… and maybe 3 infantry options would be better than SP artillery, ESPECIALLY because you’ll already have the StuG III to use as SP artillery, which was, indeed, somewhat closer to its original intended role.  (Interestingly, I recently discovered that StuG III’s were mostly manned crews from the “Artillery” branch, whereas the TD’s, like most of the other AFV’s were manned by the Armor branch soldiers.)  Aside from a few StuG’s, Most axis minor SP artillery (such as there was) was pretty ad hoc stuff; converted hulls of one thing mated to a completely un-related gun over here often even combining German and captured Soviet parts…!  Infantry is what the axis minors mainly had… for AFV’s they pretty much made do with whatever they could get.

    The dilemma (and I’m sure you’ve already been struggling with it) is that infantry uniforms are often where the national distinctives come out most.  Fortunately in the case of the axis minors, the widespread use of the German Stahlhelm and derivatives is likely to hide a lot of this on this scale, perhaps for all but the Romanians (whose helmets were actually based on the Dutch model, of all things!) It almost makes one wish you could do infantry and vehicles as separate categories: if you did do infantry with the Romanian helmet, if you went ahead and did some more in orange, you’d have the perfect Dutch infantry, but then you’d maybe want another vehicle set for the Dutch (one that includes some warships up to maybe cruiser size, certainly…)

    I always thought those Dutch-Romanian helmets were pretty cool-looking and distinctive, if a little “villainous” (perhaps because they sub-consciously reminded me of those worn by “COBRA” soldiers in the “GI JOE” universe of my childhood)…

    But I digress.  For the best possible applicability for axis minors, (setting issues of dual use as Germans or Dutch aside) I’d prioritize as follows:

    1. Stahlhelm infantry
    2. Field cap infantry
    3. Romanian helmet Infantry

    As to whether to put them in long coats or winter gear, I’m not sure yet.  I just ordered a book on Germany’s East Front allies, so I’ll report back my thoughts on that as soon as it arrives if it isn’t too late by then…it’s so hard to find good info about these armies on the web! (Unless I’m missing something…)


  • The game needs an airborne infantry unit, a marine unit, and a partisan unit. These can be the same sculpt but in different colors or just one set for axis and the other allies.

    I very basic minor neutral army list with basic units ( just infantry, artillery, mech, and tank) and the missing French units that stole the sculpts from Russia.

    A fortification unit or coastal gun battery plus some jet planes would be good for tech units.

    These are the missing units from either OOB or FMG.

    These would get more bang for the buck. I think people would or could just repaint the pieces for tank destroyers and armored cars. How many minor nations are going to have stug III?


  • Well, IL, considering it could be used in house rules as a medium tank, a TD or an SP gun according to preference, I see the StuG III as a pretty versatile piece, and, once again, its the most produced and one of the most exported German AFV’s…

    But I do see you point about the usefulness of many different infantry sculpts… I think using standard infantry in a different color or with a painted base is ideal for a marine/ elite infantry unit… and all the variant colors of infantry from the original 5 powers can serve for this: Coach has nearly every option of these alternate colors available on his website right now, so there’s the answer to that, I think.  (e.g., I use the bright red Soviet infantry from the original Pacific for Soviet “Guards,” the dark green marines from the same for USMC, red Japanese infantry from the same for SNLF, blonde Brits from D-Day for Royal Marines, etc.)

    For an airborne unit, here’s an idea: are either of you familiar with the “Commando” piece from that old “Enemy on the Horizon” expansion?  It has that “paratrooper look” with abbreviated helmet and sub-gun and overalls… and yet is generic enough to split the differences between say British, German, US and Italian para’s.  What do you guys think of a piece along these lines as a generic “universal paratrooper” piece?  Y’all could probably find pictures of it so you can see what I mean on boardgamegeek, if you aren’t familiar with what it looks like.  Again, just thinking aloud.

  • Sponsor '17 '13 '11 '10

    IL,
    This thread is for the Axis Minor nations, not what the whole game needs.
    I am starting with Germany and it’s Minors and going from there. My plans are to coincide with FMG units, supplement their set and along the way pick up other Nations like Canada, and minors like the Dutch. If FMG does not do Airborne, I will.
    Thanks


  • So, should I wait till you come out with the Self-Propelled Artillary or buy mine from GHQ?  Whats you ETA?

  • Sponsor '17 '13 '11 '10

    4 months


  • Do you have a sculptor yet?

  • Sponsor '17 '13 '11 '10

    I do not want to have a thread with 7000 replies back and forth, but everything is moving forward.

  • '10

    @coachofmany:

    4 months

    We have discussed this in depth, HBG and FMG will work together. HBG is going to fill all the wants and gaps that we could not do.

    4 months?  If you can do that I would be shocked.


  • Good points on the German and Romanian/Dutch helmets.The Romanian SP(Marseal?) was an inspiration for the Marder,if thats the SP built on the Pz 38 chasis.I know I’m
    sounding like a broken record on this one,but the Hungarian Toldi tank,Nimrod SP/AA,and
    75 mm(Bofors) were all license built Swedish designs.
    I would stock up on just about anything for the minor Euro  powers and sell my metal stuff that I presently have for them to pay for it!


  • Sounds Awsome.  Looking forward to seeing the outcome.


  • After buying so much of my micro armor from the metal shops in Britain,it’s great to see
    these projects happening here.I’ve been itching to get an order to the new H+R for some
    armor/aircraft,but I’ve got to see how the plastic projects pan out.Last year I bought
    armor from Rolco,men of war from Viktory II,modern jets from Oriental Trading…all plastic.I’ll be saving a bundle just in shipping.Plus the price of metal!
    I too must admit to haunting this site lately.

  • '12

    looking forward for your product


  • After another week’s (admittedly intermittent) research and after pouring through the newly arrived book I ordered on the subject, here are my latest thoughts on the “perfect” axis minors set:

    1. The field hat actually is not a bad idea.  Most of the pictures I was finding of Hungarian and Romanian soldiers in soft hats weren’t showing visors though… and then I realized that many of them actually had folding visors!  At the same time, similar hats with fixed visors and without visors (like the classic “overseas cap”) also seem to have been worn and I haven’t been able to get a good idea of what the real ratio of the three types really was, particularly as it’s often difficult to tell which is which when you’re looking at a grainy picture!  Nevertheless, it is undoubtedly true that the famous German visored field cap actually had its origins in the Austro-Hungarian WW1-era field cap, which inspired the German Mountain Troops field hat, which, in turn, was modified and adapted into the famous general-issue and DAK visored caps…

    2. I still think a Stahlhelm infantry would also be a good idea.  I’m still seeing an overwhelmingly helmeted infantry in the pictures I’m finding of battle-bound Hungarians and Finns, and these guys all wear the Stahlhelm.  With the widespread us of the design by Spanish, the Chinese and the Bulgarians, having multi-colored Stahlhelm-wearers makes sense.  I don’t know, maybe there’s a separate accessory set in there instead… “Ladies and gentlemen, the latest from HBG Industries, a rainbow array of soldiers in Fritz-helmets & Kraut-caps!”  :lol:

    3. In the realm of tanks, I’m seeing the German tank exports to their allies split pretty evenly between Panzer III’s and Panzer IV’s; as far as other AFV exports, I think we got it right with the StuGIII’s; when the Germans sent their allies tracked AFV’s, this III/IV series seems to be the design generation they went with and it makes sense: they were enough better than what the allies were used to to be an improvement for pretty much any of their allies, so why part with the “good stuff,” the Panthers and Jagdpanthers and beyond…

    4. Yeah they had some heavy artillery here and there, but it wasn’t necessarily German stuff anyway: it was more likely to be obsolete (and horse-drawn) WW1-era stuff if and when they had it.

    5. In the SP realm, StuGIII’s excepted, it looks like pretty much anything they had was jury-rigged one-offs.  The hummel might work as a reasonable facsimile to these sorts of things, but might be a better fit in that “supplemental German vehicle” set you were talking about, I don’t know.

    Bottom line: for the best true-to-the-axis-minors accuracy, you might consider ditching the heavy artillery and SP artillery and add in a helmeted infantry and an early Panzer IV, but I think you’re generally on the right track

  • Sponsor '17 '13 '11 '10

    Yes, I am ditching both the Hummel and heavy artillery and adding them to a supplement set.
    As of now I am going with a field hat with rifle and n36 helmet with pazerfaust.


  • Here’s the actual numbers of German vehicles sold to the Axis minors in toto (as best as I can find them), in order from most to least numerous:

    1. Panzer IV: 387
    2. StuG III: 252
    3. Panzer 35/38: 214
    4. Hetzer: 75
    5. Panzer III: 31
    6. SdKfz 222/223: 20
    7. Panzer I: 8
    8. Panther: 5
    9. Tiger I: 3

    The one pause this gives me is that there are alot fewer Panzer III’s than I had expected; I think that when I was just scanning over the lists, rather than taking the time to actually add them all up, I was seeing all the Panzer IV’s and StuGIII’s and mentally filling in more Panzer III’s than I should have.  Of course, these raw #'s don’t tell us which versions were being used.  And Panzer III’s were being used by 3/4 of the countries in question.  Still, the overall picture makes me think that maybe the Panzer IV is an even higher priority than the Panzer III, here.  (Though I know the Panzer III might be a more popular choice.)  Of course, if you do both and do them in German colors, you haven’t really lost anything, because the German-colored versions of the set could then also serve as a “supplement for the German supplement set”, and you wouldn’t have to do any of them in both…  But if I could find out for sure which Panzer IV version was more used by the minors, you could also do a different Panzer IV in both sets, one early short-barrel and one late long-barrel.  I suspect that the minors might have used the earlier version more, but I don’t know for sure.

    Have you decided on the  line-up for the German supplement set yet?


  • Ah, one thing that helps explain the prevalence of Panzer IV’s and the (relatively) low #'s of Panzer III’s is that the number of German vehicles purchased by the Axis minors rose sharply in the late war period, as these countries began to realize the their pre-war purchased and/or own designs couldn’t compete on the Eastern Front.  (Not to mention that the Hungarians and Romanians, whose divisions had been decimated at Stalingrad, probably had very few of these earlier vehicles left anyway…)  During this late-war period, the Germans also phased out the Panzer III altogether as a conventional tank, but continued to produce both StuG III’s and Panzer IV’s throughout the war.  This makes me think that my assumption about the minors using more early than late model Panzer IV’s may also be incorrect, but I don’t have the #'s to be sure.

  • Sponsor '17 '13 '11 '10

    I appreciate the time to look up these items.
    I have also been looking.
    Maybe I should supply Pz III and early war PzIV with minors, of course they are so similar.

    Look at this Dr !

    http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/romafv.html#Heading31


  • Yes, that looks like good information, there.  It seems to indicate that the late-war Panzer IV purchase were late-war models.  This seems to also be the case with the Hungarian 1944 purchase of 100 Panzer IV’s, though I’m not 100% about that because it seems the Germans often forced their allies to pay top dollar for new tanks and then sent them well-worn used tanks instead!  (No “Nazi Lend-Lease” program, that’s for sure!)

    Anyway, it makes me think that late-war Panzer IV’s might be a better choice and give more differentiation from Panzer III’s…

    On the other hand, the #'s we’re dealing with are small in all these cases: the Hungarians built more of their own designs (the Toldi & Turan series) and the Finns operated more captured Soviet tanks than either got from Germany!

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