Brainstorming: What's the best way to kill the Japanese Fleet?

[bugoo]

The most important unit the US can wield against Japan is the mighty transport.  If you liberate the islands it doesn’t matter if japan holds the mainland, there cash flow is cut in half and UK/US’s double.  Best build i’ve seen is 1 trannie, 1 DD, 3 subs, then either 1 trannie for africa or 1 more sub, or minus a sub and another bomber.  Then I like to land 2 figs + 1 bomber on Australia and make sure the UK moves its DD to SZ 48 and trannie to SZ 47 from Australia, this will block the japan trannies that hit the phillipeans from hitting Australia and may allow UK to grab an island on UK2.  You can also move your AC to SZ 46 to help threaten trannies.

Without it’s cash japan is no threat, with cash UK is a pain in Germany’s butt.

[Imperious Leader]

I suppose you can build 6 subs, but when Japan wipes all your American ships except the Carrier and DD in the corner…they too will build 6 subs on J2 to match and wait till you get in range so they can attack your subs at 2 when you defend at 1, plus they already got all the other goodies like 3 carriers BB and tons of fighters…

So if want to get after japan it will take a number of rounds to overcome her growing economy, when eventually the time will come to strike and Japan has more money, so its probably best for forget such ideas especially in 41.

Japan already owns the pacific after J1 and the Americans may even face a huge Japanese fleet that keeps killing the newly built forces right after they are placed.  It could be fun for japan however.

[Jennifer]

Going full bore into the Pacific is a great way to kill off the Japanese fleet and keep Japan under control.

Honestly, I’d go with carriers, destroyers and submarines in a good mix and not purely any one ship or another.

But that’s just my perspective.  Some say I have a knack for killing enemy fleets (Mollari and A44dog being two of them).

[Kavik Kang]

@Cmdr:

Going full bore into the Pacific is a great way to kill off the Japanese fleet and keep Japan under control.

Honestly, I’d go with carriers, destroyers and submarines in a good mix and not purely any one ship or another.

But that’s just my perspective.  Some say I have a knack for killing enemy fleets (Mollari and A44dog being two of them).

Just as in real life, the Carriers are the key to naval combat in A&A.  The 2 fighters per at 3/4 are the primary factor in who will win the fight.  Just like defending Moscow with 20 Infantry and 4 fighters, with the fighter hammering away as the infantry die, in naval defense the Carriers fighters will hammer away as the subs and DDs die.  So the backbone of a fleet in A&A is, appriately, 2 or 3 CVs (which is to say, 4 or 6 fighters).  The subs/DDs are mostly there just to die and let those fighters keep shooting.  A BB is usefull and I use the ones I start with, but I’d never spend the money to by a new one.  A CA’s 3 hammering away with the fighters as the subs and DDs die is good enough for me for half the price.

So I agree with you completely, and just thought I’d add a little more detail.  I love naval combat:-)

[axis_roll]

@Imperious:

I suppose you can build 6 subs, but when Japan wipes all your American ships except the Carrier and DD in the corner…they too will build 6 subs on J2 to match and wait till you get in range so they can attack your subs at 2 when you defend at 1, plus they already got all the other goodies like 3 carriers BB and tons of fighters…

Well the IJN needs some DD’s to get after your subs as the US Subs can just dive and ignore the Japanese subs if they want to.

[bugoo]

I really dont like carriers that much, maybe enough for starting fighters but not much more.  A loaded carrier costs 34 IPCs, gives you 3 hits, 7 offense, and 10 defense.  4 destroyers for 32 gives you 4 hits, 8 offense, and 8 defense.  Now the carrier is nice as it can strike 3 zones away with the fighters, but other than that I like 1-3, but that is it.  Especially with the US as you need all the offensive firepower you can get to offset japan’s defensive navy.

[Imperious Leader]

Well the IJN needs some DD’s to get after your subs

yes but they got one, but thats right they need at least one more

Subs are best for attack but only if you got the space to force the attack.

In 41 i build a factory for Manchuria on J1 and ignore both the USA BB and the Philippines and instead use the fighters for Buryatia: 3 fighters CA, 1 tank and 4 men

Reason is so i don’t get stuck having to worry so much about protecting transports and i got the jump on the Soviets and tank factory to wipe out the partisan Chinese riff raff.

The attacks just leave the carrier group and the BB and its not that much.

[souL]

To be fair, it’s hard to put a concrete plan on anything and say “well this will work.”

Anyway, throw money at them, and take what they give you.  They’re one nation… and in the end they’re the least likely one to receive any help.  They’ve already got a lot of goals and not enough units to do it all at once, it’s your job to figure out how to stretch that thin and eventually make it break.  R1 pile your inf in Bury with the intentions of invading Manchuria.  A few inf in Persia and building a tank in Caucusus with the intention of fortifying India during R2 will support India if you put up an IC there.  If the Japanese turn their attention to that gangpile first turn, they’re committing troops usually headed for other territories with much more money, and your guys are getting extreme amounts of value by rolling many dice together and rolling for their best number.

An aggressive US1 would be a good thing, too.  Essentially the first turn buy is right on.  Did the carriers stay in SZ 53?  If so, take everything you can at it… remember you’re America, you can throw money at your problems while Japan NEEDS to spread to compete.  If not, say SZ 53 is yours by running every surviving American boat there. Yes, they’ll probably die, but Japanese units will go with them.  Any boat that arrives SHOULD incur a nasty counter from the subs and bombers you’re hopefully building this turn. The Japanese only start with 1 DD, and if it’s not BB fodder on J1 it’s probably on the other side of the map… a few subs will go a long way in giving America operating room and are awfully good units against ACs, of which JP starts with 3.  Bombers and subs are a strong and cheap tandem for aggression.  Island hop.  Controlling a given island might be the difference in a bunch of air units entering a battle or not during a future turn, even if your fleet doesn’t remain there.

Britain is an often overlooked key… but establishing some way to get units to the Pacific theater is always a good start.  If SZ 35 fleet is alive–that can be 2 more units to Aus or Ind (via TJ or Egypt if you should be so lucky) for the IC or it could mean going to FIC/T to try to pick up that extra money.  Keep your DDs active immediately.  Sailing them away and around the world is safe and tempting, but as long as they’re not in range of the BB they’ve got a chance to take a unit with them.

Sometimes it’s just not possible for a 1st turn IC, but unless JP pulls off two perfect turns in a row and with few losses, one of Aus or Ind should be ready for an IC by GB2.  If they’re not, then you weren’t serious about KJF or had REALLY bad luck.  Hopefully by turn two’s end you’ve made him at least respect the Russian gangpile, but if he’s left Manchuria weak you’ve wrenched it from him.  The inf/arm combo in India is poised to make its march into south Asia.  The US has hopefully taken control of its home SZ by now and if it hasn’t secured the Carolines or Iwo Jima they’re at least threatening to do so.

Really, just take it case by case.  React to what your opponent’s given you to beat him with.

Hope this helps, and happy hunting.

[wodan46]

@Imperious:

I suppose you can build 6 subs, but when Japan wipes all your American ships except the Carrier and DD in the corner…they too will build 6 subs on J2 to match and wait till you get in range so they can attack your subs at 2 when you defend at 1, plus they already got all the other goodies like 3 carriers BB and tons of fighters…

And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs?  Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack.  If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.

I think it might be better though, to simply produce enough Subs that a single Destroyer can’t threaten them, but not so many Subs that the enemy masses Destroyers.

[jsp4563]

@Cmdr:

Going full bore into the Pacific is a great way to kill off the Japanese fleet and keep Japan under control.

Honestly, I’d go with carriers, destroyers and submarines in a good mix and not purely any one ship or another.

But that’s just my perspective.  Some say I have a knack for killing enemy fleets (Mollari and A44dog being two of them).

The woman is uncanny, I could attack her lone sub with every ship built since the dawn of time and she’d still win, that’s why I dubbed her “Die Flottenmörderin” (The Fleet Killer).  :-D

[Imperious Leader]

And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs?  Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack.  If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.

Thats the easy part.

Japan since on J1 they own the Pacific get to set up that picket line first because they enjoy space , while US player is stuck at his back line.

Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,

What does not get wiped out is dinner for the larger japanese fleet.

So to recap 1941 :

1)Japan cleans the pacific of allied ships except the carrier group in corner of map builds a factory

2)US player builds probably a bunch of subs off west coast

3)Japan on its J2 turn grabs rest of Asia Islands and India. They build mostly subs and 1 DD, fleet moved to Midway and Midway is taken

4. US spreads out one sub since they are too weak to attack fleet, but Japan can still shuck its builds to get to the fleet

5. US cant build any more fleet because the japanese will wipe it out, so they must recall all these picket subs to protect the builds

6. Japan sends its subs and its fleet to Wake Island and pickets Hawaii with its destroyer. Now the US fleet if it chooses to move one space closer than SZ 55 will be attacked by subs at 2 and the entire japanese fleet.

Im sure US has counters but japan with more pieces and more space will always have more counters.

4. America can move its subs forward

[Bardoly]

@Imperious:

And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs?  Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack.  If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.

Thats the easy part.

Japan since on J1 they own the Pacific get to set up that picket line first because they enjoy space , while US player is stuck at his back line.

Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,

What does not get wiped out is dinner for the larger japanese fleet.

So to recap 1941 :

1)Japan cleans the pacific of allied ships except the carrier group in corner of map builds a factory

2)US player builds probably a bunch of subs off west coast

3)Japan on its J2 turn grabs rest of Asia Islands and India. They build mostly subs and 1 DD, fleet moved to Midway and Midway is taken

So exactly how are you getting your fleet to Midway?

If you left all of the US fleet completely alone, then the US has 3 dd’s, 1 bb, 1 cv, 4 fig, 2 bmb, AND 6 subs to attack your 1 dd, 2 cv’s, 4 fig, 1 ca, and 1 bb at Midway.  As America, I will attack you like that every game.  I mean, if your going to let me build a navy in the Pacific, why shouldn’t I?

Killing America’s navy is more important than killing a few Russian infantry which are stopping you from building your turn 1 Manchurian IC.  If you must have a turn 1 IC, and Russia stacked Buryatia, then build it in Fic instead.

[Lucifer]

In the -41 scenario the best way to kill the Jap fleet is either play against a n00b, or get blessed by the dice gods  :-P

[murraymoto]

@Imperious:

And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs?  Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack.  If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.

Thats the easy part.
Japan since on J1 they own the Pacific get to set up that picket line first because they enjoy space , while US player is stuck at his back line.
Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,

May be talking about hitting the subs when they are together here, in 64, 59, or 58.

@wodan46:

Plan A and B both do this:
A1build: 6 Subs
A1move: Move fleet to WUS as usual, land 2 Fighters and 2 Bombers in Alaska, move Infantry to Canada, have British Infantry move to Alaska.

Plan A does this
A2build: 6 Subs, 1 Bomber
A2move: Consolidate fleet in either Sea Zone 64, 59, or 58, where-ever its least threatened.

If the subs moved to one of those three zones with surface ships they’d be vulnerable to Japanese attack.  If they went straight from 56 out to the other zones without consolidating that would keep the subs safer, but would leave a surface ship consolidation more vulnerable.

[wodan46]

@Imperious:

Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,

What does not get wiped out is dinner for the larger japanese fleet.

Once again, how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present?  If no Destroyers are present, then the American Sub immediately submerges, granting it immunity to all attacks, including other Subs.  If you did your plan, you would sink one American Sub, and the other 5 move to the Japanese Sea zone and kill everything there with air support, then rinse and repeat for the remainder of the game.  If you move your Subs back, they will accomplish little, seeing as THEY will be the ones on Defense, and they will get about one round of firing before the US airforce wipes out all the surface vessels.

This goes to show that not all people will provide the correct counter to this strategy, which is good.

@murraymoto:

@wodan46:

Plan A does this
A2build: 6 Subs, 1 Bomber
A2move: Consolidate fleet in either Sea Zone 64, 59, or 58, where-ever its least threatened.

If the subs moved to one of those three zones with surface ships they’d be vulnerable to Japanese attack.  If they went straight from 56 out to the other zones without consolidating that would keep the subs safer, but would leave a surface ship consolidation more vulnerable.

The consolidation of Subs is a trap.  If Japan brings a Destroyer, the US Subs get used as fodder and the Japanese force gets decimated.  If Japan does not bring a Destroyer, the US Surface fleet is lost, but the US Sub fleet survives to reach the Japanese Sea Zone, whereupon it is supported by the intact US Air force.

[bugoo]

You don’t have to kill the Jap fleet, merely force them to spend money in the pacific and get some IPCs for the UK.  If on turn 1 you build a trannie, on turn 2 you can move it to take Caroline Islands giving the UK 5 IPCs if the japs do not take it back, not that it is always a good idea to do so.  SZ 46 is the best place to rally your US fleet in my opinion as it allows you to strike out at the money islands, and is 3 zones away from japan while 2 from US.  Also, keep in mind that your ACs and bombers can help to defend your fleet as well as threaten Japan’s transports.  As far as the money difference if your putting everything from the US into the pacific you should be cashing in at 48 IPCs a round, that’s alot of money for Japan to match and build tanks to push on moscow/etc.

[Imperious Leader]

how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present?

subs cant attack subs w/o a DD?

I thought that was just for surface ships and planes attacking subs with no DD.

[jemo81]

@Imperious:

how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present?

subs cant attack subs w/o a DD?

I thought that was just for surface ships and planes attacking subs with no DD.

only destroyers can spot subs. nothing else. hence, subs can’t attack subs UNLESS the defender allows you to attack with your 2’s against his 1’s, which I guess won’t happen that often :)

[atarihuana]

u dont need to kill jap fleet, you just need to force him to move his fleet back to japan seazone ( to protect his new builds/ protect his main fleet) , then u can retake saome of the islands.

its all about controlling the center in pazifc. ( carolines, wake, philippines, okinawa).

moreover. if you put all your effort on killing jap fleet, you win the war at sea, but loose it on land. so u got to take away jap money in pazifk and give the brits some ( SOL 5 ipc, AUS 7 ipc ( if brits control med). harder targets are borneo, sumatra. (also good for JAP NO)

also with large fleets since a lot of subs are prolly involed, youll get trading battles to prevent attacking, since however attacks is at an advantage (since both sides prolly have some bombers)
so u put an DD between the fleets. if he clears it with a sub + planes, he isnt preventing your movement , so he needs to send an DD too.

[DarthMaximus]

I agree with all the people that have said you don’t need to kill the Japanese fleet just force it back to Sz 62.

I prefer AC + ftrs b/c you can threaten more sea zones.  Depending on where the J ACs and ftrs end up on J1, I may wait until US 2 to buy tons of ships so I’d go more air on US 1 (ftrs for a later AC) and a few inf so I can always shuck at least 2 inf to support the UK in the Atlantic.

If Sz 56 is fairly safe, you can buy 1 ac + 3 dds and have: 4 dds, 2 ac, 4 ftrs all in Sz 56 at the end of US 1.  Japan needs an awful lot of ftrs in range to even threaten that and they likely won’t since most gear up for potential strikes on Ind or Aus as early as rd 2.  4 dds, 2 ac, 4 ftrs is essentially even with a 9-10 ftr attack, so again you are pretty safe in most cases.

After that, in Rd 2 is when I drop some subs and more dds for fodder.  You’ll probably have ~48 to spend so that is 8 subs, 6 dds, or 4 subs 3 dds.  You might need one more turn (rd 3) of surface ships (subs + dds, probaly good to get a trn now), before you can go back to AC + air.  You can probably go to Sol by US 4 and from here you just need to time your later moves right and wait for the right opportunity.  By rd 6 or so Japan should be pretty well confined to the Northern seazones and out of range of anything at Sol or EI, except for air only but 4-5 ACs and 8-10 ftrs + a few DDs is plenty for air only defense.

It does take patience and time so you need to be on your game with Rus and UK b/c it is pretty much just those two against a pretty strong Germany/Ita.  You won’t see the effects of the US build up until after rd 6 or so.