From a pure IPC point of view, yes, the NOs are off.  However, when one looks at what they force the teams to do I feel they even out a bit better.

For example, if your not playing with NOs, trading france each turn is not a big deal esp with italy helping, however with NOs france becomes the most valuable territory in the game from an IPC point of view if you can hold it. (16 for allies, 11-16 for axis)

Also, without NOs when the allies land in Africa its not a big deal, with NOs it is a pita for italy.

With NOs you have a larger desire to hit Egypt G1 to keep UK’s income down, without NOs it is not that big of a deal.

And let us not forget FIC, which i’ve found to be easy to take for a turn as UK on turn 1 to get my NO, then just grab carolinas with one side or the other.

And the second Russian NO isn’t easy to get, but it can be done if you grab Norway and Finland with UK then just look for an opening.

All in all I feel the game is slightly in the allied favor without NOs, balanced with.

Assuming the UK pulls back out of africa you’d be better off with italy grabbing gibralter so you can go INTO the med on G2.  Then you can even only send what you need, do an italian strafe on turn 2 against cario and nab it turn 3 with Germany if italy fails.

Couple of things then.  On G1 purchase a carrier, and send 1 sub to the SZ 112 battle with your battleship/cruiser.  This way if the UK does not buy a good number of men for london you can buy all transports on G2 and sealion.  It is not your intention to sealion, but simply to slow them down.

As Japan a major factory in Hongkong will pay off big time for you and allow you to outnumber the british.  Another dirty trick in the J1 attack is to loose a plane or two in Yunnan so that China will have a dicey battle taking it back.  Also put a good sized stack of planes in Kwangsi on J1 so that if china builds up in Szechwan you can smack 'em with pure air.  This will cripple china.  As for defending against the US, subs mate.  Build a good sized stack of subs up in SZ 6.  Using them with your large airforce will allow you to more effectively defend your ill goten gains.  The key though is not to be afraid to lose a few airplanes to put the pain on the allies.  Also, if the US is leaving you alone a J2 major factory in Kiangsi is a good play, then just pump 10 mech a turn and you WILL push back the UK and nab India.

As for the Russian front.  One fun thing to do with the major in Romania is to pump out mech inf.  Push the russians back with italian help, your goal in the south is holding Ukraine.  From there, with the Italians, you threaten a can opener that can hit Moscow or the southern factory.  Alternately, push hard in the north with huge stacks of units.  On G2 upgrade the berlin factory to a major while placing 10 inf/art in W. Germany along with 6 in berlin.  Then on each and every turn place atleast 10 in berlin, along with a smattering of mechs from behind and eventually you will push Russia back.  Let Italy just pump out the hordes of men.

Another dirty trick, planes are the best boat killers for the buck, and fighters not bombers are the better buy in this case.  Try to buy 1 fig a turn if you can.  If the allies are threatening Italy hard slap an airbase on Sicily to force them to enter the med within airplane range.

Go for the money.  Each nation has a ‘target’ region where she will get the largest economic boosts and should go for that while helping out her allies.

Germany = Northern Russia/Russia.  Go after Novgorod and hold on to Norway.  Slowly push russia back with your chosen advantage (mobility, unit count, larger airforce, whichever route you take).

Italy = Mediterranean.  Keep your fleet intact, smash Egypt and get both of your NOs.  Assist germany in southern Russia if your able.

Japan = India/DEI.  Take DEI, hold it, and push toward India while smashing China and stealing some Russian territories.

Now the allies have huge ‘swing’ power.  As in they can bring a large amount of there income against one side of the board or the other.  However, the axis have the advantage as the allies are terribly positioned.  If they go hard at one side or the other you should go after your secondary objectives once your primary is reached, focising on assisting your struggling ally.

Germany = Go after the UK.  If you are being ignored at start to hit the 60s in income compared to Russia being in the 20s, its time to start gearing up for sea lion mate.  Also, get some subs on the board and start going after the good old convoy zones.  Without a large US commitment you can control the Atlantic.  And Japan is one of the hardest nuts to crack so don’t overly worry.

Italy = Middle East.  Push toward India from the backside, also opening up a second front against Russia and stealing UK monies.

Japan = Middle East/Africa/Southern Russia.  Bloat your income by stealing some ANZAC stuff, Pearl, etc.  Then push to help out in holding Egypt, Africa, and maybe even Volgograd to get your allies some more money.  A turtling germany/italy can make a crapton of units to hold the UK/US at bay.

These are just generalized suggestions, you should speak a bit more on what the allies are doing to win the games.

Germany starts with 2 guys up there, gets 4 for activating Finland, plus can transport 2 first round.  Assuming said transport survives until turn 4 lets say, thats another 6 guys for a total of 14 troops up there when the US comes knocking.  Those guys normally do not advance in my games unless they are needed, they sit in Finland as a threat to Russia.

A simple carrier buy lets you threaten sea lion to keep UK honest turn 1.  Then you simply move back to the baltic if you have too, possibly adding a destroyer and a smattering of subs as you go.  In the baltic your boats are pretty difficult to get too.

You start with 8 planes, should loose 2 at most on turn 1.  You can easily purchase a plane a turn or so.  Combined with a sub or two the UK/US is forced to have a respectable fleet to do landings.

Italy should hit 30 income around turn 2.  Thats 10 ground troops to help cover and allows you to make difficult to kill stacks.

Germany has 3 production in france, 3 in Normady, and 10 right next door.  It is very easy to place a few troops a turn there to build up and incase of a large threat do a large drop the turn before.

There are two main ways to threaten Russia, either with numbers or mobility and your income allows you to choose.  Mech infantry with Italian can openers are extremely deadly, there 4 IPC blitzers in that regard.  Ukraine is a great place for a large stack of 'em.  Alternately, you can send 15+ inf/art at 'em and simply out produce them.  They will start to loose money fast once war is declared between Germany, Italy, and Japan wailing on 'em.

AA40e bugoo vs jim 01bUK.AAM

@LHoffman:

@bugoo:

Lets keep some perspective here.  US can only take territory on turn 4 if the axis want it that way.  So turn 5 they build the factory, turn 6 it starts producing units.

Sorry I’m not seeing it.  I can’t see how they can take and hold it by then against a decent german player.  And if the allies are throwing the kitchen sink in the north, then Italy gets to roam free in the middle east.  It could be a powerful strat, but I don’t see it being overpowered.  No more so than gunning for Italy hardcore.

The only person who needs to throw the sink in at Norway is the US. Britain can focus wherever she pleases or wherever is helpful. If the US doesn’t enter the war until turn 4 then that means India will like wise be a fortress and can likely send some help to the Middle East. And even if the US isn’t in the war until turn 4, they’ll be ready to go with a factory in Norway and hit the ground running. Considering that Germany will generally not attack the USSR until turn 3… welll then, there is plenty of time for a factory to be useful. Germany cannot take Moscow by turn 5. They can barely take Leningrad or Stalingrad by that time. The war should be no where near over by turn 5.

Actually the UK is hard pressed to keep Italy honest alone, esp in the face of a G1 carrier buy.  Italy will take egypt etc, its just a question of how long they hold it.

As far as India being a ‘fortress’ in the case of a turn 3 war dec?  Again not really.  They are missing out on 5 IPCs turn 1, and 10 on turn 2 in the case of a J3 war dec from NOs they would get in pacific.  Yeah they’ll have a stack of Inf, big deal.  Russia will be delt with, china will nearly be dead and Russia will start having to worry about her backdoor from china or get thin against Germany, and Japan still has as many planes as the UK has infantry.  Your looking at 16 turn 1 (5 inf) 24 turn 2 (8 inf), and your turn 3 income will go back down to the low teens at the most after you buy 27 (9) inf.  Thats what, 5+8+6+9 = 28 inf, +4 from malanya if your lucky.  Big deal, Japan has 28 planes.

And I’m saying at earliest turn 5.  I typically have a stack of germans in the north for much longer in case of that, not to mention an insane stack of planes so good luck holding it that early.  And I’m starting to see the value in a german finland factory.

But, as Jim would say, if your up for a game send me a message and we’ll get one going  :evil:

Lets keep some perspective here.  US can only take territory on turn 4 if the axis want it that way.  So turn 5 they build the factory, turn 6 it starts producing units.

Sorry I’m not seeing it.  I can’t see how they can take and hold it by then against a decent german player.  And if the allies are throwing the kitchen sink in the north, then Italy gets to roam free in the middle east.  It could be a powerful strat, but I don’t see it being overpowered.  No more so than gunning for Italy hardcore.

Actually yes, I do believe it was designed for sea lion to be a possibility, maybe not this high in odds but yes.  And no, I don’t think it breaks the game yet.

Remember all the Gencon posts of UK falling and Russia liberating it?  I have no clue how on earth that would work, but it seems likely that it was expected to happen.

G1 major IC in Romania.  G2 upgrade minor in berlin.  Pump out the troops?

Nah no clue sorry mate.  But I do think the key is killing Russia quickly before the US gets heavily involved.

@jim010:

I may alter this a bit.

It occured to me to change a couple details (b/c of bugaboo!)

But as IL said - I can buy the CV and watch what happens.

Only da wife is allowed to call me that Jim!  :evil:

But I guess that just means I have to find more ways to counter.  I don’t see this ever becoming like the India crush, maybe the turn 1 pearl, but never the India crush.

And in all honesty, balance wise AA does pretty well when you take into account all the variables.

Revised required a what, 7 IPC bid?  A change of perhaps 1% to create perfect balance.  AA42 is considered balanced.  AA50 is in the same camp as revised to some, balanced to others.

Pacific has such a huge swing factor due to the design to begin with.  Not only is it a 1 v 4, but the starting TUV/unit count is massive and extremely mobile.  Combine that with all the options of war dec turns, targets to go after, etc, and I’m not surprised at all with the balance issues.

As far as electronic playtesting I only suggest it because TripleA custom maps tend to get pretty well balanced fairly quickly, but that is mainly from the speed in which you can play and test strats with it and lower testing cost.  I also know as long as GTO (the true evil one in the entire C&D debacle, and a place I equate with a similar level of distaste right now as ubisoft) has the digital rights this will never happen.

The largest problem that crops up in a ‘revision’ is everyone has there own ideas and preferences.  For example when I play pacific I just move the caroline fleet to Iwo and take 8 planes from both sides and the game is fine.  But a weak china and struggling ANZAC do not bother me in the least as I see it as Japan vs US and friends.  Whereas others would love to see a powered up china and other things.  And this is also why the ‘bid’ balance is such a great thing as it allows you to ‘fix’ it yourself.

Lastly, sea-lion is debunked now IMHO and can only work with really good luck with the dice since you can bring 3 units from africa to London.  And thats without even going into if loosing the UK at the cost of Germany’s entire income/starting units breaks the game debate.