“the attacker doesn’t LOSE much…” hate ? in edits
G1 Carrier Build
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Thanks for the responses! I’m still not quite convinced…
On spending the 30IPC on ground forces against Russia:
While I agree that ART/MEC/ARM are better ground forces against Russia - I think INF are a better first turn build. ART can be built on G2, arriving in time for Moscow but kept safe from the small attack/counter attack battles that take place in pushing Russia out of Leningrad and Ukraine. ARM and MEC are best built on G2-5, since they can catch up. I digress though: the important aspect here is spending on land forces against Russia vs spending on naval units.Any inf/art placed down in Berlin will take an additional 5 turns to get to Moscow. That means any G2+ inf/art buys in Berlin will arrive after the Soviet Far East forces could potentially return home. Unless economic parity is attained and maintained, the axis chances of victory will decrease each round they fail to win. IMO, the axis must be in position to win by Rd 8 or very shortly thereafter. While they are cheap, I don’t really think Germany can afford to be buying slow movers to push into Moscow past G1 unless you’re building them in captured factories.
Germany does start with a bunch of infantry, so I’m not sure more infantry are needed. If nothing else, get arty to boost your existing infantry plus all the planned mech builds that will be rolling off the factories G2+.
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You are trying to say that units bought after G1 can’t reach Moscow before the eastern units potentially arrive so therefore not buying art is a missed opportunity?
With all the IPCs Germany gets G1, if the G2 buy has 10 art placed in Berlin they will make a much bigger contribution to an attack than 6 inf from the East. If supplemented by a 9 inf buy it seems to break even on paper wrt first round power.
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Art built on G1 can reach Eastern Poland on G3 and Belarus on G4. The 10 extra attack power of 6 art+2 inf compared with 10 inf might tip the scales to force the Russians to step back away from contact. If you can get him to turtle down to Moscow, that opens up the Caucasus and Middle East oilfields, a major game changer. It is rare, but not impossible, that the 4 extra defense power of 10 inf will prevent a Russian counter-strike as you approach his stack.
Art built on G2 reach Belarus on G5. By that time the Russians have an extra full turn to reinforce the front and you might not be able to push back the defenses if they had been sufficient to hold the previous turn. G4 vs G5 is a huge difference in benefit. Depending on the Russian’s decision on the Siberian forces, they might be back in Moscow by G7 and G8. A single round of delay will allow 6-20 additional defenders in the Capitol. Add in a further 3 or 4 allied fighters landing in Moscow and the slight delay will turn a good chance of dominating victory into an unreasonable risk. Each game is different but this scenario happens quite frequently.
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A lot of interesting thoughts!
I personally don’t really get the carrier purchase. The main argument for carrier + 2 TT’s is to be serious about sealion. But people keep writing, that if London falls, USA will almost always take it back. I have not enough experience to know anything about that.
I can see some meaning with the TT’s though.
It shows your intent to land in london, which may scare the UK player to keep his planes in defence instead of crushing italian fleet. But why not use the TT’s to offload in Sovjet, preferably Leningrad? In that way, you can move a lot of infantry waaay faster. If the Sovjet player is smart, he can hold this maneuver back the first round, but then you can do it in the second round after DOW on SovjetA&A is a moneygame. To have a strong fleet is wishful, no doubt. But controlling the atlantic is not changing the income balance. It’s a fact the allies start out with about 67% of total IPC income, this can be changed to a 60/40 within the 1 round, when Ger takes out french economy, Japan decimates China and maybe USSR depending on tactics, and USA is not being brought in to the game.
2. round: If you want to change the IPC balance, going for Sovjet will help. I’ve played only one game of G40, and represented Sovjet, so maybe I have missed something.
But from a Sovjet perspective, Germany has so much coming. You kind of have to prioritize what to defend. Since you want to prevent as many German bonusses as possible, it makes more sense to give up Leningrad instead of opening up in the south, where axis players gets bonuses for Stalingrad, Caucasus, has factories in Ukraine as well, and gets access to the middle east, where axis also gets bonusses. damnBack to german perspective. TT’s makes it look like a threat against london, but could be used for landing troops in northern russian territories, backed by the finnish reinforcements, and changes IPC Balance.
But the carrier? It doesn’t do much by laying around in the baltic sea. sure it can keep planes on it for defensive reasons - but you don’t win a game where you so economically behind, by playing defensively…
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@Arthur:
Art built on G2 reach Belarus on G5. By that time the Russians have an extra full turn to reinforce the front and you might not be able to push back the defenses if they had been sufficient to hold the previous turn. G4 vs G5 is a huge difference in benefit. Depending on the Russian’s decision on the Siberian forces, they might be back in Moscow by G7 and G8. A single round of delay will allow 6-20 additional defenders in the Capitol. Add in a further 3 or 4 allied fighters landing in Moscow and the slight delay will turn a good chance of dominating victory into an unreasonable risk. Each game is different but this scenario happens quite frequently.
For clarity:
If the Russian far east infantry head straight home, 6 INF arrive on R6 and 12 INF + 2 AA on R7.
INF/ART built on G2 in Berlin can reach Moscow by G7 - a turn ahead of the bulk of the far east units.Germany is incredibly powerful offensively, between it’s armor and it’s air, but somewhat weaker on defense. My experience with Barbarossa is that it is, oddly, primarily a defensive struggle for Germany. Germany must figure out how to push forward continuously and apply pressure in several directions without opening itself up to Russian counter attacks that delay it or destroy vulnerable armor while it’s airforce is landed elsewhere and it’s forces are split.
Plenty of attack power can be achieved for Moscow (with a 10 inf G1 buy):
For a G6 attack: G2-3 armor/mec purchases
For a G7 attack: G2 10xART build in Berlin followed by armor/mec purchases on G3-4.In the turns leading up to Moscow, however, the extra infantry are more helpful than artillery in making Russian counter attacks unattractive or exchanged in Germany’s favor.
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My experience with Barbarossa, limited as it is (I am a full time grad school student and full time employee, so I don’t have a lot of time to play anymore) is that it is better to have Italy grab territories and use the Germans to reinforce.
I believe the loophole still exists that Germany doesn’t have to be at war to reinforce Italian held Russian territories too. So there’s at least one round of that if you organize right.
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@Cmdr:
I believe the loophole still exists that Germany doesn’t have to be at war to reinforce Italian held Russian territories too. So there’s at least one round of that if you organize right.
It still exists in 2nd Ed but not in BM2.0.
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@Cmdr:
I believe the loophole still exists that Germany doesn’t have to be at war to reinforce Italian held Russian territories too. So there’s at least one round of that if you organize right.
It still exists in 2nd Ed but not in BM2.0.
Gotcha. BM came out after I started my graduate degree, so I am far from well versed in it.
Anyway, it wasn’t a “huge” loophole, at best you got an extra round of IPC for the objective because a smart Russia would just declare on Germany on their next turn.
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Retaining control of Norway (and Denmark) and Finland means 10 IPC per round for G.
I believe it’s harder to maintain control of them with no CV-purchase G1? UK can just sink your puny fleet UK1.
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Against a determined Allied effort, Germany cannot retain control of Norway without turning back some forces from Russia. It’s more profitable to let the Allies have Norway once they mount sufficient force and use the forces that you would use for recapturing Norway to capture Moscow instead. Once Moscow falls, the Allies cannot hold Norway against a half-determined German effort.
I would build the carrier only for specific purposes, such as sending it to the Med or using it to support Sea Lion (or other nefarious plans for attack). I would not spend German IPCs to build a carrier for defense – those IPCs are better spent killing Moscow.
Marsh
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The idea would be to maintain control of those territories for as long as possible. Again it’s 10 IPC’s a round for G.
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It should be relatively easy to retain control of Scandinavia for the first four rounds. One transport + 10 planes is enough to obliterate a small landing force. The big trouble is when the Americans land 4-8 ground units and UK reinforces with a bunch of planes. I don’t know how a carrier build will stop this anyway since you don’t want to get into an Atlantic naval race with the USA. That is assured defeat for the Axis.
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With a J1 or J2 DOW, the USA can land 6 ground troops on Norway on USA3. I guess a CV can block SZ125 although so does a DD blocker in SZ124. Someone managed to do that to me once and I think I diverted the force to Normandy.
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I think we all know the importance of adding a warship (DD Carrier) to the Baltic fleet, and keeping the German BB alive. It forces the UK to drop ground units on London in the first turn, and may or may not deter Taranto.
Besides the threat to London in order to keep a viable naval presence in the Baltic I think you need to keep the BB alive, and add either a dd or carrier to the fleet, and at least one more tpt. If you intend to lose the BB then a carrier for sure. When you look to amphib Leningrad w/o a BB adding anything the Russians could scramble and kill your mini fleet (if in position). If you buy nothing (have only a CA and BB) and amphib Leningrad the Russians could potentially attack your fleet with sub and air after you land and kill off the fleet. I know that Russia risking air is never a good thing for them, but if they kill that mini fleet the Western Allies can make landings in Scandinavia (taking away the German NO), and get ftrs into Moscow easier. Opening up a second front and losing that NO early is devastating for the Germans. The Germans don’t want to be fighting the W Allies up there early.
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Wild Bill, are you suggesting that Germany always build a destroyer on G1?
If so, that would leave Germany 22 IPCs. How would you spend that? Four artillery and two infantry? Four artillery and a tank?
Marsh
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Believe he was saying if you build a carrier then you should also build a destroyer leaving Germany 6 IPC.
I agree. However, I am not sure building fleet round 1 is the best solution. Not saying it isn’t, just saying I am not sure it is.
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@Marshmallow:
Wild Bill, are you suggesting that Germany always build a destroyer on G1?
If so, that would leave Germany 22 IPCs. How would you spend that? Four artillery and two infantry? Four artillery and a tank?
Marsh
Like I said I’m a firm believer it is in Germany’s best interest to preserve the navy they start with, add a war ship (dd or carrier), plus a transport or two at some point. With that said because I’m going to buy navy I would buy at least 1 warship G1 to give the UK notice. A dd fills the bill for me because it helps protect your Baltic fleet. You can still do a hit and run on sz111 w/bb, and retreat to sz112, but it is pretty risky w/UK counter attack (you have to kill the sz91 cruiser for sure). Of course it is better to buy a carrier if you hit and run.
I would leave the tank for later, but yea prob couple art and maybe a bmr (I like to SBR London hard G2). Could be dd, tpt, 3 art, 1 inf or any combo or save some.
If you build a carrier G1, then you don’t have to worry to much about a Russian attack. Buying a DD instead would also be fine in my book, because you can kill Russian sub(s).
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I like the strafe on SZ111 with the BB too. The UK dBat can’t normally survive but even if it does, then what? It’s probably spent a few turns reaching the naval base in SZ106 and is out of position.
Re: SZ91 Cruiser. That requires stripping two subs out of the other attacks. Is it worth it? If UK doesn’t scramble, it has 3ftrs, DD, SB, dBat and the cruiser (perhaps two) to throw at you. You have DD, dBat, Cruiser, 3plane scramble. UK has the edge in this battle I guess. Interesting.
An alternative is to send a second sub to SZ111 but that gives good odds for a scramble in both sea zones which probably isn’t what you want as Germany.
Perhaps you can look at it like this: if the Cruiser comes after SZ112 then they can’t really do Taranto without a bid which makes it a victory in itself.
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Yea I like the sz111 strafe, and that’s probably why I prefer a carrier build G1. No way UK hits sz112, and a carrier could allow you to hit the dBB if it runs to Iceland w/air cover (comes w/risk). However with only a dd build G1 the sz 112 counter attack for UK is about 40% w/no cruiser (70% w/a cruiser). Up side is there would be no Taranto raid, and there is much more risk to UK if sz112 counter attack fails, plus they are killing off the couple ships they have left in the Atlantic (you don’t have to hunt down the dBB it is coming to you).
Of course if there is a unit bid then everything goes out the window, and why bother discussing opening round strats? That’s why I prefer an IPC bid to starting income, or seek a standardized at set up bid. With a varying unit placement bid at set up theoretically the allies could change just about every opening battle the Germans/Italians or even the Japanese have (via boosting defense, or bolstering attacks or counter attacks).
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curious…whats the strategy here
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