• '20

    Hey, everyone,

    I have a question about @trulpen’s G2 DoW. He mentions that, for G2, the “stack in the Baltic” can be further strengthened (noncombat move) by 2-3 tanks and 6 infantry by transport.

    At the end of G1, we would have 3 transports in SZ112. Where is @trulpen getting the infantry and tanks to stack? These 3 transports could grab 6 infantry from Finland (but this seems a bit of a waste, as they are already near the front), but otherwise there are no units nearby. Moreover, the transports only carry up to 6 units, so where are we getting these additional 2-3 tanks from?

    The details of the strategy are copied below, with the subject of interest in bold:

    "trulpen’s Save the Bismarck and push for a G2 DOW on Russia [OOB G40 2nd]

    I’ve been looking for a way for Germany to save its battleship and at the same time aim for a G2 DOW against Russia. I believe there is a significant strategical gain with a G2 DOW instead of G3, but Germany needs the muscles to show. This is what I’ve (with help of critical input from @barnee, @simon33, @taamvan, @aequitas-et-veritas and @Argothair regarding a crazy idea of a G1 ab in Holland) come up with:

    Purchase (30 IPC)

    Sz112: 2 tr, 1 ac - 30

    Combat moves

    1 sub sz103, 1 sub sz108, 1 fig Holland, 2 fig, 3 tac W Ger, 2 sb Ger -> sz110 -> W Ger

    1 sub sz118, 1 sub sz124, 1 bs sz113, 1 fig Norway, 1 tac Ger -> strafe sz111 -> sz112

    4 inf, 2 art, 3 tank Holland, 3 tank S Ger, 3 inf, 1 art, 4 mech W Ger -> France -> W Ger

    6 inf, 2 art S Ger, 1 inf Romania, 1 fig Slovakia, 1 tac Poland -> strafe Yugoslavia -> Romania, 1 fig Tobruk, 1 tac S Italy

    Non-combat moves

    1 sub sz117 -> sz124

    1 cr, 1 tr sz114 -> sz112

    2 inf Denmark -> W Ger

    3 inf Norway -> Finland +4 inf

    1-2 aa W Ger -> Ger

    1 inf Romania -> Bulgaria +4 inf

    2 inf Slovakia -> Poland

    1 tank Poland -> Slovakia

    11 inf, 3 art, 3 aaa Ger -> Poland

    Analysis

    Now a stack in the Baltic can be strengthened by 2-3 tanks and 6 inf by transport, making a Russian counter-attack there in R2 highly dubious even if maximized. At the same time entering Bessarabia with the small contingent from Romania should be fitting, immediately putting pressure on two fronts.

    To follow up the pressure on Leningrad, the G2-buy can be 1 des in sz 113, 10 land units (like 6 inf and 4 art) in Ger and 2 sb in W Ger.

    Germany wants to get the bombing of Russian factories going asap. In G2 Germany can bomb the Ukrainian mIC with 1 sb (and also in G3, unless Italy did it as well). In G3 the (hopefully 3-4) sb’s can support the attack on Leningrad (if not abandoned) while setting up for bombing Moscow from either the Baltic, E Poland or Bessarabia, whichever is the safest place to be stationed. More bombers should follow.

    Also the German Navy has three objectives in G2. The first is to hunt down any remaining British Navy from sz 111, the second to wipe out the Russian cruiser in the Baltic Sea (whether blocking in sz 114 or staying in sz 115) and the third is to plant a sub in sz 125. Not certain all three are attainable, in which case the priority order is as mentioned.

    The 1-2 aa’s from W Ger might be needed back home when the defense is rather weak, especially in G3. They are simply better for defense than attack and 3 aa’s on the eastern front should suffice, with one going north and two south."

    TIA!


  • @Flying-Tigerz, thanks for the question! I’ll try and look into this and get back to you.

  • '20

    Thanks @trulpen! The guides you’ve posted have really helped me improve my game; your efforts are much appreciated!

  • '20

    @trulpen would you also care to elaborate on what you would do if the BS from SZ111 survived?

    You mention that top priority is hunting down UK navy (in this example, that’d constitute the battleship from SZ111, units from SZ109, and the units off Canada). If you send your navy out to remove this threat, you ignore the Russian navy and preclude the use of the transports to support the Baltic States. Even if you wiped out the cruiser with planes (definitely doable), you’d be sending the transports east while the rest of your navy goes west (after the UK ships). This guarantees that your 3 transports will then be wiped out by the Allies.

  • 2021 '20

    @Flying-Tigerz the BS from 111 is meant to survive. You strafe it with your stuff, meaning you attack then retreat.

  • '20

    @WindowWasher I agree that, for G1 purposes, the UK BS is meant to survive. But how would you go about killing it in G2?

    Suppose, for example, that you follow @trulpen’s strategy. Following G1, the British will still have a destroyer and transporter at both SZ109 and SZ106 as well as the cruiser on SZ91. Moreover, if the UK didn’t scramble, they will have 3 planes at the ready. UK could easily move the battleship to SZ 118 and then use those two destroyers/the cruiser to block the Germans (in SZ110 and SZ111, for example). In this way, the British save the battleship for use later on.

    It sounds like hell trying to chase all that down, imo.

  • 2021 '20

    @Flying-Tigerz thats a question for @trulpen. I have no idea, i dont buy german boats, trying it for first time now

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18

    @Flying-Tigerz

    Hmm…I vaguely remember something about this. It looks as if the Eastern Front panzers are gonna hit Baltic states with the 6 inf coming in trprts.

    However if they’re blocking 114 with the CA I don’t think you can do it. My memory of the rules are a little hazy here though. Since it’s an initial DOW you may still be able to load and move as opposed to when you are already at war which you can’t. But I’m not 100% sure about that.

  • '20

    @barnee Thanks for the reply. The cruiser could be dealt with by German or Italian planes, and then the transports (and rest of the navy?) could move into SZ 114 to offload in the noncombat move.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @Flying-Tigerz do you have a Link from the orig. post?

  • '20

    @aequitas-et-veritas I sure do!

    Link: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/19929/germany-playbook-overall-strategy-guide/198

    It’s on page 8 of the stickied German playbook. @trulpen has a few other strategies there as well.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @Flying-Tigerz ahh, good. I appreciate it.


  • @Flying-Tigerz said in Trulpen's G2 DoW Analysis:

    I have a question about @trulpen’s G2 DoW. He mentions that, for G2, the “stack in the Baltic” can be further strengthened (noncombat move) by 2-3 tanks and 6 infantry by transport.
    .
    At the end of G1, we would have 3 transports in SZ112. Where is @trulpen getting the infantry and tanks to stack? These 3 transports could grab 6 infantry from Finland (but this seems a bit of a waste, as they are already near the front), but otherwise there are no units nearby. Moreover, the transports only carry up to 6 units, so where are we getting these additional 2-3 tanks from?

    First I want to reiterate that I’m very happy that you’ve found use of my guides and even put forth questions about them.

    I also have to confess that I constructed these more or less as a noob. However, I am a chess-player, rather analytical and put my heart into it, so hopefully the ideas presented are not completely worthless.

    These guides are also presented with OOB in mind. It was just before I entered the League and I hadn’t tried out BM3 yet. I sometimes play OOB, but mostly BM3 now-a-days.

    In any case, to answer your question, it’s pretty simple. The tanks are the eastern ones. My idea was to strafe Yugo, maybe using one tank for the mission. The prefered attacking power should be 21 or less. In this scenario it really sucks to get those troops stuck in Yugo, but they really just aim to soften the area for the italians and get a quick move (2 steps) from GSG to Romania. Simply a great move for a G2DOW!

    The inf comes, as you state, from Finland. Might seem like a waste since they’re already just two steps away from Leningrad. The point though is that they are needed to keep the Baltic stack intact. You really don’t want to see the ruskijs wipe it out. Also, the 6 inf are more stable in a large stack. The russians may successfully hit troops in Vyborg and/or Karelia, and we don’t want that either. Atleast not if there are more than 1 in there. The problem is that Russia can position itself in a way that intrusion in that area becomes rather awkward. With the trannie-move, those problems are simply solved in a way.

    Well, that was my idea atleast. 🙂


  • @barnee said in Trulpen's G2 DoW Analysis:

    @Flying-Tigerz

    Hmm…I vaguely remember something about this. It looks as if the Eastern Front panzers are gonna hit Baltic states with the 6 inf coming in trprts.

    However if they’re blocking 114 with the CA I don’t think you can do it. My memory of the rules are a little hazy here though. Since it’s an initial DOW you may still be able to load and move as opposed to when you are already at war which you can’t. But I’m not 100% sure about that.

    Yes, that’s a possible way. Another is to simply crush that pesky cruiser with italian air.

  • '20

    @trulpen Thank you for the detailed response! Pretty amazing guides to be made when you were a “noob”; they are well thought out!

    While I have you here, if you failed to strafe Yugoslavia, you’re “sneaky Italy-2 DoW” seems like a great backup. Why do you recommend 10 infantry be purchased in G2 instead of mech and tanks? G2 purchase of infantry will always be a spot behind the Germans (unless they get held up by something). Wouldn’t mechanize infantry and tanks be more valuable for that push to Russia?

    Thanks again!


  • @Flying-Tigerz said in Trulpen's G2 DoW Analysis:

    @trulpen Thank you for the detailed response! Pretty amazing guides to be made when you were a “noob”; they are well thought out!

    While I have you here, if you failed to strafe Yugoslavia, you’re “sneaky Italy-2 DoW” seems like a great backup. Why do you recommend 10 infantry be purchased in G2 instead of mech and tanks? G2 purchase of infantry will always be a spot behind the Germans (unless they get held up by something). Wouldn’t mechanize infantry and tanks be more valuable for that push to Russia?

    Thanks again!

    You are very much right about that. 6 inf is good though, for the trannies. Mech is actually the golden unit for Germany. Tanks are of course great, but expensive. You should definitely have a lot more mechs than tanks. Great for the stack while being able to purchase other goods.

    I would also say that in OOB the sneaky I2DOW is stronger than the G2DOW. Only problem is if Russia blocks with enough for Italy to fail the can-opening, but on the other hand that’s not a real problem, because Italy may just abstain from trying and then Germany crushes valuable russian units.


  • @Flying-Tigerz said in Trulpen's G2 DoW Analysis:

    Combat moves
    .
    4 inf, 2 art, 3 tank Holland, 3 tank S Ger, 3 inf, 1 art, 4 mech W Ger -> France -> W Ger

    I believe I noticed a discrepancy, which should be implicit, but there is no air hitting Paris in this scenario, so no air from there landing in WG during NCM. Won’t go into the guide and correct that though.


  • @Flying-Tigerz said in Trulpen's G2 DoW Analysis:

    @WindowWasher I agree that, for G1 purposes, the UK BS is meant to survive. But how would you go about killing it in G2?

    Suppose, for example, that you follow @trulpen’s strategy. Following G1, the British will still have a destroyer and transporter at both SZ109 and SZ106 as well as the cruiser on SZ91. Moreover, if the UK didn’t scramble, they will have 3 planes at the ready. UK could easily move the battleship to SZ 118 and then use those two destroyers/the cruiser to block the Germans (in SZ110 and SZ111, for example). In this way, the British save the battleship for use later on.

    It sounds like hell trying to chase all that down, imo.

    Not really. Germany got plenty of air and can get immediate use for the ac. That’s also a reason why I actually prefer the purchase of sub, des, ac in G1; you have two extra ships to clean up the broken remnants of the glorious British Navy. Especially the sub is great for this purpose.

    I’d say that the 14 IPC invested in the 2 tr has better use with the sub and des, while aiming to push mechs from Berlin instead of inf by tr.

    The 2 tr-buy is actually a signal that G might prepare for an early Sea Lion. In my world that’s not a threat, so the buy is rather silly in that aspect. The tr’s give G some flexibility, but they’re also vulnerable and carry no fighting power.


  • If UK puts the fleet by Iceland, it’s still very exposed and will be obliterated, but then the german fleet will be a bit out of place. Not tying up with tr’s makes G more flexible here as there is no strong incentive to kill of the russian ships. It can wait. Perhaps even forever. They are stuck in the Baltic Sea and won’t impact anything. Can’t even convoy disrupt.


  • Testing this mostly in Europe 40SE OOB (different dynamic than global, admittedly) WRT the G2 DOW, I am not sure that going after the whole of the UK fleet is really advantageous for Germany because of opportunity cost incurred. Germany can employ the air favorably every turn, while the UK fleet is only useful periodically…when transports give it leverage. Without transports, and without destroyers to oppose surviving subs, the UK fleet has no leverage…unless Germany is provoked to attack it within its protective air cover and trade air for sea. Later the fleet will have considerable value, but early on it is largely toothless, and time (initiative in chess parlance) is of the essence. I have warmed to the idea of taking out the UK transports and destroyers in G1 (109 and 106), along with the SZ111 fleet. This prevents any UK landings for a time, giving the UK a choice between Gibraltar and Norway on UK2 (the latter usually at heavy cost), it also often leaves multiple German subs running around, and possibly a damaged German BB which either France or the UK has to gamble on taking out before it gets away (costing something valuable 2/3 of the time.) Effectively for Germany/Italy this is usually about 2 turns of safety from UK landings in the Atlantic. This G1 also frequently tends to produce substantial convoy disruption for the UK that is worth a vessel or a ground unit or two. (Things change if the UK scrambles…but the scrambles result in unfavorable exchanges for the UK that leave it and the Med vulnerable while costing only modest German air power. At times I have lost every single UK/France fighter in such scrambles…which produces all sorts of problems.)

    If I am pushing for Moscow on the ground, I really don’t care what the surviving UK 110 cruiser/battleship fleet is up to if they can’t land anywhere without suffering disproportionate casualties to do so, or can only strike one place without weakening others too much. Taking out the UK transports and destroyers while retaining some subs creates a favorable dynamic for Germany. The UK has to be able to build for trouncing Italy in Africa, reinforcing Russia via Persia, reinforcing Gibraltar, and/or threatening Norway, and later supporting US amphib attacks. Taking out UK transports slows them dramatically, similar to the way the UK taking out Italy’s transports does to the latter.

    For Germany, this is combined with mech/armor builds on G1 &G2 (plus a DD to deal with the Russian subs) that force the early Russian infantry withdrawal from the north or risk losing the race to Moscow on G5/G6. German infantry will play catch up, but if Russia tries to hold somewhere other than opposing the primary Russian stack, the Germany infantry arrives in time to make the difference and kill pockets.


  • You certainly have some valid ideas there, @Red-Harvest.

    I’d say the point of heavily reducing the UKN is rather long-term. If UK has a strong fleet, it means US won’t have to bother to bolster the defensive capabilities of the combined allied fleet, but may only build tr’s and land units. It’s a huge advantage for the Allies, since then US can push more in the Pac and more easily get the upper hand against Japan until it’s too late.

    UK will have difficulties rebuilding the fleet quickly because of the situation in Africa and ME.

    If the Allies get domination in the Atlantic too easily, it means all kinds of pressure on the western front, something which Germany will have to pay dearly for later on. I’d say a solid landing in Norway is the biggest threat, thereafter comes Normandie and least dangerous, but still with a lot of bite, is Greece.

    I’d say the z109 is too heavily guarded to bother with. Germany really don’t want to lose even parts of its precious Luftwaffe. If you really want to take out a trannie (which certainly is a very good thing), then go with 2 subs against z106.


  • Trulpen,

    The long term trades are real as you say. However, I doubt the US can get away without building substantial air cover. It needs that to threaten Italy vs. being DD blocked into Normandy attacks instead. I like to build a few SB’s as Germany after the initial mech/armor are sent away. The SB’s are for supporting the final attack on Moscow, primarily. Sometimes I will SBR Moscow with forward (the initial SB’s) a round or two, but I almost always get terrible dice when I do…33% to 60% losses vs. 1/6 expected is not in the least bit unusual for me vs various AA whether for SBR or big stack attacks, so the conversion rate for “last hit bomber” supporting infantry/mech/arty/tanks for 3 or 4 rounds is a much better value rather than preventing a few 1-2 being placed for a turn. If the US goes thin…those SBR’s in West Germany will sink the transports first. If the surviving UK fleet is sent to Gibraltar then it exposes other areas or might even be engaged earlier (surviving subs, SB’s, even a DD build since I like to clear Russian subs, but will engage targets of opportunity.)

    For G1:
    2 subs vs. 106, 2 vs. 109 (with loads of air support to crush any scramble–the surviving air will land in Holland with 2 or 3AA to protect them), only 1 sub and the BB (plus air vs. 111). The UK has to commit a lot of air to 109 and is likely to lose all of that…which is not good. Again, using chess parlance, it is a sharp position but a favorable one for the attacker so the defender must be wary. In 109 having the initiative: two sub hits are good for killing both destroyer and transport (subs can’t hit air), and a subsequent “retreat” of the air rather than further trades. The subs, even if they miss, soak up early air hits from the UK in the first round with the UK DD alive, while likely costing the UK some air as well from Luftwaffe attack. The second sub in 111 is overkill (and not employed, used in 106) since the German BB can be engaged along with sufficient air that a UK scramble will not help much. Without a scramble, I usually take a fighter hit just to keep that annoying BB in UK waters…again as we say (or more specifically, Nimkovich) “in chess the threat is often stronger than the execution.” Tac bombers will support my armor at 4 attack in Russia. I don’t need fighters as much and they are cheaper to replace.

    Letting 110’s fleet live gives Germany trouble later since it is nearly impossible to kill without heavy losses if withdrawn to cover and with the bulk of the Luftwaffe in the East, but bypassing it gives advantage to other German interests at a critical time during the push toward Moscow. It is more of a trade than a sacrifice since neither UK transport is likely to survive and the trades are likely in Germany’s favor even with scrambles. There is some risk to the Luftwaffe, but more to the UK’s limited air from what I have tried thus far.

    If you ask me what I fear more as the UK: it is the above attack as it makes things more difficult for several turns. It is semi-analogous to the Taranto problem for Italy although not as severe (assuming the UK’s SZ 96 attack succeeds in killing the second IT transport…otherwise it is close. Transports carry the real threat of capturing territory. Fleets are just ways of projecting this power.


  • It’s true indeed. However, 1 des, 2 bs, 3 cr is a lot of defensive force. With that on the board I’m sure the US won’t have to build a single warship in the Atlantic. Maybe some air, as you say, but that air is very versatile, so they’re eminent buys. UK may build one or two carriers, and Germany will have their hands full very soon.


  • Rebuilding a tr in Canada is kind of easier than 1 des, 2 bs, 3 cr. Wouldn’t you agree? 🙂


  • @trulpen

    Where are the extra ships coming from? SZ 111 is dead and might have a wounded German BB in it as well (when favorable I like taking the fighter hit as Germany just to create this problem…since it gives me fits as allies/dividing later movement/attacks.) The UK is left with a single BB and cruiser in SZ 110 after G1, assuming the SZ 91 cruiser is sent to the Med.(SZ 96). Most probably, the UK has no DD’s left in the Atlantic, no transports, some German subs to contend with depending on where they survive (based mostly on scramble and dice), and a turn or two wait to inflict any counterattack.

    The French have a cruiser in 110 (and a fighter if not scrambled and lost). But they can’t fully coordinate with the UK, which means piecemeal attack on the damaged BB in 111. This French attack will usually win…although not always…I have lost both in the counterattack on F1 (dice fun) which really hurts. More importantly, the disjointed command means that simultaneous attack can’t happen, so the UK has 1 BB and 1 cruiser for attacking, independent of builds, and you don’t want to expose them in front of 110 even if they win without loss–the counterstrike by 2 SB’s and 3+ fighters from W. Germany is ugly. Anything put there is a write-off with insufficient compensation. It will reduce Russian strike forces somewhat statistically, but the economics seem poor in most situations since UK moves before France.

    The UK1 transport build in Canada doesn’t have an impact on the game until turn 2 or 3. It likely requires a UK1 DD as well since it will likely face 1 or 2 surviving subs–building the DD and transport are half the UK IPC’s for the round, ignoring convoy losses, which will likely reduce it even more. And then the transport only threatens Gibraltar on UK2 (and can be destroyed without loss unless supported), which might have been held by Italy as early as IT1 and might not be so easy to take (dice again). Doesn’t do anything to reinforce UK for G2, which is anemic…I am not a Sea Lion player, but a stripped UK would be hard to pass up even if I thought I was going to target Russia initially. Air units can be diverted rapidly, ground and naval not as quickly.

    The UK’s lack of TT’s is a problem, but so is the lack of DD’s to clear the German subs. Germany gets an extra round of initiative as a result. Again, resorting to chess parlance, the extra round of freedom/initiative might be worth a tempo or at minimum several tempi.

    UK building carriers is expensive. It means they can’t reinforce Africa, etc. A carrier costs slightly more than a transport/inf/art for South Africa. Spending early money on a carrier makes Italy more viable and a potential threat rather than readily subdued. In later rounds after Italy is neutralized UK carriers are very useful. Early on, they would seem to give Italy a reprieve and threaten little vs. the Axis. Again, the Italy/UK game in the Med is “sharp” so it is hard to predict outcomes there even if the UK is favored initially, but things often shift rapidly based on a single combat result. (That is part of the game I enjoy…the wide range of results in the Med. is one of the things I like about the game because I have seen it turn back and forth at random with what appears to be solid play…but the dice say otherwise.)

    And I like the G1 sub attack on the cruiser in SZ 91 as well to weaken the UK SZ 96 and/or Taranto attacks as well. Two subs in 91 usually doom the cruiser, often with zero loss. But they leave that pesky transport/DD combo as a counterstrike (with air support tipping odds against subs), with troops landing in NCM to reinforce Gibraltar if the zone is cleared. That can deny Italy Gibraltar if 1 TT survives.

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