American Pac-Strat: Why Alpha +2 is not a balanced game!


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I am one of the, if not the, creators of the American Pac-Strat. As such, I feel I have some authority in which to discuss how it effects the game, what makes it balanced or unbalanced and how it could, if need be, fixed.

    To discuss the Pac-Strat one must look at the global situation, the Europe situation in solitary perspective, the Pacific situation in solitary perspective, the financial situation and the over all methods to “win.”

    Here is the basic shell of the American Pac-Strat. Please keep in mind that the details need to be vague as no two games are alike and certain issues may have to be addressed to handle different game situations. It has also been noted, by myself, that when one gives an absolute, detailed account of what to do first, second and third, opponents to your argument tend to give a counter-argument stating that they will do this on this round, knowing you will do that 3 rounds later. That is a flawed argument. If the game situation changes in such a way as doing one step many rounds later leads to your immenant destruction, why would you still go ahead with that specific step in your over all strategy? You wouldn’t!

    The overall idea is that the Australian air force, and what little ships they have, combined with whatever ships England has are enough defensive punch to prevent the American fleet from getting mauled (perhaps not sunk, but damaged to the point it is no longer effective) from happening. This means America can move forward into the Pacific earlier, thus meaning Japan has to pull back earlier.

    Japan can be neutralized without taking Tokyo! Once America starts “island hopping” on about turn 4 or 5, Japan’s income drops significantly while America’s stays strong and will, regardless of the situation! (For instance, even if America has no islands in the Pacific, they still collect 5 for Mexico, 10 for the Continental United States and 49 for territories, for a grand total of 64 IPC, which is about what Japan makes with all their NOs in play!) Thus it is, America eventually strangles Japan and then, later, leaves submarines in SZ 6 to wipe out what money Japan earns, reducing them to 0 income, without ever taking Japan! (Or Korea.)

    Germany and Italy can be ignored as, once America has the Pacific, they are earning in the 90’s. Yes, England may be gone, but that is irrellevant. The Allies cannot win by victory cities, only by taking capitols. Russia is plenty strong enough to prevent the fall of Moscow (Muskva - speaking off, why the heck did you call it Novgorod, Volgorod and then Moscow? All in, or all out man! Sorry, pet peive, I also call it Arkhangelsk and Belarus, but I digress!)

    Common misconceptions I have seen, and answers to specific arguements:

    i) Russia cannot beat Germany without America!

    So what? Russia does not have to BEAT anything, it only has to survive! By that, I mean that Russia only needs to keep Muskva in their control at all times and Germany cannot win the game! (Yes, theoretically they could take Ontario, realistically? Yes, I didn’t think so.)

    Just looking at the first three rounds of Russia:

    1. 37 IPC: 11 Infantry, 1 Artillery. Build 3 each in Novgorod, Odessa (S. Ukraine), 5 in Muskva.

    2. 37 IPC: 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 3 Armor. Build 3 each in Novgorod and Odessa, build 3 armor in Muskva

    3. 37 IPC: 6 Artillery, 2 Armor, build 3 artillery each in Novogord and Odessa, Armor in Musvka.

    This gives Russia + 16 Infnatry, 7 Artillery and 5 ARmor, a very significant boost to their offensive capability and their ability to hold freshly liberated land. It forces Germany to contend with counter attack - even if no counter attack occurs.

    Russian strategy: Harry the Germans, sniping easy kills without losing significant forces. Withdraw in the face of overwhelming power to preserve strength and the ability to defend Muskva. Retreat, when possible, into their own reinforcements.

    Standard Attack Plan: 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter vs 1 Defending Infantry. 67% odds of killing the defender. 33% odds of losing your infantry. Works out to 54.04% chance of taking the land, 45.96% chance of losing your infantry and retreating the fighter empty handed. Calculator results: http://www.campusactivism.org/aacalc/?m … nd=1&pbem= (Using frood’s calculator, limit it to 1 attacking unit must survive, run 10,000 results, all battles with 1 infantry, 1 fighter vs 1 infantry.)

    Even if you fail to take the land, and we’re talking a 1 IPC plot of land here, you have better than even odds of replacing their picket with your own and only losing 1 infantry in the process. This runs counter intuitive to many of us who have played for a while. But we are used to 2 and 3 IPC territories, not 1 IPC throw-away chunks of land.

    ii) But won’t Germany get too strong if England falls?

    Not really. Just because Germany and Italy have 120 IPC combined and a foot hold on England, Europe and Africa does not mean they will win! For one, India is collecting 30 IPC and headed into the Middle East. Russia has at least 20 IPC and pressing against the Eastern Front. America has a warfleet of surface ships they dont need in the Pacific that will be quickly headed towards the Atlantic, coupled with new ships (Mostly transports, but also submarines for convoy duty) to retake Africa and, worst of all, there will only be income for the NO of London for Germany, after the convoys.

    Essentials: Germany must reinforce against Russia, or retreat. Germany must defend France or lose it. Germany must defend England, or face liberation by the Americans. Italy must defend Africa. Italy must defend the Middle East. Italy must defend S. Europe (to include all of Italy and the balkans states.)

    Essentials: Russia must not lose Moscow. America must take S. Africa and at least Morocco. India must liberate the middle east.

    None of that is really that difficult to achieve, once you figure in that the Germans and Italians are split three ways from Sunday while the Allies are focused. Without Japan, the doomsday bell is sounding and the Europeans will be liberated.

    iii) But it costs 3.5 IPC more for America to move troops into the Pacific!

    1. America only needs 2 transports, 3 infantry, 1 armor in the Pacific. They start with this equipment. Remember, you are not taking Japan, you are not invading Korea. What you are doing is liberating islands that generally only have 1 infantry defending them, if that. 4 ground units, plus 6 aircraft is more than enough to accomplish this. And, with the significantly greater income, you can readily trade planes instead of ground forces to keep the ball rolling! What’s a 10 IPC plane to America who is earning 90 IPC? Nothing. It’s 1/9th of their income. A 3 IPC infantry from Japan earning 40 IPC is 7.5% of their income. A fighter can quickly move over from the US to replace the lost one, the lost Infantry cannot be replaced at all.

    2. It costs Japan, Australia and England the same amount to transport troops where they are needed. Who can afford it more? America iwth 90 IPC, Australia with 20 IPC, Japan with 40 IPC or England with 0 or 30 IPC? I wager the Americans can well afford the cost! They earn more than Japan + Australia + England Combined!

    iv) The Japanese fleet and air force is too large to contend with.

    I have diagrammed this many times. I will do so again:

    1. Japan starts with 156 IPC worth of warships, and 222 IPC in air power. They earn 40 IPC a round thereafter, perhaps getting as high as 50 IPC for a round or two.

    2. America starts with 108 IPC in warships, 83 IPC in air power and earns 52 IPC for 3 rounds and 72-90 IPC there after.

    3. By round 8 Japan should have, with full expenditures into the navy, less 20 IPC for ground units to hold China, 618 IPC worth of Air and Naval Power. By round 8 America should have, with full expenditures into the navy, less 0 for ground units: 506 IPC in warships and air power + 231 from Australia + 40 from England for a grand total of 777 IPC warfleet.

    4. Note, this is a worst case scenario! Odds are, the situation will be significantly better for the allies! America can easily get that 5th island, Japan can quickly lose what NOs they have, dynamically shift the situation against the axis even more, I am only looking at the best possible situation for the axis.

    So what can we do about it?

    1. The continental NO should be discarded. I have never seen W. USA fall to Japan in the global game, ever! Taking the W. USA is the easiest of all the attacks on the continental United States, if that does not fall, it’s assured that C. USA and E. USA will not fall either! Thus, the NO is essentially just making W. USA worth 20 IPC.

    2. All of America’s NOs are in the Pacific. Why in the world would they ever go to the Atlantic!?! There’s no reward for them there!
      i) Gibraltar + Morocco + Algeria should be 5 IPC for America. This is an area Italy goes routinely, it was a historical operation for the United States (Patton was sent there to secure N. Africa) and it is very important towards defeating the Axis in Europe to keep these territories liberated.
      ii) England, Normandy (W. France) and Norway should be the other 5 IPC. We knew that if England fell, we would have a much harder time invading and liberating Europe. Normandy is where D-Day happened. Norway was, I believe, where the Germans were conducting Nuclear Research.
      iii) Note, this does not reduce America’s financial strength, but it does cause them to consider the Atlantic with part of their resources, else, lose some strength against Japan. After 5 or 6 rounds of lost money, we see a 50 to 60 IPC shift in naval power, which should be enough to allow Japan to hold SZ 6 longer.

    3. The Chinese fighter should be replacable, but also banned from British territories!
      i) America builds a fighter.
      ii) America flies the darn thing to China.
      iii) On China’s next turn, after the fighter lands, it can convert the fighter to Chinese.
      iv) China may not have more than one fighter at any time.
      v) China may only move into tan territories If and Only If, India has been captured, and only in Kwangtung (Hong Kong), Sham State, Burma and Malaya.
      vi) China may invade Korea if there are no Japanese naval ships on the Pacific board (SZ 1 through SZ 63).

    4. In regards to adding “slow moving land units” into “axis capitols” I disagree vehementaly. I hate bids, always have, always will, and this is too close to a bid. If you need to buff Europe, make the Submarine NO include the Med, Baltic, Black and Caspian Seas. Make the Russian NO include SZ 125, 126, 127, Karelia, Arkhangelsk and Novgorod. Make the FIC NO last until Japan captures FIC, regardless of at war status. (Though, I would rather see that NO split into Philippines and Sikang).

    5. The industrial technology section of the game is woefully inadequate for the board, IMHO. Many of the technologies are just dwarfed in scope of how many territories there are, financial considerations and where things are located. I would reduce the technologies to 6:

    6. Improved Airfields: Airbases now add +2 movement to Fighters and Tactical Bombers and +3 movement to Strategic Bombers. Cost of all aircraft reduced by 1.

    7. Heavy Bombers: Strategic Bombers roll two dice, take the best result. Tactical Bombers now attack at a 4 or less, regardless of accompanyment of a tank or fighter. (See SBR notes below.)

    8. Improved Shipyards: Cost of Naval units reduced as before. Shipyards now extend range of all non-transport ships (ie warships) by 2.

    9. War Bonds: Two dice + 2 IPC added during the collect income phase.

    10. Improved Infantry: Mechanized Infantry cost 3 IPC, may blitz as per armored units.

    11. Improved Facilities: Minor Industrial Complexes now build 5 units, Major Industrial Complexes now build 12 units, AA Guns now hit on a 2 or less (including the ones on facilities).

    12. Misc:
      i) Mechanized Infantry: Should attack at 2, defend at 1. You ever try to get a jeep into a foxhole? No benefit from artillery or armor pressence.
      ii) Tactical Bombers can attack industrial complexes one a 1 to 1 basis with attacking strategic bombers.
      iii) SBR: Tactical Bombers always do 3 Damage to the enemy, 2 damage to the attack (+1 damage with heavy bombers technology), Strategic Bombers always do 4 damage to the enemy and 2 damage to the attacker (+2 with technology) regardless of any AA Gun shots. Just take the AA Guns out of the equation. Radar of course, would double the damage the attacker takes when conducting the raids, and of course, we still have interceptor rules.
      iv) Move the aircraft from N. Italy to S. Italy. Let’s save Germany the trouble of moving planes down there to defend the fleet, okay? One less thing to deal with.
      v) Move 1 infantry from Karelia, 2 infantry from Vyborg to Russia. Alleviates some defensive punch that Germany must contend with.
      vi) Move 1 Artillery from Germany to W. Germany. Makes France less dicey.
      vii) If Japan invades Russia, not only does Russia get 12 IPC, but also America may declare war on JAPAN ONLY. If Russia invades Japan not only does Japan get 12 IPC, but Japan can invade Dutch territories without incuring reciprocity from America, England or Australia.
      viii) Captured minor industrial complexes are destroyed, as per aa gun rules. They may be rebuilt by whomever holds the land for a full round, of course.
      ix) Italy needs a minor complex in Libya. I don’t care if the territory is increased in value to 2 IPC or not. Obviously any structure on the initial setup is immune from rules building a new one. Also, if the complex is lost, it might be nice to make it unreplacable.

    These are just my opinions. Take or leave what you want. Feedback is always appreciated. As a parting thought, I will leave a link to a typical American Pac-Strat game I am in. A few things to note:

    Japan’s been running all over with the fleet. America’s been chasing because it has nothing else to do!

    America’s been building Atlantic fleet for a few rounds now, and is ready to invade North Africa with minimal to no resistance.

    England’s moved from China into the Middle East, Italy is having issues maintaining power there.

    China is easily holding the Japanese at bay, with America siphoning off what little they earn with Convoy damage.

    Russia has been holding the Germans back quite well for quite a long time, even with Sea Lion being a success and without American assistance until just recently!

    This is a typical game, there are no strange rules added, no rules were adapted or changed. The game has run along a pretty standard line with America investing 100% into the Pacific until just the past 2 or 3 rounds (which coincidentally, was when Japan was neutralized and thereafter.)

    If we look at Europe, we see the pretty normal inroads that Germany makes into Russia. They went north, instead of south, of course, but they could have gone the other way with equal success. The Russian army (493 IPC) is equivalent to the German army (539 IPC) with neither able to beat the other. Many of the Russians are in Caucasus, but then many of the Germans are in Germany so it’s a wash there.

    The Australian fleet, in this game as per normal, was a deciding factor. I find many people underestimate the power of Australia. Please take note that Australia has a shuck system in place, scary, no?

    The game is essentially over. Japan is earning 4 IPC a round, but will lose that shortly as Russia liberates the last few territories. Italy is earning 50 IPC a round, but that will be ending shortly now that America has 8+ transports to dump units into Africa. Germany is earning 80 IPC a round, but that’s not enough eithera s they have to build to defend England, France, Geramny and attack Russia.

    Here is the link. The file uses the Abattlemap T40 module.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/ind … =23121.405

    (copy pasted from Larry’s board, links may no longer work.  Filmatleven)



  • Hey Jennifer, maybe DONT do sea lion
    Maybe attack USSR on turn 2 as Germany
    Then see if russia can hold out indefintely
    And see what Germany feels like to play as when you have +20 IPCs in bonus money and needs only 1 more victory city, cario. And without the US involved in the atlantic then maybe the Italy can grab that one for you

    Germany does not need to take london to win……


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    London is by far the easier target than Moscow is.

    If Germany attacks Russia instead, you end up giving Russia more money in the long run.  Likewise, you have to hold more units in reserve else lose France to England.  Further, in the grand scheme of things, the allies are making 100s of IPC more with London free than with London occupied.  Further, England can readily build fighters to dump into Russia to add to the Russian defense.  Still further, London becomes an airbase for American strategic bombing raids costing Germany a fortune.  Still further, an early attack with Germany allows Russia to annex the middle east, saving British units from India the trouble, giving Russia more money and India more units against Japan.  Even further than that, Germany neither has the position nor the equipment to pummel Russia early in the game, it’ll take at least 3 more rounds (from the fall of France that would be round 4 anyway) before Germany can hit Russia with any strength at all - EXCEPT if they don’t annex the Balkan States (Albania, Yugoslavia, Balkans, Greece) in which case they are down money there as well.

    Does Germany need London to win?  No.  Do they need Moscow to win?  No.  Do they need Moscow OR London to win?  Yes!



  • Are you kidding me Jennifer?
    Germany attacks Yugoslavia with a retreat in mind, and doesnt throw their air force in the garbage taking out british boats. Then they are smacking into russia on G2 and a smart German player would build a sub their first turn to take the USSR bonus away. LET UK build fighters and send them to moscow how? Its too many moves away for a quick reaction move.

    Look how much money you take away from USSR by attacking turn 2……they lose 2 extra turns of building, and never collect their bonus for archanagel. By G3 Im going to have Lenningrad, or at least Ukrane, Russias pick.

    This is all with the caviat that the US is going 100% pacific. I will win, every game I play as the Axis, with no european involvment for the americans before turn 10.


  • Customizer

    Sounds like a challenge.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    So you are advocating NO attacks on the British AT ALL by Germany, no attack on Yugoslavia or Greece?

    Then you would have significantly more power, but then, England would be in West Germany long before Germany is in Russia!  I will have the NO for SZ 125 every round without fail.

    With 1 or 2 carriers, 2 battleships, 1 cruiser, 3 or 4 destroyers, 2 or 3 transports, I’ll be landing in Norway (-8 IPC for Germany), Holland, W. France, I’ll have planes ready to send into Moscow to defend should that be needed (it won’t but it shouldn’t matter) and before Germany can get into Russia (the TT, not the country) the Americans will be dropping 5 transports worth of gear into Africa/Europe per round with Japan removed (for all intents and purposes) from the game.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    For the record, I take your challenge:

    America goes Pacific
    Germany goes Russia without attacking the Balkan states, without attacking the British fleet and without conducting Sea Lion
    America can only come to the aid of the British and Russians (Europe Theater only, no rule against helping the Pacific theater Russians) when Japan has been neutrallized for all intents and purposes. (I don’t care what fleet they have, as long as they no longer have the option of building it up and the fall of India, Australia and/or America is no longer a threat.  I won’t allow you to just run your Japanese fleet to the Indian Ocean and then claim America is still limited to Pacific theater…had that one pulled on me already, that’s why killing the Japanese fleet isn’t part of the strategy.)

    I will be gracious and allow you to attack SZ 112, since that contains a French boat, we’ll consider the floatilla there French, not British.  However, SZ 111, SZ 110, SZ 91, SZ 109, SZ 106 and SZ 98 are off limits!



  • Germany
    Purchase:
    1 Transport
    1 Sub
    1 Tank
    1 Mech Infantry
    1 Artillery
    1 Infantry

    Combat moves agaisnt UK
    Sub SZ 117, 118> SZ 106 (87.2 % win)
    Sub 108, 124> 109 (66% chance of 1 hit, and thats all I want, to kill the destroyer)
    Fighter Norway, Cruiser, Battleship 113 > 112 (98.1 % win)

    Combat moves against France
    Western Germany 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical > SZ 93 (89.2 % win)
    Holland Belgum 3 Infantry, 1 Artilery, 1 Fighter; West Germany Tactical Bomber > Normandy/ Bordeux (85.6 %win)
    Western Germany 2 Mech Infantry, 1 Tactical Bomber; Greater Southern Germany Tank> Southern France (98.0 % win)
    Holland Belgum 1 Infantry, 1 artillery, 3 Tanks; Western Germany 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Mech infantry, Tactical bomber; Greater Southern Germany 1 Tank; Germany Tactical Bomber, Bomber; Poland Tactical Bomber; Slovakia Hungary Fighter > France (93.9 %win)

    To reitarate 4 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Mech Infantry, 4 Tanks, 1 fighter, 3 Tactical bombers, 1 bomber > France

    Combat moves against neutrals
    Greater Southern Germany 6 Infantry, 2 artillery; Poland 1 Tank, Romania 1 tank > Yugoslavia (3 Hits round 1 on average, the retreat to Romania, losses of 1 or 2 infantry)

    Noncombat moves
    Sub 103 > 92 or 87 dependent on situation
    2 Infantry Denmark > West Germany
    Tank Slovakia Hungary activates Bulgaria
    Attacking planes from SZ 93 land in South Italy, all other planes land in west germany
    1 Infantry Norway Activate Finaland
    Transport 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery Germany to Finland
    Move 10 INF & 2 Artillery from germany to Poland
    Move 2 INF Slovakia to Romainia

    This leaves 12 Infantry, 2 Artillery in Poland
    8-10 Infantry, 2 artillery, 2 tanks in romania and 1 in Bulgaria too
    Land units built at Germany, tank and mech can hit the front
    Transport and sub into 112 if all went well


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Don’t say it, PLAY IT!

    And when you do, please don’t forget to ask for scrambles!  Send me a link to the game!  We’ll keep the forum updated and when I crush you horribly, we can part friends, okay?  😉



  • Troubble is ive never played by forum, i have no idea how to do so


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Oh that’s easy.  Get the module from someone (it’s in the software section) for Abattlemap.

    You type out your moves, as you did, then roll the dice with the forum dicey.  ;aaa #@X; where the semi-colons are colons, the # sign is the number of whatever units are rolling and the X is the target number.

    Ie: 17 Infantry, 6 Artillery, 12 Armor, 3 Fighters, 1 Strategic Bomber would be:
    ;aaa 11@1 12@2 15@3 1@4;

    It would display as:
    Rolls: 11@1 12@2 15@3 1@4; Total Hits: 1311@1: (3, 6, 2, 1, 6, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2, 2)12@2: (6, 5, 5, 3, 6, 2, 3, 6, 4, 3, 1, 4)15@3: (2, 6, 4, 2, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 5, 4, 1, 3, 2)1@4: (3)

    Then you save your map and upload it to the site.  I download it, and do my turn.

    You really need to get practice on this.  We are sticklers for proving your point here, andthe only way to do that is to show us it in action.  I happen to know attacking Russia and ignoring England is a very, VERY bad idea, but I cannot prove it to you until we play a game.  I can tell you  17 ways from Sunday what needs to be done to stop Germany from winning, but until you see it, you probably won’t believe me. (I wouldn’t believe someone if they didn’t show me it at least once against me. )



  • @Cmdr:

    So you are advocating NO attacks on the British AT ALL by Germany, no attack on Yugoslavia or Greece?

    are you sure this was meant? i have it understood that you don´t go sealion, but attack the british fleet, sinking it. and leaving yugoslavia to italy is very helpful for a german approach into russia. greece can be taken on round two without any problems (inf from bulgaria, tanks from romania).

    maybe i am mistaken.

    but: not attacking britain at all is a way to say good bye!



  • @Cmdr:

    I am one of the, if not the, creators of the American Pac-Strat. As such, I feel I have some authority in which to discuss how it effects the game, what makes it balanced or unbalanced and how it could, if need be, fixed.

    I like this statement, I envision you sitting by your computer almost breaking your arm patting yourself on the back.:)  Seriously though, I don’t think anyone can claim to be the originator of a 100% strategy.  Considering this has been the method used in all the previous incarnations of the game with the difference being instead of going after Europe100% America is going after the Pacific.  This is because unlike the other games the US’s money is now in the pacific.

    If someone can be considered the originator, then I would have to say they would be among the first owners of the game, since by owning a copy it means you are able to start applying basic strategies, like 100% in one theater.

    I can’t wait to compare this 100% strat with Garg’s ‘devils tongue’…where is that by the way?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    People are still waiting for that?

    Guess I better post it…


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    100% Pac-Strat, everyone did 100% Europe strats. =p

    And yes, I believe he meant to preserve his air power and use it against Russia on round 1, so he had the firepower to do both Russia AND France which would eliminate the possibility of hitting the British (as my scrambled fighters would annhilate his attacking forces.)  I believe his objection was based on a faulty premise: That England was unable to defend their fleet, which was based on a misunderstanding of the rules: That England could not scramble planes (which they can, obviously.)



  • hey jen, i know im just jumpin in on this, but could you kind of show me how to play online. via battlemap or w/e its called. im kind of a newb to this, and i really just wanna be able to play, and further my abilities. ty  😄



  • It’s probably an insane idea, but hey, why not make the Hawai SZ a Kamikaze area, and give Japan Kami’s from the start. Might let USA have to hold back at least a little bit?

    (it might also help for a Pearl Harbor attempt)



  • @special:

    It’s probably an insane idea, but hey, why not make the Hawai SZ a Kamikaze area, and give Japan Kami’s from the start. Might let USA have to hold back at least a little bit?

    (it might also help for a Pearl Harbor attempt)

    keep in mind that kami’s can only be used to DEFEND.



  • @thatonekid:

    @special:

    It’s probably an insane idea, but hey, why not make the Hawai SZ a Kamikaze area, and give Japan Kami’s from the start. Might let USA have to hold back at least a little bit?

    (it might also help for a Pearl Harbor attempt)

    keep in mind that kami’s can only be used to DEFEND.

    Good point… so: offensive Kami’s!  😄



  • TANK YOU for the info on the a battlemap I can never seem to find the correct map and the images for the pieces seem real small, and then theres how to move them again tank you, Im going to dig back into it and try to figure it out. then try to find the time.



  • Whether you like sea-lion or not Germany has to focus on england for the first 2-3 turns at the very least. Germany has to eliminate most of the British navy the very first turn. If you keep the threat of a strong sea-lion you can force England into putting most of their cash for the first couple turns into defending their capitol. If you dont do sea lion you can then build a sub or two a turn combined with half of the German airforce and you can keep the British from invading Europe and possible damage Englands economy with convoy warefare. While you are keeping England from gaining any real strength you have a major land war going with the Soviets.



  • @Cmdr:

    Russia is plenty strong enough to prevent the fall of Moscow.

    I disagree.

    @Cmdr:

    i) Russia cannot beat Germany without America!
    So what? Russia does not have to BEAT anything, it only has to survive!

    True. So statement should be : Russia won’t survive if left be himself.

    @Cmdr:

    ii) But won’t Germany get too strong if England falls?
    Not really. Just because Germany and Italy have 120 IPC combined and a foot hold on England, Europe and Africa does not mean they will win!

    True… but it’s a heck of an edge for it.

    @Cmdr:

    For one, India is collecting 30 IPC and headed into the Middle East.

    Really?? If Calcutta is at 30IPC, then Axis lost the game already. I never let Calcutta earn that much when I play Axis. In any case, stating “With 30IPC…” is a false start, you end up with 30IPC at the end of a win for Allies, or perhaps 1 turn if Japan didn’t attack in first 3 turns.

    @Cmdr:

    America has a warfleet of surface ships they dont need in the Pacific that will be quickly headed towards the Atlantic

    Here again I disagree. Have USA clean Pacific and end up in Atlantic? That will never happen before turn 6-7… which is plenty time for Axis to take over England, have Russia invasion going and strongly hold Gibraltar.

    @Cmdr:

    to retake Africa and, worst of all, there will only be income for the NO of London for Germany, after the convoys.

    So useless to retake Africa. Actually, as Axis player, I would so be pleased to see USA spend time/ressources for Africe. No IC site (but the too far south Africa). I didn’t understand the second part of this statement.

    @Cmdr:

    Essentials: Germany must reinforce against Russia, or retreat. Germany must defend France or lose it. Germany must defend England, or face liberation by the Americans. Italy must defend Africa. Italy must defend the Middle East.

    Of course German must reinforce against Russia… they are the wining objective (once Sea Lion accomplished). I don’t have the same reading as you regarding Europe. If USA as 100% Pac-Strat… where’s the threat against France and London?? Italy will surely easily defend Middle East against Calcutta, no issue there… that and Gibraltar, nothing else to do at this point of the game.

    @Cmdr:

    So what can we do about it?

    Nothing. Up to now I feel Alpha 2 balanced. I don’t say I will surely win against you… but I’m positive that your strat is not a sure win with Allies. Actually, I feel you have less chance to win with a 100% Pac-Strat… and I challenge you! I’m confident I’ll win a majority of games against that strat (like at least 3 out of 5).



  • @BigBadBruce,

    Maybe I just need to learn better tactics but I am finding that if the Allies do an Italy Stomp first while reinforcing Hawaii that Allied victory is probable.  It have used it to great success as the Allies and I have lost a couple of games to the Allies as the Axis due to this tactic.

    It seems to me that the USA with the help of the UK can ruin Italy’s economy fairly quickly.  By smashing the Italian Navy on the UK’s first turn and then sending the American’s roaring to Gilbraltar Italy watches it’s economy quickly dissolve. When this happens I have not been able to recover since I am now facing all the Allied Countries with just Germany and Japan.

    By flying fighters to Hawaii and using the transports it starts with the US can reinforce Hawaii also.  At this point Japan could take Hawaii if it wanted to but it would have to expend too many resources to do so.  The problem with Japan not taking Hawaii though is it leaves the USA enough time (imho) to wreck Europe enough that Russia/UK can stand on their own 2 feet. When the USA does have to spend heavily in the Pacific to stop Japan from winning the game they no longer have to worry about the Axis winning in Europe.

    If I could find a way to win the game quicker as Japan before USA gets back to the Pacific then that would obviously be an effective counter.  Yet to date my Allied opponents have had a pretty good handle of when to stop smashing Europe and turn their attention to defense in the Pacific.

    I am not going to say the Italy stomp can’t be countered but I will say that I am struggling against it and I have tried a variety of tactics to counter it that have not succeeded.

    It just seems to me if Italy was slightly stronger or Russia was a tad weaker then the game would be more balanced.

    Yet maybe I just need better tactics 😛



  • I don’t have absolut strategy with Axe. I won my 4 games with Axe with different players and, therefore, different alliance strategy that I had to deal with.

    Reading you, it seems Japan always attack early in your games. What I do with Japan is wait until a killing shot to attack… and if none occurs, then I attack Allies on J3, perhaps even J4 since Japan is before USA. But sure thing is, if USA reinforce Hawai on USA1, Japan completly destroy all navy there. A real Pearl Harbor occurs with a devastating 52/22 against a max possibly of 41/16 for USA (Combat value/hit point). z26 would most likely be clear in 2 waves…

    As Japan, I also attack Russia on the very first turn, no matter what Russia does at R1.

    Usually USA will avoid that sure lost battle. Therefore they just can’t go to Gibraltar before USA4… by that time, Gibraltar is well defended, either by Germany or Italy, depending on the game.

    IF UK attacks Italy, then UK will also loose all navy… in that trade I find Italy winner.

    That being said, I would enjoy testing my axis tactic, I invite you in a game. As I said, perhaps elsewhere, without playing at least 10 games, no one (including me) can state the game unbalanced. I played over 15 games of OOB Global40 (on boardgame, not here)before saying there’s absolutly noway that Axis can win, no matter waht. I challenge any game tester to state otherwise.



  • @BigBadBruce:

    I don’t have absolut strategy with Axe. I won my 4 games with Axe with different players and, therefore, different alliance strategy that I had to deal with.

    Reading you, it seems Japan always attack early in your games. What I do with Japan is wait until a killing shot to attack… and if none occurs, then I attack Allies on J3, perhaps even J4 since Japan is before USA. But sure thing is, if USA reinforce Hawai on USA1, Japan completly destroy all navy there. A real Pearl Harbor occurs with a devastating 52/22 against a max possibly of 41/16 for USA (Combat value/hit point). z26 would most likely be clear in 2 waves…

    As Japan, I also attack Russia on the very first turn, no matter what Russia does at R1.

    Usually USA will avoid that sure lost battle. Therefore they just can’t go to Gibraltar before USA4… by that time, Gibraltar is well defended, either by Germany or Italy, depending on the game.

    IF UK attacks Italy, then UK will also loose all navy… in that trade I find Italy winner.

    That being said, I would enjoy testing my axis tactic, I invite you in a game. As I said, perhaps elsewhere, without playing at least 10 games, no one (including me) can state the game unbalanced. I played over 15 games of OOB Global40 (on boardgame, not here)before saying there’s absolutly noway that Axis can win, no matter waht. I challenge any game tester to state otherwise.

    Okay I have played all my games in person and never played online.  If you can give me a little help with how to play online I would enjoy playing you.

    I think you have a lot of good ideas to counter an Italy Stomp and I might be able to learn from playing you in a game.  That said I think I have some ideas how to counter your counter 🙂


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