Deterrent to Egypt mIC on UK1 -"Ram-rod" play

[MarshmallowofWar]

@MeinHerr:

(Maybe Germany attack scenario should try to kill CRU off Gib with 2 Subs. It leaves lesser options for UK navy.
Use 3rd Sub to hit Canada)  but let us go with original premise.

Not a horrible idea, but I don’t see what it really gets you – then the UK takes no cruiser to sea zone 81.

@MeinHerr:

In your defence scenario,  India does not get Sumatra.

2 India planes go West.

Easier for Japan to take India. Maybe Japanese attack plan can be changed to take India quicker.

In my scenario, I am good with India falling as long as I don’t lose in the Pacific as a result. You still have to take Hawaii, Sydney, and/or San Francisco. I can prevent Japan from doing that and entangle it in a fight for the money islands. I can’t do any of that if I lose the Middle East. Nor do I care if India takes Sumatra – there is zero chance of my saving India if Japan wants to kill it no matter what I do. The only way I can save it is if Japan screws up. If Japan goes after Russia and ignores India, then it is inconsequential. If Japan goes after ANZAC first, India will live because there will be plenty of time to replace those units that got pulled away.

But if I let the Axis into the Middle East after losing Egypt, I’ve almost lost the game.

@MeinHerr:

Germany does NOT have to follow through Egypt airstrafe.

I already covered this – if the German air force does not land in Alexandria, the Italian forces in Alexandria die on UK2. If the German air force does land there, it is pinned until the Italian forces in Alexandria retreat or attack. And if you do anything other than a full Alexandria stack with Italy on I1, the UK gets off light on the defense of Egypt and has more room to play elsewhere.

@MeinHerr:

ItAly 1 - buy nothing
Can kill French ship and take Gib if undefended (2 CRU+BB)+TR

it won’t be undefended. Because Germany left the sea zone 110 fleet alive, there is now a UK cruiser and battleship in sea zone 92! I actually don’t need both of them there – I could send the cruiser, saving the battleship and a destroyer to make sure you can’t Sea Lion. Then I could actually fly air to Gibraltar on G1, and now Italy is toasted in the med.

@MeinHerr:

Can use 2nd TR (T+Inf)+Albanian T+Inf+F to take Greece.
Can use Sub+SBR to kill Malta ship
Can use 1 DD+ F to kill Greece SZ blocker.
Take Tunisia…inf+Art+mech+tank
Take Kenya…with all Ethiop+Somali
Consolidate in Libya

Yes, some battles maybe close, but Italy must take its chances now.

You forgot about the UK cruiser and BB in sea zone 92. No NO bonus for you!

@MeinHerr:

G2, since no planes were lost, can buy 1 CV in S. France…
Planes can kill BB+CRU in W.Gib

I didn’t see any modifications to your G1 build, so if you built two strat bombers and now a carrier you are 40 IPCs short on ground units for Russia. That’s six tanks and a mech. Or even better, a 10 artillery stack that could have gone to Russia to pair with your ten infantry stack.

Sorry, I see it. One strat bomber and a minor IC. Same issue – you are missing 40 IPCs of ground units for Russia.

@MeinHerr:

Lastly, if UK buys too much in Egypt, SA… there is for those of us with brave spirits… SeaLion!  Esp with 2 SBR buy on G1 !

Now you’re just grasping at straws. Sea Lion is a loser for the Axis in pretty much all scenarios (my opinion) unless the UK makes it super cheap (that would be no UK1 or UK2 forces built in London).

@MeinHerr:

If not, onward to Moscow…, Italy buys troops to defend France n Rome.

Missing six tanks and a mech? Have fun retreating in the Russian winter!

Marsh

[taamvan]

Mr. Herr,

If japan doesn’t attack until J3, UK PAC should be able to take over 2 islands, and can pre-empt war on UK2 by predeclaring diplomatically and therefore getting their NO.  Whether the UK fleet leaves or not, all it needs to leave is a blocker–and not even a blocker under the J3.  It doesn’t change the outcome of killing india first.

A lot of what you said relies on the idea that Italy has more than 1 transport.  It shouldn’t and doesn’t, bid or no bid.

Germany loses the planes threat on G1, and they are out of position on G2 and G3.   To assume that you are “knocking on moscows door” on G4-5 when your planes have been in Africa helping out Italy doesn’t seem to match up.

Germany doesn’t need to build a single transport on G1 to “threaten sea lion”.   It doesn’t need to build any units.   What it does need is to have its air in WG on G2-4 and its armor there or on the channel coast.   These two moves prevent Germany from being able to killing Russia on G1-G4.

You only get to check one box

Axis air in Africa
Axis air in WG
Axis air killing Russians.

Like Taranto, killing the sea forces in 110 is de rigeur.   If you don’t kill those, the UK doesn’t need to turtle.  They are blocking the channel square, have sea dominance from UK1, and can focus on navy the whole game.

Jon

[MarshmallowofWar]

@taamvan:

Like Taranto, killing the sea forces in 110 is de rigeur. �  If you don’t kill those, the UK doesn’t need to turtle. � They are blocking the channel square, have sea dominance from UK1, and can focus on navy the whole game.

While we disagree about Taranto being de rigeur, we do agree about killing the sea zone 110 fleet!

Marsh

[taamvan]

Mr. Marsh,

I shouldn’t be so binary; cripple the Italians now, do it later, as long as you find something for your planes to bomb every turn. :)

[MarshmallowofWar]

LOL! We are in agreement there!

[simon33]

@Marshmallow:

@MeinHerr:

(Maybe Germany attack scenario should try to kill CRU off Gib with 2 Subs. It leaves lesser options for UK navy.
Use 3rd Sub to hit Canada)  but let us go with original premise.

Not a horrible idea, but I don’t see what it really gets you – then the UK takes no cruiser to sea zone 81.

What it gets you is weakening Taranto. You give the Italians the choice in SZ96 of rolling well or stripping down the Taranto raid. Of course, if they’re doing Tobruk instead anyway, they can probably still hit SZ96 with just as much.

@Arthur:

If I had a choice between killing the UK Cruiser or the UK Destroyer/transport combo next to Canada, I would much prefer the second option.  That DD/Transport can be a major thorn into threatening Sea Lion, allowing the UK to have additional spending in Africa on the first turn.

It’s still possible to do both if you hit SZ110 with planes/BB only. You do risk a scramble in SZ110 though.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@simon33:

@Marshmallow:

@MeinHerr:

(Maybe Germany attack scenario should try to kill CRU off Gib with 2 Subs. It leaves lesser options for UK navy.
Use 3rd Sub to hit Canada)  but let us go with original premise.

Not a horrible idea, but I don’t see what it really gets you – then the UK takes no cruiser to sea zone 81.

What it gets you is weakening Taranto. You give the Italians the choice in SZ96 of rolling well or stripping down the Taranto raid. Of course, if they’re doing Tobruk instead anyway, they can probably still hit SZ96 with just as much.

That actually helps you if the UK is planning to do Taranto then. If not, it weakens your 110 attack (of course, Meinherr isn’t doing one).

@simon33:

@Arthur:

If I had a choice between killing the UK Cruiser or the UK Destroyer/transport combo next to Canada, I would much prefer the second option.  That DD/Transport can be a major thorn into threatening Sea Lion, allowing the UK to have additional spending in Africa on the first turn.

It’s still possible to do both if you hit SZ110 with planes/BB only. You do risk a scramble in SZ110 though.

Meinherr is not hitting sea zone 110 at all. He was sending three subs to sea zone 106 I thought.

Marsh

[simon33]

Right. I was making a more general comment.

If you aren’t hitting SZ110, you can hit 111 with one sub and enough planes to be confident of a one round battle.

[MeinHerr]

When playing RamRod, the conventional attack mindset involving Kill-SZ110 or Try SeaLion needs to be changed.

SeaLion is obviously out, esp with No Taranto…the 2 extra FTRS in UK would make it too expensive.

Accept that you are allowing the UK-BB, CRU and French CRU  to Live, in exchange for :

1. Killing French DD,CRU in SZ93…allowing Italy’s Navy+Air to do other things
2. Allowing the Italian BB, CRU and *most imptly * the  TR to live and do something.
3. Giving a chance for Ethiopians and Somali Italians to survive a round and concentrate…now they have to be hunted down…diverting UK resources
4. Help Tobruk forcE survive.

With Tobruk and Ethiopians,  Italy has option of not sacrificing them, should the German Strafe, be called off.

Since UK goes before Italy, there is time to decide, whether to go with strafe …or not!

If not, then they can be:
A) Kept in Libya and Kenya for a future threat. As long As Italian Navy exists in strength, the potential to take Egypt /Syria/Gib remains!
This keeps UK Med play honest.

B) Used to take Sudan and Tunisia
C) Combo of these and Withdraw 8 units from N Africa for defense!
D)  After Tunisia,Kenya is taken, can take Morocco and Algeria to get bonus and Tanganiyika to deny UK it’s NO.

All these ties down UK resources.

5. Make India easier to take for Japan.

IPC-wise, this is superior to the conventional play of

German Naval build for a bogus SeaLion threat costs 30 IPC, that cannot be used against Moscow…

Or

SZ110 kill… which results in Taranto, screwing over the Italians permanently.

So , just like Dark Skies involves a completely different thought-process, RamRod requires thinking unconventionally.

It can be tried with J2,J3 or J4… and dare I say J1… Iam sure folks will figure it out.

But, as far as Italy play is concerned,  cannot give it a better option than this.

Plz add to this after you try it.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@MeinHerr:

1. Killing French DD,CRU in SZ93…allowing Italy’s Navy+Air to do other things
2. Allowing the Italian BB, CRU and *most imptly * the  TR to live and do something.
3. Giving a chance for Ethiopians and Somali Italians to survive a round and concentrate…now they have to be hunted down…diverting UK resources
4. Help Tobruk forcE survive.

Exactly what else do Italy’s navy and air force have to do that is worth sacrificing a German air unit to French ships in sea zone 93?

You still have done NOTHING to deter Taranto. The UK can do it, or not, as it pleases – the choice is not up to you. Please explain how anything you have done deters the UK from making the Taranto attack?

@MeinHerr:

With Tobruk and Ethiopians,  Italy has option of not sacrificing them, should the German Strafe, be called off.

Since UK goes before Italy, there is time to decide, whether to go with strafe ….or not!

If not, then they can be:
A) Kept in Libya and Kenya for a future threat. As long As Italian Navy exists in strength, the potential to take Egypt /Syria/Gib remains!

If you move those forces into Alexandria on I1, enough of the German air force must land in Alexandria on G2 to deter the UK from killing those forces. If Germany does not reinforce via air, the Italian forces in Alexandria are dead. Your only choice is whether or not to move them to Alexandria.

Also, if you move to Alexandria and to Kenya (not Anglo-Egypt Sudan) your threat to take Egypt is quite empty.

@MeinHerr:

C) Combo of these and Withdraw 8 units from N Africa for defense!
D)  After Tunisia,Kenya is taken, can take Morocco and Algeria to get bonus and Tanganiyika to deny UK it’s NO.

By the time you get to Morocco, you will have lost Alexandria – your entire North Africa stack cannot stand against a properly executed UK1 MIC in Egypt, so exactly how is part of it going to keep Alexandria if the UK moves into that territory in force? No North Africa NO for you! Plus, the Americans will land and kill your forces in Morocco, allowing them to more rapidly move on to Normandy, Denmark, Norway, Rome, etc. rather than walking across North Africa to get to you…

Retreating the Italian forces from Africa is usually a good call if the US is doing KGF, as the US can put more pressure on Europe early than you can withstand without these forces. This would be especially true if a substantial amount of bid was placed in the Med.

The UK NO was taken as soon as you took Kenya…

@MeinHerr:

All these ties down UK resources.

Totally disagree. You are giving the UK an amazing amount of freedom by not putting pressure on it. Plus, by taking French territories that you cannot hold, you are giving the US extra income. The Allied players should actually come over to shake your hand and thank you for this!

@MeinHerr:

5. Make India easier to take for Japan.

NOTHING the UK does can save India against a determined Japan. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something, and what they’re selling stinks.

@MeinHerr:

German Naval build for a bogus SeaLion threat costs 30 IPC, that cannot be used against Moscow…

Or

SZ110 kill… which results in Taranto, screwing over the Italians permanently.

At least we’re in agreement that a bogus Sea Lion build is not worth the IPCs…

I fail to see how a G1 sea zone 110 kill results in Taranto being performed. Nothing in the G1 sea zone 110 attack forces the Allies to do anything at all. Anyone, please tell me how sea zone 110 forces the UK to do Taranto?

@MeinHerr:

So , just like Dark Skies involves a completely different thought-process, RamRod requires thinking unconventionally.

If by unconventionally you mean not thinking things through and making questionable strategic decisions, I would agree with your statement.

I agree that with early German help Italy can actually be a meaningful contributor to the Axis war effort. The only issue with this is that you have to have some plan to hold off a well-executed KGF while still killing Russia quickly and effectively. I’m actually ok with your strafing plan, but as I think has been shown it is basically a die roll for the Axis. You need more to it than what you have. Maybe put your G1 fleet build off Southern France on G2 so you have a two-punch for Egypt. That would get Germany an NO and give Italy a break into the Middle East or Africa. That might be worth a one or two turn delay in killing Moscow.

Also, at the end of the day, Italy’s focus has to be defending Europe. Holding Egypt and the Middle East should be considered strategic objectives (i.e., Italy needs the money to build in Europe) and not tactical (Italy actively combats Russia and builds forces for that purpose). If you combined this with a fast Japanese kill of India, you might have a winning Axis strategy here.

Marsh

[simon33]

@Marshmallow:

NOTHING the UK does can save India against a determined Japan. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something, and what they’re selling stinks.

Probably true. Although you can make them make sacrifices to take it. Bidding an art in Kweichow helps a lot. Do you play in league or online?

[MarshmallowofWar]

The plan would look something like this (please remember this is just broad strokes):

G1: build seven artillery, save two IPCs. Take Southern France with other usuals, including sea zone 110. Ignore sea zone 91 – it is inconsequential. Try not to lose any aircraft. Land one fighter in Southern Italy for a three plane scramble, or land that fighter in Tobruk.
J1: China and Russia, keep the US out of it.
I1: Italy kills French fleet in sea zone 93 and destroys any UK blockers in the Med. Build a transport and keep your fighters home. Take Alexandria and use your existing transports to reinforce it.

G2: build AC and destroyer in Southern France; remaining money is tanks and mechs for Russia. Land two fighters on carrier. Move at least one infantry to Greater Southern Germany and make sure three German tanks are in range to move to the coast on G3 (you want them worrying about a G3 build of three transports in Southern France). Land all aircraft not already in Africa in Southern Italy. Strat bomb UK Egypt factory.
J2: More China and Russia, keep the US out. If UKP and ANZAC were dumb enough to attack you, capitalize on it to deprive India of as much income as possible. Secure Yunnan as a landing field.
I2: All remaining Italian warships go to sea zone 93 to cover German fleet. Reinforce Alexandria with more ground forces. Keep your fighters at home to cover your transports. Secure Greece if practicable, but do not sacrifice reinforcing Alexandria.

G3: Build a transport in Southern France. Move one infantry and one tank to Northern Italy (two if you are going for a two transport option). All your other money is spent for tanks and mechs for Russia. If the UK turtled Egypt with all air, use the Luftwaffe to kill the UK fleet for cheap. If the UK did not turtle Egypt, use the Luftwaffe to strafe Egypt one round and allow an Italy walk-in. (Could go with two transports, because two tanks can gain ground in the Middle East faster than one…). Land back in Alexandria to cover Italian ground forces. Strat bomb UK Egypt factory. Go to war with Russia.
J3: More China and Russia, keep the US out. If UKP and ANZAC were dumb enough to attack you, capitalize on it to deprive India of as much income as possible. Land all your planes in Yunnan. Get ready to kill India on J4.
I3: Move Italian warships to destination sea zone for German fleet (by now that should be sea zone 98). Reinforce Alexandria with more ground forces unless you can take Egypt (and if you can take Trans Jordan if you don’t need the forces for Egypt). If Germany will strafe Egypt, reinforce Alexandria. Otherwise, land in Syria. Secure Greece.

G4: If you previously killed the UK navy, determine if you can strafe Egypt. If not, keep covering Italians until more ground forces arrive. Keep strat bombing UK Egypt factory. Reinforce Syria, Egypt, or Alexandria as appropriate. Keep building tanks and mechs to kill Russia.
J4: Kill India with everything you can while holding off any Alled forces that are threatening you.
I4: Start heading south from Egypt unless there is a UK factory in Persia/Iraq. If so, you need to work with Germany to overwhelm it while holding onto Egypt – once it is dead, then you have to kill South Africa by yourself.

With this plan, it does not matter if the UK turtles Egypt – you now have a one punch (Italy) and two-punch (Germany) that combined can either overwhelm Egypt or bypass Egypt with the two punch to go for the Middle East. If the Egypt forces pull out to contest the Germans in the Middle East, the Italians walk in – in essence, you are forcing the UK to choose between giving you Egypt and giving you the Middle East.

The extra money from the Middle East allows you to build more defenses in Europe if the US is doing KGF and if the US is doing KJF forces it to reconsider, which allows Japan to make hay in the Pacific.

What has been accomplished:
1. The Middle East can now only be contested by Russia, which cannot afford to do it if you are pushing hard against Moscow. Remember that Japan has been taking income from Russia since J1 as well, and that is going to start having a magnified effect.
2. The UK’s income has been severely depleted.
3. German and/or Italian incomes have been supplemented.
4. If the UK chose a hard turtle with all air forces for Egypt, you own the Med. Now the US has to contest it or cede it to attack Europe. Either way, you make a lot of money or gain a lot of time to kill Russia. If on the other hand there is a sizable UK fleet, you got Egypt. That fleet cannot take Egypt away from you! If the fleet is there, 1-2 punch it (Italy, then Germany, being sure to lose ships before planes!) and concentrate on collecting money and defending Europe.
5. From France or West Germany, the Luftwaffe combined with your German fleet in the Med should be able to take on a weak US fleet. You might even get lucky enough to force the US to completely abandon a theatre of the war effort!
6. This actually negates the possibility of a US landing in Spain, since the UK is not in a position to contain your activation of Turkey! Make sure you are also in a position to take Switzerland and Sweden (one infantry for each is all it takes).

Cha-ching! You might be delayed in taking Moscow for a couple of turns, but it should not matter. All the extra money coming helps you make up for that delay.

Let’s call this the Mediterranean Marshmallow, since Meinherr likes to name things. Don’t want him calling it his!

Again, these are broad strokes – I’m sure there’s a lot of fine tuning involved. Oh, in this variant you do not take Normandy. You are only giving up a little money, and in turn you are depriving the Allies of income and a factory they would normally get if you had taken it. It’s not a factory the Axis typically uses anyway!

Marsh

[simon33]

I think we can assume that UK_P weren’t dumb enough to DOW UK1. That would be suicide.

@Marshmallow:

J2: More China and Russia, keep the US out. If UKP and ANZAC were dumb enough to attack you, capitalize on it to deprive India of as much income as possible. Secure Yunnan as a landing field.

Often not possible. I will generally attack Hunnan China1 with 1art 2inf 1ftr. Hopefully, one inf has already been killed J1 but if not I will still chance it for at least one round. Two rounds if we both lose one but not two in the first round. Yunnan is attacked with a few inf. Depending on what is around I might go all in or just a few. You want to take it though.

Assuming that you don’t win the battle in Hunnan, what do you have in Kwangsi that can’t be beaten J2?

[MarshmallowofWar]

@simon33:

I think we can assume that UK_P weren’t dumb enough to DOW UK1. That would be suicide.

@Marshmallow:

J2: More China and Russia, keep the US out. If UKP and ANZAC were dumb enough to attack you, capitalize on it to deprive India of as much income as possible. Secure Yunnan as a landing field.

Often not possible. I will generally attack Hunnan China1 with 1art 2inf 1ftr. Hopefully, one inf has already been killed J1 but if not I will still chance it for at least one round. Two rounds if we both lose one but not two in the first round. Yunnan is attacked with a few inf. Depending on what is around I might go all in or just a few. You want to take it though.

Assuming that you don’t win the battle in Hunnan, what do you have in Kwangsi that can’t be beaten J2?

The entire Japanese air force, including aircraft from carriers unless UKP/ANZAC was dumb enough to attack me, and forces offloaded from transports from Japan. There is no way China can hold Yunnan alone. Yeah, you might get a plane or two, but I’ll kill ALL the Chinese in a single round of combat. Until China builds again, the only forces there will be Japanese.

Oh, and a number of folks on these boards do advocate UKP declaring war early to collect its NOs. That can be deterred by positioning Japanese fleet off India and other UKP convoy zones so that they if they do declare war you are doing convoy damage immediately.

Marsh

[simon33]

@Marshmallow:

J3: More China and Russia, keep the US out. If UKP and ANZAC were dumb enough to attack you, capitalize on it to deprive India of as much income as possible. Land all your planes in Yunnan. Get ready to kill India on J4.

This is where it may not be dumb to DOW. If not at war with Japan, if you are on Yunnan already but China don’t have enough to hold it and UK can make the difference. This is where it’s sensible to DOW. Attacking Kwangsi UK2 is also a possible and interesting move if there isn’t much there.

@Marshmallow:

The entire Japanese air force, including aircraft from carriers unless UKP/ANZAC was dumb enough to attack me, and forces offloaded from transports from Japan. There is no way China can hold Yunnan alone. Yeah, you might get a plane or two, but I’ll kill ALL the Chinese in a single round of combat. Until China builds again, the only forces there will be Japanese.

Oh, and a number of folks on these boards do advocate UKP declaring war early to collect its NOs. That can be deterred by positioning Japanese fleet off India and other UKP convoy zones so that they if they do declare war you are doing convoy damage immediately.

Marsh

Don’t get too worked up. Those aircraft can’t defend until you’ve held Yunnan for a turn.

Are you sure that people are saying to DOW UK1, not UK2?

[MarshmallowofWar]

Well, as I said it is broad strokes. I didn’t do a full board playthrough with analysis and branching.  :-D But, as I said, if UKP declares early, as long as you are in a Pacific to convoy them during their collect income phase and you capitalize on it to deprive them of income on your next Japanese turn, I don’t see that it hurts you – it actually hurts them more, since their slow movers cannot make it back to India in time and their fast movers can be cut off by a J3 capture of Burma. You’re actually kind of pinning them in Yunnan – if they move back, you get to take India’s money away AND kill the Chinese. If not, you get India cheaper  :mrgreen:

Marsh

[simon33]

I think your argument relied on being able to land planes on Yunnan J3. I don’t think that is particularly difficult to stop with reasonable dice. That’s why I suggested a game.

Perhaps Shan State is a reasonable alternative but harder to get to overland.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@simon33:

I think your argument relied on being able to land planes on Yunnan J3. I don’t think that is particularly difficult to stop with reasonable dice. That’s why I suggested a game.

Perhaps Shan State is a reasonable alternative but harder to get to overland.

I’ve never done online games and don’t really have the time to start until September due to my study and work burdens.

If the UK declares early, Japan could always take Ceylon and build an airbase on Kwangsi on J3. But in this case, if India knows what’s coming they are actually better off if they do not declare early. If they declare early I may not take Yunnan, but they have still split their forces (meaning slow movers can’t make it back to defend India proper) and will actually collect a lot less money on UK2 than they would otherwise. The India stack looks a whole lot more impressive if the UK does not declare til UK3.

Marsh

[MarshmallowofWar]

Problems with the MM (potentially):

1. Sun Tzu says to attack the enemy where he isn’t. In this case, UK Atlantic has zero pressure on it. It might be spending the bulk of its money in Egypt, but it might still be necessary to keep some air force back to keep it from doing early transports. Given all the money spent on fleet, I don’t like the idea of building additional air early in the game.
2. There is a possibility that the UK might try to use the South Africa MIC to try to contest the Middle East. This should not be dissuaded, as it is a strategic error on the UK’s part – that factory is the only thing keeping Italy from swaming over sub-Saharan Africa. If the UK wants to build fleet in South Africa, dance the happy dance and make sure Egypt can’t fall to an amphibious assault while Italy shows UK the error of the UK’s naval build…

I’m sure other issues will become clear as I think about this more.

Marsh

[simon33]

@Marshmallow:

If the UK declares early, Japan could always take Ceylon and build an airbase on Kwangsi on J3. But in this case, if India knows what’s coming they are actually better off if they do not declare early. If they declare early I may not take Yunnan, but they have still split their forces (meaning slow movers can’t make it back to defend India proper) and will actually collect a lot less money on UK2 than they would otherwise. The India stack looks a whole lot more impressive if the UK does not declare til UK3.

Marsh

I position to convoy on a UK2 DOW too.