If you try these ideas out youll see that its quite easy to “see” how this system works.
I don’t see how it works yet
like hows the naval dogfighting modelled?
fighters shouldn’t be able to freely choose a target to bomb if enemy fighters are around?
Not clear im not even sure the “tech” should be something that must be researched for a price.
first reduce the chance factor (still good to have some of it)
secondly give free research rolls
this models research happening eventually, but the power can speeds thing up if wanted to
also models certain resources that can’t be deverted elsewhere anyway…
we shall come back to this in the technology thread
they had acquired increasingly sophisticated sonar technology. They had some of it from the start of the war.
so for the start of the war the ability of DD to protect BB against “first strike” SS hits should be fairly weak, latter shots should be easy to screen against
OH BTW 2 or more subs together get a +1 combat modifier… forgot to add this idea ( wolf pack concept)
oooh only 2 SS to get the wolf pack? maybe too strong?
yes but in a game their has to be some ability to fight back.
no? just like how INF can’t kill FTR? although on a different serverity
yeah sure, I am just saying the ability is big fight back against a submarine that just fired, and small against a submarine that hasn’t been firing, with my firing and non-firing thingo rule
I mean surface ships keep firing
but submarines have hiding to do, submerging and remerging now and then
1 shore bombardment shot per X attacking INF
vs.
1 possible shore bombardment casualty per X attack INF
did you notice your argument is based on your rule itself? :-P
on the one hand you want bombardment shots per X attacking INF, on the other hand you want you let ships support INF 1-to-1
whats are you modelling?
maybe my rule works under your logic too
it just needs to be tuned
say 1 possible shore bombardment casualty per 2 or 4 attacking INF?
(40BB and 2INF –attack–> 10 INF, all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting corpse though :lol: because the defender won’t send 10INF to the coast to fight 2 INF)
I don’t really like that 1-to-1 bonus
I think I see you are modelling
preemptive shore shots - shots opening the battle
1-to-1 bonus - the other are shots through the battle
but once your troops move inland your warships can’t really help can they? that why I don’t like that 1-to-1 bonus!
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If you try these ideas out youll see that its quite easy to “see” how this system works.
I don’t see how it works yet
like hows the naval dogfighting modelled?
fighters shouldn’t be able to freely choose a target to bomb if enemy fighters are around?
++++ when their is combat actions all air to air combat is performed seperately.
As the attacking forces you send over bombers and fighters to engage defending land forces, however your opponent decides to perform DAS mission and intercept you from a territory adjacent from the originally attacked territory. The planes combat rolls are now handled differently because now the defender has fighters in his defense. As the attacker your escorting fighters are also protecting your bombers and thats why the defender is not allowed to decide where any causaulties are allocated to. Is this clear?
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Not clear im not even sure the “tech” should be something that must be researched for a price.
first reduce the chance factor (still good to have some of it)
secondly give free research rolls
this models research happening eventually, but the power can speeds thing up if wanted to
also models certain resources that can’t be deverted elsewhere anyway…
we shall come back to this in the technology thread
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they had acquired increasingly sophisticated sonar technology. They had some of it from the start of the war.
so for the start of the war the ability of DD to protect BB against “first strike” SS hits should be fairly weak, latter shots should be easy to screen against
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OH BTW 2 or more subs together get a +1 combat modifier… forgot to add this idea ( wolf pack concept)
oooh only 2 SS to get the wolf pack? maybe too strong?
again this is an outline… 3 may work better but not in playtesting
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yes but in a game their has to be some ability to fight back.
no? just like how INF can’t kill FTR? although on a different serverity
yeah sure, I am just saying the ability is big fight back against a submarine that just fired, and small against a submarine that hasn’t been firing, with my firing and non-firing thingo rule
I mean surface ships keep firing
but submarines have hiding to do, submerging and remerging now and then
+++++ it goes like this: the sub can decide to take action on surface ships, when they do this they are also giving away their position. This is not secret ninja warfare… some accountability has to be accorded to the sub that launched a strike. However, once it strikes it still gets to allocate hits before the defender has a chance to counter with a round of ASW. How is this not fair?
1 shore bombardment shot per X attacking INF
vs.
1 possible shore bombardment casualty per X attack INF
+++++ this is not the proper rule:
1 shore bombardment shot per 4 attacking INF
vs.
1 possible shore bombardment casualty per 4 attack INF
on the one hand you want bombardment shots per X attacking INF, on the other hand you want you let ships support INF 1-to-1
whats are you modelling?
+++++ 1) the shore bomberdment of the free shot is a modification of OOB rules but preventing the types of previous invasions in AAR. 2) The supporting shots are continuing broadsides that model the constant shelling of defending positions WHILE INFANTRY HAS ALLREADY LANDED… JUST LIKE WE HAVE WITH ARTILLERY IN OOB. thats why its 1/1 basis because like artillery they are helping out the infantry. The free shot for every 4 infantry landed represents the surprise factor and is a continuity from the previous larry harris idea… only modified so as not to allow 4 bb getting 4 shots and landing 1-2 infantry.
maybe my rule works under your logic too
it just needs to be tuned
say 1 possible shore bombardment casualty per 2 or 4 attacking INF?
(40BB and 2INF --attack–> 10 INF, all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting corpse though because the defender won’t send 10INF to the coast to fight 2 INF)
40 bb get nothing as free shots with only 2 infantry, they only boost the infantry +1 for THE FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT ONLY
WHY ONLY FIRST ROUND? because they are really far away unlike artillery which is closer and can spot the enemy better than some BB far out in the ocean.
I don’t really like that 1-to-1 bonus
I think I see you are modelling
preemptive shore shots - shots opening the battle
1-to-1 bonus - the other are shots through the battle
++++ yes your SEEING the idea its not unlike artillery support and its consistent idea from OOB… only advanced to reflect historical based solution which is what were after.
but once your troops move inland your warships can’t really help can they? that why I don’t like that 1-to-1 bonus!
++++Its only the first round… thats why.
Is this clear?
yes its clear now
I was confused before because I didn’t know you meant the dogfighting procedure from land combat applies to naval combat too
the sub can decide to take action on surface ships
yeah, and I am saying this decision happens in every cycle of combat
this way you don’t get the situation that once a submarine fired it is simply detected or easily detected for the rest of the combat
again this is an outline… 3 may work better but not in playtesting
actually it won’t be realistic
the bonus should be based on relatively numbers like “more submarines than enemy destroyer+cruiser”
The free shot for every 4 infantry landed represents the surprise factor
my rule still represents the surprise factory
more BBs then more chance of doing up to the maximum damage
(40BB and 2INF –attack–> 10 INF, all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting corpse though because the defender won’t send 10INF to the coast to fight 2 INF)
++++40 bb get nothing as free shots with only 2 infantry,
sorry my bad, bad example…need 4 INF
10 BB and 4 INF --attack–> 10 INF
my rule: all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting 1 INF max, higher chance if more BBs fire…better model I think
your rule: only 1 BB gets to fire, it might hit 1 INF, the other BBs only enjoy the fireworks…
friendly reminder, you didn’t comment on sonor tech suggestion
before sonor tech: weak sonor, DD/CA has 33% chance of protecting a ship
after sonor: strong sonor, DD/CA 100% chance of protecting a ship
Yes the sonar rule should change the value by one
from 2 to 3…
I just spend all day yesterday playtesting with 2 groups of people all these rules… it will take alot of time to recount our experience but i will do so as i have time… right now i have to finish latter.
1. so what did they feel about the automatic detect of submarines that fired before? :-D
2. was wolf pack too powerful? did they sugguest it should be based on relative size of submarine to enemy ships?
3. sure they found sending 1 BB the same effect (in bombardment) as 4 BBs with an amphibious invasion of 4 INF a little odd?
or sending 4 BBs the same effect (in both bomardment and first cycle bonus) as 16 BBs odd? :-P
1. so what did they feel about the automatic detect of submarines that fired before?
++++OK we scrapped that rule… ships that qualify for ASW have to keep rolling for detection… no more automatics… problem was easily fixed… or subs are gonners.
2. was wolf pack too powerful? did they sugguest it should be based on relative size of submarine to enemy ships?
++++No it worked very well with +1 in groups it gave germany a chance, plus we gave germans 6 dollar u boats and they were able to do damage against uk’s economy. it was another path (as opposed to building a fleet) to basically stop the allied franch invasion.
3. sure they found sending 1 BB the same effect (in bombardment) as 4 BBs with an amphibious invasion of 4 INF a little odd?
or sending 4 BBs the same effect (in both bomardment and first cycle bonus) as 16 BBs odd?
+++++HUH? this is not the correct interpretation of the rule: 1 bb shot for 4 inf on the first round (preemtive) plus each ship (BB, CA, DD moving along with the invasion boosts one infantry +1 for the first round at a 1/1 basis. These were actually less effective than in OOB rules which is what were going after.
what didnt look right was the idea that we took all our planes and got a major kill zone against unsupported defending infantry ( all preemtive and he didnt have any planes in range for DAS missions) That was done in norway. we killed many infantry this way.
OK we scrapped that rule… ships that qualify for ASW have to keep rolling for detection… no more automatics… problem was easily fixed… or subs are gonners.
so now how does OOB submarine’s ability to submerge and end combat for itself…fit into all this?
I reckon it shouldn’t be removed from combat for good…it should be allowed to surface again and fight later…while submerged (thus not shooting) it should be very difficult to detect it…maybe ASW search rolls detecting on 1 for those particular submarines.
No it worked very well with +1 in groups it gave germany a chance, plus we gave germans 6 dollar u boats and they were able to do damage against uk’s economy. it was another path (as opposed to building a fleet) to basically stop the allied franch invasion.
Yeah. But I saying maybe the bonus should also require number of SS to be significant with respect to number of enemy ships.
HUH? this is not the correct interpretation of the rule
I read agian. No I don’t think its incorrect interpretation.
Anyway I am just again pushing you to change from number of “preemptive shots” to “preemptive damage”, per 4 attacking INF.
Its pretty much the same, maybe a tiny bit stronger.
I just don’t like the idea of stopping the other BBs from firing. My rule lets additional BBs should increase your chance of hitting, while not increasing the max. damage capable.
what didnt look right was the idea that we took all our planes and got a major kill zone against unsupported defending infantry ( all preemtive and he didnt have any planes in range for DAS missions) That was done in norway. we killed many infantry this way.
I don’t see whats wrong with that.
Air units easily killing unprotected land units. Thats alright.
OK we scrapped that rule… ships that qualify for ASW have to keep rolling for detection… no more automatics… problem was easily fixed… or subs are gonners.
so now how does OOB submarine’s ability to submerge and end combat for itself…fit into all this?
I reckon it shouldn’t be removed from combat for good…it should be allowed to surface again and fight later…while submerged (thus not shooting) it should be very difficult to detect it…maybe ASW search rolls detecting on 1 for those particular submarines.
++++++After any round subs can submerge or retreat. this ends combat. If this was done after round one, then naval units can continue movement. that way no sub stall problems unless you want to waste 2-3 subs as blocking units… which can be expensive. ASW is at 2 and latter it moves to 3 (after tech moves up). This could work whether your going after subs or they are going after you. If we modify this to a one… in the case if your trying to kill subs… i feel subs will totally cripple the UK economy with attacks on its income and never get defeated… perhaps at the start of the war it can be a one, then two and finally 3 to simulate the two “happy times” of the german Kreigmarine.
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No it worked very well with +1 in groups it gave germany a chance, plus we gave germans 6 dollar u boats and they were able to do damage against uk’s economy. it was another path (as opposed to building a fleet) to basically stop the allied franch invasion.
Yeah. But I saying maybe the bonus should also require number of SS to be significant with respect to number of enemy ships.
+++++++++++ each sub is about 30 subs so 60 subs is quite a wolfpack…
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HUH? this is not the correct interpretation of the rule
I read agian. No I don’t think its incorrect interpretation.
Anyway I am just again pushing you to change from number of “preemptive shots” to “preemptive damage”, per 4 attacking INF.
Its pretty much the same, maybe a tiny bit stronger.
I just don’t like the idea of stopping the other BBs from firing. My rule lets additional BBs should increase your chance of hitting, while not increasing the max. damage capable.
+++++ they are not stopped from firing… instead they boost infantry at 1/1 basis +1 first round… this is also shorebombardment, only less effective.
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what didnt look right was the idea that we took all our planes and got a major kill zone against unsupported defending infantry ( all preemtive and he didnt have any planes in range for DAS missions) That was done in norway. we killed many infantry this way.
I don’t see whats wrong with that.
Air units easily killing unprotected land units. Thats alright.
+++++ yes true but it didnt feel too good to the other player. i guess its correct… BTW he did have alot of air ( 10 planes)
@Imperious:
each sub is about 30 subs so 60 subs is quite a wolfpack…
This comes to what is wolf pack about anyway?
In what way did the submarines fight more effectively?
I was thinking if the submarine number is insignficant compared to the enemy fleet it wouldn’t make a difference.
Say 10 subs or 20 subs attack 100 destroyers?
they are not stopped from firing… instead they boost infantry at 1/1 basis +1 first round… this is also shorebombardment, only less effective.
Yeah I know. But they are stopped from firing for shore bombardment.
I don’t understand why additional BBs don’t help during bombardment.
With my rule we have good chance (66.7%) of killing one defending land unit when sending 4 attacking INF…but 88.9% for one more BB, or 96.3% if you bring yet one more, and 98.8% if you bring 4 BBs in total.
I guess its not a big thing but anyway.
yes true but it didnt feel too good to the other player. i guess its correct… BTW he did have alot of air ( 10 planes)
Its fine. In fact he could have done that (the killing part by the planes) with a purely air attack.
each sub is about 30 subs so 60 subs is quite a wolfpack…
This comes to what is wolf pack about anyway?
In what way did the submarines fight more effectively?
I was thinking if the submarine number is insignficant compared to the enemy fleet it wouldn’t make a difference.
Say 10 subs or 20 subs attack 100 destroyers?
Yes you have a point… the wolfpack idea is only something to help germany conduct and compete with UK since they have 6 IPC subs and now another goody with +1 with 2 + subs modifier. So what do you propose? a wolfpack is a good idea to simulate the tactics of submarine warfare w/o getting too tactical.
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they are not stopped from firing… instead they boost infantry at 1/1 basis +1 first round… this is also shorebombardment, only less effective.
Yeah I know. But they are stopped from firing for shore bombardment.
I don’t understand why additional BBs don’t help during bombardment.
With my rule we have good chance (66.7%) of killing one defending land unit when sending 4 attacking INF…but 88.9% for one more BB, or 96.3% if you bring yet one more, and 98.8% if you bring 4 BBs in total.
+++OK what exactly is this rule? post it please.
I guess its not a big thing but anyway.
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yes true but it didnt feel too good to the other player. i guess its correct… BTW he did have alot of air ( 10 planes)
Its fine. In fact he could have done that (the killing part by the planes) with a purely air attack.
@Imperious:
So what do you propose? a wolfpack is a good idea to simulate the tactics of submarine warfare w/o getting too tactical.
I proposed earlier it could be relative to number of friendly SS to enemy DD+CA.
How about 2 more SS than DD+CA ?
2 SS attack 1 CV –—> wolfpack bonus
2 SS attack 1 CV + 1 DD -----> no bonus
3 SS attack 1 CV + 1 DD -----> wolfpack bonus
OK what exactly is this rule? post it please.
Unchanged from what I also proposed this earlier.
All BBs perform shore bombardment. But limited to 1 casualty every 4 attacking INF.
All BBs support infantry with +1 bonus, on 1-to-1 basis.
OK both of these look fine… well wait for dukes take on this. for now it stands as it is.
Was playtesting today
The screening or protecting ability of DD seemed weird.
The BB and CV can absorb two hits.
So you have to like not get your DDs to protect your BB sand CVs in 1st cycle it, and then protect them in the second.
The ASW seems weak.
Searching on 2 or less, and then hitting on 2 or less…
When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.
Is that the intentional?
The screening or protecting ability of DD seemed weird.
The BB and CV can absorb two hits.
So you have to like not get your DDs to protect your BB sand CVs in 1st cycle it, and then protect them in the second.
+++++ not a good idea. after one combat round you may retreat so when you pair off your ships you may want to “look” at the bigger picture of only sustaining one rounds worth of hits by subs. also i dont know how many subs were attacking. but say they had 3 subs. Id protect the CV with one ship and the BB with the other ship. Say the subs are placed as follows: all three on the CV… hoping to hit three times! they only get 2 hits ( not preemtive due to DD being around) . the destroyer is hit and the CV takes one hit. Now the 2 DD roll for search… they locate the subs on the last roll. Now all three ( 2 DD and BB) each get one roll and score 1 hit. The DD is removed from play and one sub is gone. At this point the subs submerge and play is over in this case.
The ASW seems weak.
Searching on 2 or less, and then hitting on 2 or less…
+++++ it reflects a balance of what the subs themselves add to the game. If ships can kill at 3+ or only 1, then subs will have little effect , or ships will have little effect against subs.
When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.
++++ this is not correct interpretation… The DD STOPS the preemtive attack of subs… the dd still gets to roll for search and if succesful again rolls for attacks.
Submarine Combat
This form of combat is always performed separately from normal naval combat. During the active players phase, submarines can make attacks on naval units and/or economic attacks on an enemy’s convoy box. When used against naval units they can be moved or simply activated from an enemy occupied sea zone and select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a two or less. This shot is targeted by the submarine and is preemptive so all hits are removed before the defender has a chance to roll for surviving naval units. Exceptions: the preemptive targeted submarine shot is negated by the presence of at least one Cruiser or Destroyer unit. Secondly, each Cruiser or Destroyer unit can “screen out†one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis so that the targeted submarine hit goes against these or other unscreened units instead. Only when the “screening†ship(s) are sunk can the “protected†ship be targeted. Otherwise if any ships remain then a search roll may then be performed. Hits on ships that are performing this duty cannot assign their hits to other units in order to make loses “cheaperâ€.
Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
The presence of defending Cruisers and/or Destroyers negates attacking submarines’ 1st shot preemptive attack. They are also possessing special capabilities of attacking submarines with ASW warfare and tactics.
First each defending Cruiser or Destroyer unit is then assigned one roll to perform a search of enemy submarine that are attacking with success on any roll of two or less. If they fail to locate the submarine(s), then the sub can then end combat and remain in the sea zone, or it can conduct another round of combat. If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships receive a new search roll each round until they successfully locate the submarine. Once submarines have been located Cruisers, Destroyers and now Battleships can all defend with a new roll of two or less against the submarine(s). This is known as Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW). No other types of ships can perform ASW rolls. Note: the ASW search roll is always separate from the roll that represents the ability to attack submarines in ASW.
After specific turns advancements in naval radar and sonar technology USA and UK can modify the ability for ASW as follows:
Each roll is now done separately until the submarine is sighted. Once the submarines are sighted each Cruiser, Destroyer and now Battleships can then each receive one new roll against attacking the submarines hitting on a two or less. If the submarine is not sighted then another round of combat occurs until either all ships are sunk or either side withdraws from further combat (subs can remain in the sea zone (submerge) while either side can also retreat to another sea zones).
Movement thru zones occupied by enemy submarines:
When the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones. No combat occurs in this case. If the enemy submarine is placed “on station†it can attempt to engage those surface ships in combat. In this case movement must stop and those ships will now be engaged by the passive player’s submarine(s). In this case your ships can continue to move into other sea zones (up to their full movement allowance) providing naval combat does not take more than one round.
When as the active player you decide you want to attack enemy submarines with ASW warfare, each Cruiser or Destroyer can each participate in a similar manner to above under ASW rules. If these units fail to find the submarine, the enemy submarine and your ships simply remain in the sea zone till the following turn.
Summary of Submarine Combat:
Summary of ASW Naval Combat:
Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support
During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a primary combat value of two or higher have one preemptive “shore bombardment†attack. In order to support landings you must land four Land units to receive one shore bombardment shot. Defenders losses do not fire back. In addition, each warship (whether supporting or not) improves one attacking infantry unit with an attack die roll modifier of +1 on the first round only. So if you only land 3 Infantry, you still get each of them with a +1 modifier provided you have at least three warships with an attack value of two. Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not shore bombard or provide infantry support for amphibious assaults.
Defending Artillery fire in Amphibious Assault
Following shore bombardment attacks, any defending artillery units present then receive one round of preemptive fire upon invading enemy units. Hits are taken first (chosen by the attacker) and removed from play. Land combat then follows in the normal manner starting with section #2.
First Round land combat restrictions
The attacker’s first land combat phase is restricted to Infantry only (including Airborne).
So to summarize invasions:
4) Shore bombardment (preemptive).
5) Defender artillery fire support (preemptive).
6) Tactical Air Command missions against defending air units/ land units (preemptive if only land units are defending).
7) Attacking Infantry can attack on round one; all other land units can attack on round two or latter.
8) Defender rolls for all land units (except Artillery which fired).
9) Continue combat rounds until one side is destroyed or retreats from battle.
@Imperious:
Say the subs are placed as follows: all three on the CV… hoping to hit three times!
Oh yeah. How can I forgot about that. Submarines can “focus fire”.
it reflects a balance of what the subs themselves add to the game. If ships can kill at 3+ or only 1, then subs will have little effect , or ships will have little effect against subs.
Thats alright then. I don’t know the historic information about sumbarine combat.
Like who should do better when a destroyer combats with a submarine?
When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.
++++ this is not correct interpretation… The DD STOPS the preemtive attack of subs… the dd still gets to roll for search and if succesful again rolls for attacks.
But I am talking about the odds of hitting. 33% for submarines. 11% for destroyers.
Again this could be ok…I don’t know historically how well destroyers fights submarines.
Thats alright then. I don’t know the historic information about sumbarine combat.
Like who should do better when a destroyer combats with a submarine?
++++ ok say one sub went after a DD… The DD has to jump thru more hoops because it need to roll twice at 1-2 to sink the sub, while the sub only has one roll. The Sub automatically locates the DD, while the DD has to search first. plus if the sub is near any sea zone off you nation it can perform an economic attack costing you money. The sub however cant attack planes and it cant be involved in surface combat with other ships. thats done seperately. I belive each has something to offer, plus after sufficient tech occurs the DD has a better roll on the subs, while in the case of german type XX1 uboats (a tech letter in the war) Germany can turn the tide once more.
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When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.
++++ this is not correct interpretation… The DD STOPS the preemtive attack of subs… the dd still gets to roll for search and if succesful again rolls for attacks.
But I am talking about the odds of hitting. 33% for submarines. 11% for destroyers.
Again this could be ok…I don’t know historically how well destroyers fights submarines.
++++ As stated before its true that a DD has to roll twice at 1-2 to sink a sub. this is historical. Its much harder to sink subs then it is to send torpedos while in stealth underwater.Latter with technology… this begins to change
How does air units fit in the naval hit allocation system?
Group1: BB CV
Group2: DD
Group3: TR
Group4: FTR and BMR
I am thinking of making TR hits can only be allocated against TR.
That system is only ship to ship combat. air units should target like subs the ships they want… except each DD and CA again screens out one capital ship 1/1 basis. also each ship fires first at some modified aa value and hits are preemtive. so any planes left over get to fire at which ships they want. CA is a aa gun platform so id make them the strongest against planes. next should be the bb and last carriers and DD. Transports have no defense at all.
idea:
CA roll 1-4
BB rolls 1-3
CA rolls 1-2
DD rolls 1
each ship only gets one roll preemtive EACH ROUND.
Ships protecting other ships from air attacks?
Its realistic right?
So for land combat statistically about 10% of fighters were downed by antiaircraft.
What were the figures for naval combat?
Air units fighting without carriers
For land combat we decided, for now, to make air units without supporting land units fire for one cycle and then retreat.
For naval combat, we would have something like this?
“At the end of a combat cycle you must retreat air units excess to your carrier capacity.”
This happens to stop air units from land performing multiple combat cycle against enemy ships.
