Sub vs planes w/w out DD: HR to limit subs-fodder and to keep equity

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

Another thought occurred to me regarding the problem of 1 DD and a bunch of planes wiping out sub stacks.
How about a house rule where each destroyer can ONLY target 1 submarine for aircraft to shoot at, no matter how many aircraft you have.
So, if you come in with 1 destroyer and 5 planes against a stack of 5 subs, only 1 sub will be in danger of being hit by the planes. However, ALL 5 subs get their defensive shot against that destroyer. Assuming the first sub is hit by the planes, the remaining 4 now can submerge from battle. Of course, if the destroyer is hit, then the subs don’t even have to submerge because the planes can no longer see them anyway.
This way, if you want to go after a stack of 5 subs with a bunch of planes, you will still need 5 destroyers to spot them all.

If I follow you, it means that 1 DD+ 5 planes can only destroy up to 2 Subs max.
Do you imply A) that DD have a designated target and all the planes have another one subs?
Implying that if the DD miss, then only 1 sub can be destroy by all planes.

Or B) just that once all 6 attack rolls made, up to 2 subs can be sink even if the DD didn’t get a hit?

If B, then it would mean that each Destroyer unit (with any number of planes) can only search and destroy up to 2 subs per round.

So 3 DDs+ 6 planes can destroy up to 6 subs, and doesn’t matter if all the 3 DDs get no hits and the 6 planes get them.

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

Another thought occurred to me regarding the problem of 1 DD and a bunch of planes wiping out sub stacks.
How about a house rule where each destroyer can ONLY target 1 submarine for aircraft to shoot at, no matter how many aircraft you have.
So, if you come in with 1 destroyer and 5 planes against a stack of 5 subs, only 1 sub will be in danger of being hit by the planes. However, ALL 5 subs get their defensive shot against that destroyer. Assuming the first sub is hit by the planes, the remaining 4 now can submerge from battle. Of course, if the destroyer is hit, then the subs don’t even have to submerge because the planes can no longer see them anyway.
This way, if you want to go after a stack of 5 subs with a bunch of planes, you will still need 5 destroyers to spot them all.

A few minutes before reading your post, I was thinking about something in the same line of thought of your post.  :-o

Limiting somehow the DD capacity to give all planes to attack all subs in a SZ per a given round can be a better solution than my previous posts because it is less aliens to A&A mechanics.

The basic trouble is causes by this fact :
Destroyer unit is the only unit, which can combine with an infinite number of an other units,
giving this capacity to attack sub to any number of planes.
All others units need a pairing match 1:1 to give or receive a bonus.

If this limitation above is added, what do you do when there is some warships with DD+planes?
Does the limit is still kept?
Example: 2 DDs + 1 Cruiser + 6 planes vs  9 Subs.

Can only 4 subs be destroyed?
Even when there is 2 hits from the DDs, 5 from the planes and none for the cruiser?

Or can only 4 subs be destroyed?
Even when there is 5 hits from the planes and 1 from the cruiser, for example?

Or 5 subs be destroyed?
Because of 4 hits out of the 5 from the planes (allowed by the 2 DDs) + 1 hit from the cruiser (no limitation from DD since subs can target Cruiser)?

Does the limitation ruled out this way:
2 subs/DD unit + 1 sub/warship unit and all the hits can come from the planes?

So the 5 hits of planes + 0 hit from DD and CA would destroy the 5 subs.

Or just consider all the limitations apply only to DDs+planes as a group, then roll normally for all the other warships and apply any results as OOB?

Or maybe, I misunderstood your HR, and I should have follow the A interpretation?
So, since their is only 2 DDs, it means only 2 hits out of the 5 from planes (in the last example) will be taking into account.
Assuming the 2 DDs and 1 CA missed, then it results in only 2 destroyed Subs.

[knp7765]

I would say that each Destroyer can only target 1 sub for aircraft.
If the Destroyer gets a hit, then ONE other sub can be targeted by aircraft.
So, in your example above: 2 DD, 1 CA, 6 planes against 9 subs
Maximum possible hits on subs for first round of combat would be 5: 1 for each destroyer (2), 1 for the cruiser (1) and 1 for each destroyer targeting for aircraft (2)
After that, if the 9 subs managed to hit the 2 destroyers (or if you use my house rule that subs can submerge after first round even with DD present) then the surviving subs could submerge and combat would be over.
So, basically if you sent 1 DD and 1 plane against 2 subs, and both got hits, then both subs could be sunk. However, if you sent 1 DD and 2 planes against 3 subs and all 3 got hits, only 2 subs would die. You could consider the 2nd aircraft hit as “insurance” for getting that 2nd sub.
This just seems more fair to me. No more slaughtering stacks of subs with aircraft willy-nilly.
Also, while subs only defend @ 1, a stack of 4 or 5 could very possibly get at least one “1” leaving the attacker with no destroyer. So attackers would realize it might not be worth sending just a couple of destroyers and a bunch of planes after a stack of subs if they could only get 4 of them and lose their destroyers. Losing a couple of destroyers might be worth it if you can wipe out 9 or 10 subs. Only getting a max of 4 subs and leaving your enemy with a still decent stack of subs wouldn’t be so good.

[baron Münchhausen]

So, basically if you sent 1 DD and 1 plane against 2 subs, and both got hits, then both subs could be sunk. However, if you sent 1 DD and 2 planes against 3 subs and all 3 got hits, only 2 subs would die. You could consider the 2nd aircraft hit as “insurance” for getting that 2nd sub.

What happen if sending 1 DD and 2 planes against 2 subs, but the DD miss and the 2 planes get a hit?

Does both subs are destroyed?

Or just 1 sub because this rule

each Destroyer can only target 1 sub for aircraft

just means that?

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

I would say that each Destroyer can only target 1 sub for aircraft.
If the Destroyer gets a hit, then ONE other sub can be targeted by aircraft.

This just seems more fair to me. No more slaughtering stacks of subs with aircraft willy-nilly.
Also, while subs only defend @ 1, a stack of 4 or 5 could very possibly get at least one “1” leaving the attacker with no destroyer. So attackers would realize it might not be worth sending just a couple of destroyers and a bunch of planes after a stack of subs if they could only get 4 of them and lose their destroyers. Losing a couple of destroyers might be worth it if you can wipe out 9 or 10 subs. Only getting a max of 4 subs and leaving your enemy with a still decent stack of subs wouldn’t be so good.

Your actual ratio is:
1 DDs + 1 Fgs = 18 IPCs (08 IPCs can be lost: 31%), can destroy up to 12 IPCs (17%) worth of 2 Subs.
A2+A3= 5 pts vs 2 pts (2D1)  0 subs: 33%, 1 sub 50%

2 DDs + 2 Fgs = 36 IPCs (16 IPCs can be lost: 13%), can destroy up to 24 IPCs (3%) worth of 4 Subs.
A4+A6= 10 pts vs 4 pts (4D1)  0 subs: 11%, 1 sub 34%, 2 subs 35%, 3 subs 17%

3 DDs + 3 Fgs = 54 IPCs (24 IPCs can be lost: 6%), can destroy up to 32 IPCs (0%) worth of 6 Subs.
A6+A9= 15 pts vs 6 pts (6D1) 0 subs: 4%, 2 sub 31%, 4 subs 16%, 5 subs 4%

What happen if you use this rule instead:
I would say that each Destroyer unit can target up to 2 subs for aircraft. In addition to the DD’s target.
Whether or not the Destroyer gets a hit,  TWO other subs can still be targeted by aircrafts.
For a maximum of 3 Subs destroyed/DD. But only 2 Subs if the DD miss.

In game play, just add the number of attacking DDs multiply by 2, and it gives the maximum number of Subs which can be sink by the planes (rolled them separately).

Two hits from the aircraft per DD is it already too much?
2 DDs = 4 hits max/aircrafts group
3 DDs = 6 hits max/aircrafts group

1 DDs + 2 Fgs = 28 IPCs (08 IPCs can be lost: 42%), can destroy up to 18 IPCs (8%) worth of 3 Subs.
A2+A6= 8 pts vs 3 pts (3D1) 0 subs: 17%, 1 sub 41%, 2 subs 34%
2 DDs + 4 Fgs = 56 IPCs (16 IPCs can be lost), can destroy up to 36 IPCs worth of 6 Subs.
A4+A12= 16 pts vs 6 pts (6D1)
3 DDs + 6 Fgs = 84 IPCs (24 IPCs can be lost), can destroy up to 54 IPCs worth of 9 Subs.
A6+A18= 24 pts vs 9 pts (9D1)

I thought it is also more consistent with a minimal fleet taskforce:
1 Sub, 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 2 planes, 1 BB.
Since there is two planes on board a single carrier, both should be able to get a hit on subs.
1 DD+ 1 CV + 2 Fgs = 44 IPCs vs around 7 subs (42 IPCs).

You should be at least be able to destroy up to 3 subs in a given round with 3 units (DD, 2 Fgs) to provide a decent cover for carrier.

Since, it is less restrictive than 1DD=1 Sub targeted by aircrafts,
the 1 DD = 2 Subs targeted by aircrafts must be combine with your other HR:

After that, if the 9 subs managed to hit the 2 destroyers (or if you use my house rule that subs can submerge after first round even with DD present) then the surviving subs could submerge and combat would be over.

What do you think?

[crusaderiv]

Just an example of the questions/details which need to be solved:
In the same SZ there is 2 Subs groups (UK+USA, for example), when a plane roll “2 or less” which group is found? Attacker’s choice ? Defender’s choice? Both group is found but casualty is defenders choice.

The attacker choose the sub UK or USA.

What happens if you throw DDs in this SZ with the planes? Are they attacking before, after, simultaneously?
The air search patrol = combat movement.
If a sub is found = combat.
(Air search patrol must be conduct before any other naval attack)

If there is subs + warships in the SZ, (UKs Sub+ USA loaded carriers, for example) can the planes from the carrier can defend @4 against the Air Search Patrol?
Fighter never defend sub but they can intercept the air search patrol plane.

Do you treat subs group in a SZ as a separate fleet from other warships (UKs Subs + Uk loaded carrier) much like they were in 2 different SZ?
So you can search and attack subs without attacking surface warships? Yes. In our game… sub are independent from the others warships.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

Just an example of the questions/details which need to be solved:
In the same SZ there is 2 Subs groups (UK+USA, for example), when a plane roll “2 or less” which group is found? Attacker’s choice ? Defender’s choice? Both group is found but casualty is defenders choice.

The attacker choose the sub UK or USA.

Do you treat subs group in a SZ as a separate fleet from other warships (UKs Subs + Uk loaded carrier) much like they were in 2 different SZ?
So you can search and attack subs without attacking surface warships?

Yes. In our game… sub are independent from the others warships.

Very interesting…  :-)

Did you post somewhere on the forum the details of your house rules on the Subs warfare mechanics and your Air Search Patrol?

I first thought that independent subs was too complex but you give me hope.  :-D

I ask because I think there is much more details to get a complete picture of what you just explained in your two posts.

For instance,

You said attacker’s plane choose but what happen when there is an overkill?
For example: 2 UK’s subs+ 1 USA subs.
Let’s suppose 4 planes gets 3 hits.
Does it means that either only 2 UK’s subs are busted or the 1 USA sub is?

If it’s the case, I wonder why you didn’t House Rule “all the subs treated as a whole” instead.
(It seems simpler to me.)

I need further explanations, just another example of what is missing:
How does it works for subs on attack? Are they independent also?

Thanks for your answer,

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

If there is subs + warships in the SZ, (UKs Sub+ USA loaded carriers, for example) can the planes from the carrier can defend @4 against the Air Search Patrol?

Fighter never defend sub but they can intercept the air search patrol plane.

How do you treat the planes in the same SZ as Subs when defending against an Air Search Patrol?

Does it works like a scramble?
Defender choose how many planes will defend.
Or is it automatic?
So all planes defends against ASP?

Does attacking planes have to split their numbers between subs and other warships in the SZ?
Or they can take care of Subs first, then still attack the warships?
(Because it is only a single round on subs. The remaining combat rounds can be apply against the warships.)

Since the subs can submerge, the ASP is a single round attack, isn’t?

I wait impatiently your answers, I’m very very curious since you said you played with you ASP HR.

ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol  :-D

[General 6 Stars]

ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol  :-D

Use both in games  ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet  but it never attacks.
Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol  for subs.

ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time.

I play same game.

[General 6 Stars]

Since the subs can submerge, the ASP is a single round attack, isn’t?

Subs or Sub that survive first round of attack after ASP must
retreat or submerge.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol :-D

Use both in games  ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet � but it never attacks.
Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol  for subs.

ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time. I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

Why did you forbid a dual attack (Air Search with planes and Anti-Sub with DDs) against subs in the same SZ?

If you only have 2-3 fighters and 2-3 Destroyers, against 5-6 Subs, it will help that
Air Search attack first,
then Anti-Sub attacks the surviving subs.
No?

Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?
Does all subs can roll on defense or only 1/attacking DD or the subs don’t defend at all (since they are running silent, running deep)?

Does Cruiser, battleship and carrier can be part of an Anti-Sub with DDs or just DDs?

[General 6 Stars]

@Baron:

@SS:

ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol :-D

Use both in games � ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet � but it never attacks.
Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol � for subs.

ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time. I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

No I don’t

Why did you forbid a dual attack (Air Search with planes and Anti-Sub with DDs) against subs in the same SZ?

Thats just the way rule is. Crus can answer that better.

If you only have 2-3 fighters and 2-3 Destroyers, against 5-6 Subs, it will help that
Air Search attack first,
then Anti-Sub attacks the surviving subs.
No?

Its only air search or anti sub.

Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?

All destroyers roll a die to find subs then they roll another die to attack them.

Does all subs can roll on defense or only 1/attacking DD or the subs don’t defend at all (since they are running silent, running deep)?

Subs don’t defend and they must dive or retreat.

Does Cruiser, battleship and carrier can be part of an
Anti-Sub with DDs or just DDs?

No just Destroyers and escorts.

Crus, probably will correct anything I may have wrong.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks for your reply.

I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

No I don’t

So, where and how do you play the same game?
I’m puzzled.

Do you play Global only ? or 1942.2? when using these HRs?
Do you have to do a lot of changes to keep the balance?

[baron Münchhausen]

Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?

All destroyers roll a die to find subs then they roll another die to attack them.

Sorry, I don’t understand.
What happen if only 1 DD of a group of 3 DDs, for example, find subs during Anti-Sub Patrol?
Does all the 3 DDs can roll an attack on the subs?
Or only 1 DD can hope to destroy 1 sub?

[General Haig]

I love house rules they add a little flair to the game. But, I am hesitant to adopt ideas that take the current combat  system in more of a tactical direction. Historically aircraft were the real sub hunters and really increased their success rate with the use of radar. DDs usually are reactive to a subs presense when the sub attacks something. Now the DD is a sub hunter. Per your example 5 SS vs. 1 DD & 5 bombers, those subs out by themselves instead of acting as fodder for my battle fleet are either threatening something or trying to draw your eyes away by sacrificing themselves. The use of needing a DD present might abstractly represent radar tech for those aircraft. Radar + aircraft = Big problems for subs. If I put 5 SS out by themselves within range of aircraft and DDs I hope it is deliberate on my part to draw your priorities for those 5 bmbs away from what I am worried about other than a dumb placement. War is hell. After the first shot is fired most battle plans can be thrown away and then you place your trust in morale,training and initiative.

[General 6 Stars]

So, where and how do you play the same game?
I’m puzzled.

I play with my son in the US.  Crus has a group that plays in Canada.

Do you play Global only ? or 1942.2? when using these HRs?

We play Global 39.

Do you have to do a lot of changes to keep the balance?

No Just a tweak here or there.

[General 6 Stars]

Sorry, I don’t understand.
What happen if only 1 DD of a group of 3 DDs, for example, find subs during Anti-Sub Patrol?
Does all the 3 DDs can roll an attack on the subs?
Or only 1 DD can hope to destroy 1 sub?

If only 1 destroyer finds sub, then only that destroyer gets to attack the sub.
3 destroyers roll 1 die each. If they roll a 2 or less then destroyer has found the sub. 3 destroyers roll 1 die each and get a 6,5,1. 1 destroyer found a sub, then that destroyer rolls 1 die and gets a 2. Sub is sunk. 2 or less sinks subs.

[baron Münchhausen]

I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

No I don’t

Hi SS,
So, how are you sure that you play the same game (with the same house rules) as CrusaderIV since you don’t play with him?
I’m still puzzled.

G1939 is it an official variants? or just an Home one’s?

Another question for both you and CrusaderIV:

What is the subs mechanics on attack of your house rule?

1. Are they attacking with subs only in a separate phase?
     Are they attacking together with other warships?

2. And when only subs group attack a fleet in a SZ with Subs and warships,
     do they attack either subs or warships or subs & warships?
   Thanks for your replies.

[baron Münchhausen]

@General:

I love house rules they add a little flair to the game. But, I am hesitant to adopt ideas that take the current combat  system in more of a tactical direction. Historically aircraft were the real sub hunters and really increased their success rate with the use of radar. DDs usually are reactive to a subs presense when the sub attacks something. Now the DD is a sub hunter. Per your example 5 SS vs. 1 DD & 5 bombers, those subs out by themselves instead of acting as fodder for my battle fleet are either threatening something or trying to draw your eyes away by sacrificing themselves. The use of needing a DD present might abstractly represent radar tech for those aircraft. Radar + aircraft = Big problems for subs. If I put 5 SS out by themselves within range of aircraft and DDs I hope it is deliberate on my part to draw your priorities for those 5 bmbs away from what I am worried about other than a dumb placement. War is hell. After the first shot is fired most battle plans can be thrown away and then you place your trust in morale, training and initiative.

I agree with you on these two statements:

Historically aircraft were the real sub hunters and really increased their success rate with the use of radar.

DDs usually are reactive to a subs presense when the sub attacks something.

Now the DD is a sub hunter.

Do you see this as a problem?

I’m not sure to understand what you imply about the 1DD+5StB example.

ideas that take the current combat  system in more of a tactical direction.

True that what CrusaderIV and SS are talking about is effectively adding a little tactical element.

My opening post and taking account of the HR of Knp7765 was more intended to fit into the actual strategical level rules.

About the Air Search Patrol
I think it is intended to bring back a more historically accurate anti-sub role for aircrafts.
The new OOB rule for DD+Air is quite weirdo in itself, forbiding planes all alone to attack subs in a SZ is completely inaccurate.
Adding an Air Search Patrol phase before planes all alone can directly hit subs, let the subs little more chance to survive and not just be sitting duck (as it was in classic A&A).

I played once a game with Air Search Communication in which planes have to roll “1” or “2” to detect a subs group.
And it needed only 1 success roll amongst them all to let all planes make a regular attack on subs: Fg A3 and StB A4.
There was also an Anti-Sub Mission made by DD and Destroyer escort, in which each have to roll “1” or “2” to detect a subs group and pin it. But only the successful DD or DE unit in the previous phase can get a chance to destroy a sub at A@2.

So this HR clearly made the difference between looking for subs with planes or with warships (DD/DE).
Planes were much more successful as long as you bring more than just one unit in the ASCom.
It brings a much more historical feel.

But still then, subs have a better chance to survive than when you bring 1-2DD+ a lot of planes in a SZ if you follow OOB rules,
you can clear in a single round all subs with few loss.

[crusaderiv]

But still then, subs have a better chance to survive than when you bring 1-2DD+ a lot of planes in a SZ if you follow OOB rules,

Yes but you cannot make both.
If airplane make air search patrol, Destroyer cannot make a sub patrol mission before or after.
Destroyer or plane not both in the same turn…