Alternate Air combat in OOB G40 with 2 planes Carrier, 1942.1 and 1942.2


  • 2017 2016

    Here is my latest and more develop way of playing a more regular A&A game in which Carrier keeps their usual value and 2 planes capacity.
    Here, my main goal is to be nearer as possible of OOB value but allowing an Air-to-Air phase and a regular combat in which Fighters can have a specific part.

    It was partly develop here:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32328.msg1216162#msg1216162

    Fg A3D3C9, on “1” rolled destroyed 1 enemy’s plane, if any still present.
    TcB A3-4D4C10

    1- When paired 1:1 with Fg, or Tank, TcB get A4.
    2- Air supremacy: when no enemy’s plane and 1 friendly Fg is present then all TcBs get A4.

    3-Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs Air Base and Naval Base.

    StB A4D1M6C12, as OOB. Except in the dogfight phase.


    Dogfight phase prior to the main battle:

    I would use in the same way as the SBR escort and intercept rules of G40, not so different from OOB, instead of proceeding to SBR, it will proceed to regular combat:

    Air-to-Air phase (Dogfight):
    Fg,TcB, attacking StB , but not defending StB, inside A-to-A phase roll A/D @1. Remove casualties.
    Defending fighters then roll a second cycle inside the phase. Remove casualties.
    Then, all attacking Fgs can roll for a second cycle. Remove casualties.
    Proceed to SBR over IC, NB or AB / (or proceed to regular combat).
    AAA fires against StB and TcB
    Then roll damage as OOB.


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    Here is my latest and more develop way of playing a more regular A&A game in which Carrier keeps their usual value and 2 planes capacity.
    Here the main goal is to be nearer as possible of OOB value but allowing an Air-to-Air phase and a regular combat in which Fighters can have a specific part.

    It was partly develop here:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32328.msg1216162#msg1216162

    Fg A3D3C9, on “1” rolled destroyed 1 plane, if any still present.
    TcB A3-4D4C10

    1- When paired with Fg, or Tank, TcB get A4.
    2- Air supremacy: when no enemy’s plane and 1 friendly Fg is present then all TcBs get A4.


    Dogfight phase prior to the main battle:

    I would use in the same way as the SBR escort and intercept rules of G40, not so different from OOB, instead of proceeding to SBR, it will proceed to regular combat:

    Air-to-Air phase (Dogfight):
    Fg,TcB, attacking StB, but not defending StB, inside A-to-A phase roll A/D @1. Remove casualties.
    Defending fighters then roll a second cycle inside the phase. Remove casualties.
    Then, all attacking Fgs can roll for a second cycle. Remove casualties.
    Proceed to SBR over IC, NB or AB / (or proceed to regular combat).
    AAA fires against StB and TcB
    Then roll damage as OOB.

    Fighters and TacBombers together keep the same number of points vs OOB.
    OOB FgA3D4= 7 pts + TcB A3-4D3 = 6-7 points. Sum: 13-14 pts
    HR Fg A3D3= 6 pts + TcB A3-4D4= 7-8 points. Sum 13-14 pts.
    So it doesn’t affect the full Carrier operation combat values. Keeping balance.
    From A6D6 (2 Fgs) to A6D8 (2 TcBs), in between A7D7 (1 Fg+1TcB).

    The lower cost of both -1 for Fg and -1 for TcB, sum 2 IPCs (a 10% cost redux) is to compensate for the additional lost amongst planes this system imply.

    Fg A3D3C9 (vs TcBA3-4D4C10) is not as strong in comparison (but have the same A/D value of a Tank) and a little less valuable against ground units in regular combat but there is some interesting features which can make it better, as an Air superiority unit.

    TcBs need at least one Fg to get A1 Air Supremacy bonus, or A1 pairing bonus.
    The Fg plays a role of escorting plane for the TcBs during regular combat.

    Fg have the advantage of being slightly cheaper and clearly better during the Air-to-Air phase.
    Fg in Off or Def can roll up to twice @1 while the TacB only rolls once, in this HR.
    In addition, Fg is needed to intercept any incoming SBR planes and protect IC/NB/AB, since no TcB or StB are allowed to do interception mission.

    In addition, even behind a large stack of ground units, a Fg can still destroy a TcB with the special “1” roll.


    Is the Air-to-air phase too much a killer for planes?
    Does it increase the suspense at the beginning of the battle?
    Do you think it is still balance or not?


  • 2017 2016

    Here is the principles I tried to preserved as much as possible:
    @Uncrustable:

    But it gives each air unit a very distinctive role in the game, each are important…

    1-Fighters are needed to protect friendly bombers from enemy air (fodder/escort SBR) and friendly facilities from SBR (intercept SBR).
    -Fighters are also needed to vie for air dominance. (Air supremacy bonus for Tacs and taking out enemy air).

    2-Tactical bombers are the meat of the air so to speak, they need Fighters (protection + air Supremacy bonus), but they are the best at destroying enemy units.

    3-Strategic bombers are long range heavy hitters on offense, and can SBR. But they need both fighters … to perform efficiently. Next to worthless on defense.

    There is much historical realism here.

    In my last post about the HR TcB and Fg, I tried somehow to respond to this post:

    @knp7765:

    @toblerone77:

    @knp7765:

    @toblerone77:

    Tactical bombers could be much, much, better. Of course this usually means house ruling for those with the inclination. Just IMO people get fighter-bomber confused with tactical bomber and additionally confuse more modern connotations with those of WWII. However with our friends at HBG we may alas have the ability to remedy this. 😉

    Okay, but in our game, wouldn’t fighter-bombers pretty much be considered tactical bombers? I mean, if you get really in depth and start giving units special values and abilities or if you are playing something like A&A miniatures, then yeah I could see the difference. But in our more strategic level games, it seems to me like they would be pretty much the same plane.
    Of course, there are planes like the Mustang, which excelled at both fighter vs. fighter dogfights and wrecking ground targets.
    So what are we talking here? A plane that has the strong defense of a fighter (4) yet can also pair with tanks on attack (4).

    That’s true. But something like the Stuka, SBD etc. are more dedicated dive bombers than say a Thunderbolt is. I’ve seen some suggestions before of making tacs have nearly or better defensively than a fighter. Personally I don’t care.

    I could not agree with that at all. If you made tacs defense as good or better than a fighter, then there would be no reason to buy fighters anymore except for spending 1 IPC less. Also, I think it would make tacs way overpowered.
    It’s just fine the way it is. If you want good defense, then you buy fighters. If you are planning more offense, you buy tacs.

    I hope you see Knp, how it is possible to appreciate TcB and Fg with these different combat values.

    Fighters still having a defense and escort role against enemy’s planes even with A3D3 while keeping the real offensive and (even defensive) value against ground and warships of Tactical Bomber A3-4D4.
    So this analysis is still true here:

    If you want good defense, then you buy fighters. If you are planning more offense, you buy tacs.

    I never intended to introduce fighter-bombers, but the values attributed to TcB can be better understand if this historical weapon was included in this HR TcB unit.

    But I acknowledge this precious distinction, quoted below, between a TcB and a Fighter-bomber.
    All fighters can intercept and cannot do a Tactical Bombing Raid.

    But, with this actual Air combat HR, it can be possible to create this special Hybrid units with both capacities:

    Fighter-Bomber (P51-Mustang) as a Fg-TcB A3-4D4M5C12
    in Air-to-Air it is treated as a Fg, getting to roll up to twice @1 if not destroyed on the first cycle,
    destroy a plane on “1” roll during regular combat,
    and, in regular combat can be paired to another TcB or Fg-TcB and serve as a Fg,
    or paired to Fg or Fg-TcB to be treated as a TcB,
    while during SBR, it can do an interception as any Fg,
    and can choose between escorting mission (rolling twice @1 as Fg)
    or just once 1@1 as a TcB going TBR against AB or NB.

    @ItIsILeClerc:

    I think a fighter-bomber is critically different from tacs in this A&A game.
    Correct me if I’m wrong but I think in A&A, a ftr-bmr would be able to intercept raids (tac cannot), bomb facilities or escort bombers on a raid (not both escorting and bombing at the same time of course).

    In a gamey way a tac can ‘escort’, by sending them with other raiding planes but that would make them susceptible to AAA-fire. The way I see it, they must attack a facility if sent into an area.
    I could not find it anywhere in the rules so this looks like a good place to ask my question:

    can a tac be sent raiding a territory if there are no targets left that it can damage?? For example: London. Both the AB and the NB are maxed out and only the IC is left undamaged. GE sends in their 3STR for a raid, accompanied by 5FTR. However, GB has 10FTR ready to intercept so GE also sends 5tac to increase its airpower over GB. After the 1 round dogfight, the tac can only attack the already maxed out NB and AB and must do so to have the AAA fire upon them, even though they cannot damage those facilities anymore. That is how we play it, but is that the way its supposed to be?!


  • 2017 2016

    OPTIONAL for Strategic Bomber in Air-to-Air combat

    Here is two options for StB attack value during Air-to-Air combat:
    A- Simpler (but contrary to OOB G40 SBR): no attack nor defending factor for StBs (A0D0).
    B- Considering that each StB A1D0, in this phase, is like 1 single @1 AA gun roll but regular, see explanation below: 1A@1 for each StB or intercepting Fg, whichever is less.

    @Razor:

    I think only fighters can roll dice in the Dogfight phase, both because of playability and historical issues. You can do the same in dogfight, buy nothing but Bombers, and they roll a A1 like twenty times and kill all intercepting fighters. This is gamey, and not historical correct either. Real life… heavy Bombers was slaughtered when on a mission alone, even if they had a machine gun in front and rear. That’s why it was so important to develop long range escort fighters. If the B 17 bomber had been strong in dogfights, the P51 Mustang would never have been made. If all units had the same abilities it would not be fun.

    There is a way to treat StBs in dogfight capacity so even a swarm of StBs will not destroy all the defending Fighters.

    Example #1: 6 StBs A1 attacking a single Fg D1, but get 2 cycles in the phase.
    Normally, StBs will get 6 rolls @1 while the Fg get 1 @1, and if not destroyed can roll a second time (According to the HR above).

    You can consider the StBs attack like a 1 shot AAA without preemptive strike, instead of 3.
    So, no matter the number of incoming StBs, this Fg unit will just suffer a single roll @1.
    StB A4D1M6C12, in dogfight, get 1 Attack roll @1 up to the number of friendly StBs or enemy’s planes, whichever is less.

    Example #2, 2 StBs attacks 3 Fgs, then all StBs can have 2 rolls @1 to destroy up to two fighters out of the three.
    Example #3, 4 StBs attacks 2 Fgs, then all StBs can have 2 rolls @1 to destroy up to two fighters, even if there is 4 StBs.

    I rationalize it that way:
    StBs are a kind of machine guns Platform (a kind of AA) against Fgs that are flying around them and much nearer than ground AA gun.
    Even if there is more enemy fighters around them, the machine guns doesn’t double magically.
    So it is like an Air-to-Air AA situation instead of a ground to air AA situation.

    In addition, StBs are not actively chasing Fgs.
    Each fighter unit can not go after all incoming StBs (if Fgs are overwhelmed by sheer number, as example #1) and neither StBs chasing Fgs during a raid (it is not their objective), so StBs will pursue their mission even if they never see enemy’s plane!

    So, in essence, it is a 1:1 situation, (otherwise Fgs should be treat as an air AAA able to attack more than 1 unit, for instance up to three, if like an AAA).
    That’s why, IMO, each intercepting Fg, against StBs, get up to 1 single bad luck to be shot down at 1/6 odds max and up to 1 StB each can roll, which ever the less.


    As a side note about historical SBR, here is a long documentary (1h28 min.) on the American 8th Air Force’s bloody battle to defeat the German Luftwaffe in the months leading up to D-Day.
    WWII In HD: The Air War
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR4zaKfAnCc


    OPTIONAL for a lesser destructive SBR: 2 hits StB during Air-to-Air SBR phase

    I was looking for a middle way to reduce the odds of loosing too many bombers if compared to OOB G40 rule for escort that was really protecting StrB behind escorting Fgs.

    What is introduced here, is an incentive way for the attacker to choose willingly to take damage on an StB, which means a way to destroy an StB even behind a screen of escort Fgs.

    How to make a strategic bombing raid:

    1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory.

    2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.

    3. All planes rolls attack and defense 1@1 (as G40 OOB), except StB, see option A or B.
    Option A: Strategical bomber @0

    Option B: strategical bomber @1 up to 1/StB or 1/Fg interceptor, which ever is less.
    Basically, each StB works like 1 single AA shot @1.
    You cannot have more shot than the number of StB or Fg. So the max is 1 shot per Fg.

    Then remove casualties. But taking into account this special feature for StB:
    In this option, each StB can take 2 hits in SBR air combat phase before the AA gun phase.

    4. All intercepting Fg roll a second time. Removed casualties.

    5. All escorting Fgs roll a second time. Removed casualties.

    StrBomber in the air combat of an SBR, can take a hit before being destroyed.
    But if it receives this hit, the StrB cannot do any damage on IC
    Any damaged StrB are destroyed at the end of this SBRaid

    After the air combat round, any damaged StrB can still be submit to AAA fire and be taken as casualties.
    This means that a damaged StB can received another hit, in place of another StB doing the same mission over the same IC.

    As OOB,
    6.  Surviving ESCORTING and INTERCEPTING FIGHTERS withdraw.

    7. SURVIVING STR BOMBERS (and damaged ones) will face AAA fire from the defending territory’s IC.

    StrB (and TcB going against NB and AB) must endure AAA fire before bombing IC (or NB & AB) as usual.

    AAA fires 1 dice against each StrB and TacB.
    For each “1” it gets a hit and owner’s choose casualties.

    8. Removed the CASUALTIES from the IC’s AA guns:
    If it is a TcB, then it is destroyed,

    if it is an undamaged StB, then it is also destroyed.

    As said above, any damaged StB cannot make any bombing drop on IC (or NB & AB), but can be taken as casualty instead of any other StB or TcB.


    Example:
    3 StBs can endure 2 hits from interceptors on the same StB without destroying the other two StB and both can bomb IC.

    If there was two escorting fighters, the attacking player have to choose between destroying
    a) 2 Fgs,
    b) destroying 1 Fg and damaging 1 StB or
    c) destroying 1 StB.
    During the AAA phase, any “1” rolled destroy a StB but let’s suppose AAA got 1 hit:
    net result for…
    a) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 2 Fgs and 1 StB
    b) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 1 Fg and 1 StB
    c) 1 StB can bombard IC, lost 2 StBs.

    Let’s suppose there was no hit from IC’s AA:
    a) 3 StB bombard IC, lost 2 Fgs
    b) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 1 Fg and 1 StB
    c) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost no Fg and 1 StB

    Do you see the challenge of the attacker when choosing hits during this air combat phase before SBR?


    9. BOMBING DAMAGE:
    Thus any undamaged StB not hit by AAA can bomb the IC:
    at 1D6+2 (1940) or 1D6 (1942)

    Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB, AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.

    To promote more Air battle with interceptors, when a SBR or TcB get a free ride without interceptors, the bombing damage get fiercer:

    2D6 keep the better one and add +2. (As if it was a heavy bomber).
    If playing 1942.1/1942.2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
    For Tactical Bomber this could be 1D6+2 against NB/AB (instead of OOB G40 1D6).
    I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.

    7. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.


  • 2017 2016

    OPTIONAL HR for Spring 1942 and 1942.2

    @Razor:

    I think only fighters can roll dice in the Dogfight phase, both because of playability and historical issues. You can do the same in dogfight, buy nothing but Bombers, and they roll a A1 like twenty times and kill all intercepting fighters. This is gamey, and not historical correct either. Real life… heavy Bombers was slaughtered when on a mission alone, even if they had a machine gun in front and rear. That’s why it was so important to develop long range escort fighters. If the B 17 bomber had been strong in dogfights, the P51 Mustang would never have been made. If all units had the same abilities it would not be fun.

    This point could be very true for 1942.1 and 1942.2 since there is far less planes on the board at the beginning of the game.

    Without TcBs,
    Fg can be simply OOB, adding this little “1” and with a dogfight phase before regular combat.
    A3D4M4C10, 1 hit, on “1” rolled destroyed 1 plane, if any still present.


    Dogfight phase prior to the main battle:

    I would use the SBR escort and interception rule of G40 as a basis, not so different from OOB, then proceed to regular combat:

    Air-to-Air phase (Dogfight):
    Fgs only, inside A-to-A phase get to roll A/D @1.
    First, Defending fighters roll. Remove casualties.
    Then, all attacking Fgs can roll . Remove casualties.
    Proceed to regular combat.


    This way their won’t be too much casualties amongst planes and dogfight phase still be an interesting additional ingredients.

    In the absence of TcB unit, here is an incentive to get Air Supremacy.

    Optionnal:
    Fighter-bombers Air Supremacy
    Air Supremacy: when no enemy’s plane and 1 friendly Fg unit is present then all other friendly Fgs get A4.


  • 2017 2016

    OPTIONAL HR with Tactical Bomber units in Spring 1942 and 1942.2

    @Razor:

    I think only fighters can roll dice in the Dogfight phase, both because of playability and historical issues. You can do the same in dogfight, buy nothing but Bombers, and they roll a A1 like twenty times and kill all intercepting fighters. This is gamey, and not historical correct either. Real life… heavy Bombers was slaughtered when on a mission alone, even if they had a machine gun in front and rear. That’s why it was so important to develop long range escort fighters. If the B 17 bomber had been strong in dogfights, the P51 Mustang would never have been made. If all units had the same abilities it would not be fun.

    This point could be very true for 1942.1 and 1942.2 since there is far less planes on the board at the beginning of the game and adding or changing some Fg units into TcB units will not make a lot of them available everywhere they need to be paired somehow to get an Air bonus. In addition, this rule can generates an increasing attrition rate amongst planes vs OOB. By keeping the attacking and defending capacity during A-to-A combat to Fgs only, I hope to keep this rate lower than G40.

    Keep the G40 HR as a basis, but a slightly different TcB capacities:
    Fg A3D3C9, on “1” rolled destroyed 1 enemy’s plane, if any still present.
    TcB A3-4D4C10

    1- When paired 1:1 with Fg, TcB get A4.
    2- Air supremacy: when no enemy’s plane, then all TcBs get A4.

    StB A4D1M6C12, as OOB.


    Dogfight phase prior to the main battle:

    As a dogfight rules, I would use this; it will then proceed to regular combat:

    Air-to-Air phase (Dogfight):
    Only Fgs but no TcB or StB, inside A-to-A phase can roll A/D @1.
    Defending fighters roll. Remove casualties.
    Then, all attacking Fgs can roll . Remove casualties.
    Proceed to regular combat.


    Strategic Bombing Raid, escort and interception HR with TcBs

    During SBR as such, each TcB and StB get 1 A@1 regular against intercepting Fgs.

    SBR escort and interception phase:
    Fg,TcB and attacking StB roll A/D @1. Remove casualties.
    Defending fighters then roll a second cycle inside the SBR interception phase. Remove casualties.
    Then, all attacking Fgs can roll for a second cycle. Remove casualties.
    Proceed to SBR over IC.

    AAA fires against StBs but not TcBs (since they cannot TcBR an IC, unless your HRs something for it).
    Then roll damage as OOB.


    This way, I hope their won’t be too much casualties amongst planes and dogfight phase still be interesting, even with TcBs taking part of this phase along with StBs as A0D0 unit.


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    Once this said, I think TacB is the newest (except for AAA guns) unit introduced and can have a better place and much more historical feel in relation to SBR escort and intercept (air vs air combat) rules, and vs regular combat: ground and naval.
    (As for now, I’m just thinking that TacBs should have a combat value against Subs (not Fighters), even without DDs, they represent Dive and Torpedos bombers after all.)

    I was curious to look what was the historical background and basis of this assumption about TacB against Fg vs Subs.
    I was surprised that my intuitive thinking have some truth behind:
    I just discovered that the Fighter F4F Wildcat was part of Antisubmarine Warfare and was able to sink 21 Submarines U-boats but never by itself. All of them were credited to another aircraft also.

    Service in the Atlantic Ocean

    Best known for their contributions in the Pacific, the Wildcats and Martlets also gave reputable service in the Atlantic. This usually took the form of operating from an escort carrier attached to a convoy or a hunter-killer group. These Wildcats were responsible for intercepting German bombers and, in conjunction with other types, finding and attacking U-boats. The six-gun armaments of the F4F-4, Martlet II, and Martlet IV were particularly effective in suppressing the anti-aircraft guns of the U-boats so that larger, slower bombers could more safely attack with depth bombs or homing torpedoes. The threat of strafing by a Wildcat would often persuade a U-boat to submerge, reducing the chance of catching a convoy. Additionally, the Wildcats could summon bombers and surface escorts to engage U-boats. Known to be rugged and forgiving, the Wildcat’s performance limitations were not a significant handicap in the Atlantic, where there were no enemy fighters to contend with.

    U-boats lost to Wildcat/Martlet aircraft

    (When fighting U-boat Wildcat normally shielded her larger sister the Avenger while the latter dropped depth charges or acoustic torpedoes. Both planes were given credit in such cases.)

    http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/wildcat.htm

    On the contrary, TBF Avenger were clearly part of Submarine killing:

    Service in the Atlantic Ocean

    In the Atlantic, the Avenger was the obvious choice for use aboard British and American escort carriers in screening convoys and hunting down U-boats. Avengers would sight surfaced U-boats, and swoop down on them in a glide bombing approach, releasing multiple 250-pound, 325-pound, or (most often) 500-pound depth bombs. If the U-boat put up accurate flak, the Avenger pilot might choose to circle out of range wait for other aircraft to assist. Grumman Wildcat fighters, with either four or six heavy machine guns, were often effective at subduing the U-boat’s flak battery so that the Avengers could more safely make their attacks. Later the Avenger’s arsenal included rockets for use on surfaced U-boats and, after mid-1943, a super-secret anti-submarine homing torpedo known as the Mark 24 Fido (also called Zombie). Various versions of the Avenger were fitted with radar for finding submarines or surface ships, with sonobuoys to track submerged submarines, and with flares and searchlights for illuminating potential targets at night. Avengers were known to carry combinations of these devices, such as two 500-pound depth bombs, one Fido, radar, flares, and sonobuoys.

    American escort carrier air groups sank, or assisted in sinking, 35 submarines in the Atlantic. Most, perhaps all, of these kills must have been made by Avengers. To this total must be added the achievements of British Avengers. Additionally, Avengers flew anti-submarine patrols from land bases, and laid mines.

    http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/avenger.htm

    This means to me that, from an historical POV, against submarine unit, a TacB unit should be better over the Fg unit.
    So I think there is room to improve the historical representation of TcB and Fg units in A&A G40.


    Maybe TacBomber unit should have (along with StBs) a specific capacity against Submarine unit.
    Or
    While giving Fgs an Anti-aircraft capacity, at the same time, making them unable to destroy Submarine unit.
    This could better reenact somehow the historical difference amongst these 2 G40 sculpts and sharpen the role of this new TcB unit, given each a more clearer identity, even with a strategical game level such as A&A G40.


    As a side note, here someone talking from first hand:

    Here is a canadian !!!  :evil: CVL HMCS Magnificent (a Majestic-class CVL-21) Launch in nov. 1944 but only commissionned 1948.
    25 knots, 12 000 nmiles, 37 planes on board.
    Around 4min. 40s. the captain of this Light Carrier unit says:
    He had 2 types of planes on board:
    anti-submarines aircrafts ASW (Avengers) and
    fighters aircrafts against planes to protect the carrier.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zvnz06-MRc

    According to what have been said above, I would introduce this historical oriented HR for Fg:

    OPTIONAL RULE for ASW for Fg and TcB

    The Fg will be a more Anti-aircraft unit oriented with these combat capacities :
    Fg A3D3C9, on “1” rolled destroyed 1 plane, if any still present. Cannot hit Sub units.

    Only TcB and StB units (any number) can hit submarine units when paired to at least 1 destroyer unit.

    So, with this Optional House Rule, Fg and Submarine units becomes immune against each other.


  • 2017 2016

    Do you think this last HR makes Carriers too much vulnerable against Subs if they put 1 Fg and 1 TcB on board?

    Does this cutting in half the defensive power of Carriers against Subs should be balance by a no restriction against Subs for Tactical Bombers?

    TcB A3-4D4M4C10 can hit Subs anytime by themselves. No need of Destroyers.

    But StB units (any number) can only hit submarine units when paired to at least 1 destroyer unit.

    Who knows? Some ideas to judge this situation?

    Don’t you think it could help simplify the Rules on the subs vs aircrafts?

    Because, there is only StBs needing DDs on offence which can be part of any naval combat with Subs ?


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    Do you think this last HR makes Carriers too much vulnerable against Subs if they put 1 Fg and 1 TcB on board?

    Does this cutting in half the defensive power of Carriers against Subs should be balance by a no restriction against Subs for Tactical Bombers?

    TcB A3-4D4M4C10 can hit Subs anytime by themselves. No need of Destroyers.

    But StB units (any number) can only hit submarine units when paired to at least 1 destroyer unit.

    Who knows? Some ideas to judge this situation?

    Don’t you think it could help simplify the Rules on the subs vs aircrafts?

    Because, there is only StBs needing DDs on offence which can be part of any naval combat with Subs ?

    Actually, this line of thinking pushed me further away.

    Once fighters can no more hit any Subs, I thought why not simply allows both TcB and StB to hit subs without the need of destroyers.
    But, at the same time, keeping all the actual stuff on DD and subs.
    That would meant that any type of bombers attacking subs only in a given SZ should not be able to do any harm to them since subs keep their Surprise phase and can submerge prior to the regular combat phase. In other terms, DDs will still be needed on many circumstances to get a chance to hit subs.

    So with Fg unable to hit them and the Subs submerge still very efficient, giving Bombers the ability to hit subs will not doom them.

    That’s how I see things, am I under a false impression?
    Do you think it is playable?
    Because, it could be much simpler to play subs vs planes than the actual OOB.
    Hope you can leave a comment.
    Thanks.


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I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

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