Axis Navy

[icemanistheking]

Do you think it would be unbalanced to give Italy another battleship or cruiser starting out, something to ensure the navy can survive past the first couple turns without fleeing the area?

My brother and I are trying to work out our perceived balance issues (and some noted by users on these forums in the past), but we have only played two games of E40, so I think we both still have a ways to go before we really have the dynamic of the game down.

It just seems the Allied navy starts out with a huge advantage, save for Germany’s U-boats (which can be dealt with fairly quickly), and with Germany’s first few turns pretty much sealed by fate (with being forced to first attack France and then Russia), they don’t seem to have the initial resources to focus any IPCs on more naval units to possibly pose a challenge to Allied transport convoys.

However, since my brother has been focusing pretty much all IPC on building an emergency air force (he is Axis) with Germany, I have had a hell of a time making landfall with transports.

Anyway, this is as much observation as question, but responses would be much appreciated. Thanks

[Rhey]

do you play OOB or alpha rules? Because in the OOB version it is unbalanced. But they fixed it in the alpha 3.9 rules.

[Witt]

I think they have probably got Italian fleet right, but it most games the  better part is lost before it can be used. Most German players buy fleet on G1 and are able to neutralise England for a while. The US player then either chooses to help England or finish off Italy. It is not usual for Germany  to rebuild their fleet as all their efforts are on the subjugation of Russia. Replacing lost sub in convoy box 125 is a must though. Since Alpha 3.9 I have been unable to recreate earlier Italian conquests of Africa, sadly!

[guy]

a UK1 taranto raid is the only real way that italy can get REALLY screwed up, so…

try hitting 110 with just enough to **trick **him into a scramble.  without those extra air units off UK taranto gets riskier and riskier…

maybe 1 sub and like 3 fig, 3 tacs

yes you will lose air, but italy messing up the med is worth it****

[Commando Brado]

If you put 1 German fighter in S. Italy on Turn 1, it makes Taranto nearly impossible unless the UK gets really good dicing and the Italian gets really bad dicing. It makes Taranto unpalatable by the UK player, unless you want to lose your fleet in the Med on Turn 1. My recommendation is don’t scramble in SZ110 and move your fleet in the Med down below Egypt to fight another day…

[Commando Brado]

Buy 2 Trans and 1 AC w/the Germans. Depending on what the UK does, buy either 1 FTR or 1 Trans, 1 Inf w/Italy.

[ghr2]

@Commando:

If you put 1 German fighter in S. Italy on Turn 1, it makes Taranto nearly impossible unless the UK gets really good dicing and the Italian gets really bad dicing. It makes Taranto unpalatable by the UK player, unless you want to lose your fleet in the Med on Turn 1. My recommendation is don’t scramble in SZ110 and move your fleet in the Med down below Egypt to fight another day…

Well, if UK wants to kill 97, he can, there is not much axis can do to stop it aside from forcing UK to over commit to it and leave England vulnerable to sealion.

[Commando Brado]

Sure. Go ahead and attack SZ97 w/the UK units. In Alpha 2, this means the UK attacks w/1 DD, 1 CC, 1 AC, 2 FTR’s, 1 Tac vs. 2 FTR’s, 1 BB, 1 CC. Problem is, if the UK AC takes a hit the surviving planes have no place to land. So they die. If you don’t bring the AC, then it’s a 50/50 battle. You might survive w/1 Tac or FTR left. Next turn, Germans kill the remaining fleet for the Italians, then the Med is open to the Italians and and UK Europe has virtually no navy left. If the Germans put 2 FTR’s in the S. Italy, instead of 1 FTR and the UK brings the AC, then it’s a 50/50 battle w/the UK. But again, the UK loses it’s airforce in the Med. If UK doesn’t bring the AC, then it’s a 84% chance win in favor of the Italians. They lose 1 Italian cruiser and 2 German FTR’s and Italy is even more powerful.

In Alpha 3, this is even more in favor of the Italians b/cuz they start w/2 FTR’s in S. Italy, instead of one and there’s only 1 Italian Trans in SZ97, not two. So, Italy loses less.

In my opinion, it’s better for the Brit fleet to retreat to SZ81, keep the Med strong and live to fight another day where you have better odds. If I’m playing the Axis, I would love for the Brits to Taranto, makes for a stronger Italy. Italy can more easily build their units back and get them to the front than the UK can. Especially if the German player is doing their job and economically taking out UK Europe.

[Make_It_Round]

Yes, but the only reason to have isolated units strategically placed in distant areas of the board is to make opportunistic strikes exactly like Taranto. The placement value of the UK navy off Egypt only counts for something if you use it.

If you let the three Italian fleets combine, there’s just no way that Britain can realistically hope to give challenge in the Med (again, assuming that Germany is doing its job) until round 7 or 8, after the US has cleaned house for them. So the alternatives, as I see them, are Taranto or medium-term irrelevance…

I’d rather cripple a small nation early game (Italy) than pester a larger nation mid-game (Japan) with my evacuated carrier and cruiser. But that’s just me.

To answer the initial question, I do find that every game of 3.9 I’ve played so far ends up with the Italians playing rather as they did historically… which is to say, abysmally. Could they use a little boost to make them more interesting to play? Maybe, but not if it warped the game to the point that Italy is running amok again, and making the North African game a sham.

I think the set-up is fine as it is, because the onus is now really on the German player to help out Italy considerably, which I like because it captures a lot of historical flavor as well as promoting clever teamwork. If Italy is going to be viable, Germany needs to chuck in air, sea, and land units whenever possible to the Med… the Egypt NO begins to make more sense in this case.

[Witt]

I agree, UK must do Taranto even if he loses his fleet. I think it more crippling to Italy than UK. Reduced to 1 transport Italy cannot hope to salvage anything in Africa, especially if UK built an Egypt IC on UK1. I have been on the receiving end of a total UK Med strategy(5 Air) and been unable to recover.
I countered with a 50/50 Sealion on G3 and was unlucky, but am not sure if even success and a 28IPC steal would have saved me in the long run.
As UK cannot live in fear of invasion, must be aggressive and play offensively.

[ghr2]

@Commando:

Sure. Go ahead and attack SZ97 w/the UK units. In Alpha 2, this means the UK attacks w/1 DD, 1 CC, 1 AC, 2 FTR’s, 1 Tac vs. 2 FTR’s, 1 BB, 1 CC. Problem is, if the UK AC takes a hit the surviving planes have no place to land. So they die. If you don’t bring the AC, then it’s a 50/50 battle. You might survive w/1 Tac or FTR left. Next turn, Germans kill the remaining fleet for the Italians, then the Med is open to the Italians and and UK Europe has virtually no navy left. If the Germans put 2 FTR’s in the S. Italy, instead of 1 FTR and the UK brings the AC, then it’s a 50/50 battle w/the UK. But again, the UK loses it’s airforce in the Med. If UK doesn’t bring the AC, then it’s a 84% chance win in favor of the Italians. They lose 1 Italian cruiser and 2 German FTR’s and Italy is even more powerful.

In Alpha 3, this is even more in favor of the Italians b/cuz they start w/2 FTR’s in S. Italy, instead of one and there’s only 1 Italian Trans in SZ97, not two. So, Italy loses less.

In my opinion, it’s better for the Brit fleet to retreat to SZ81, keep the Med strong and live to fight another day where you have better odds. If I’m playing the Axis, I would love for the Brits to Taranto, makes for a stronger Italy. Italy can more easily build their units back and get them to the front than the UK can. Especially if the German player is doing their job and economically taking out UK Europe.

Uk can dedicate 1 carrier, 1 cru, 1 dd, 1 fig, 1 tac, and 1 strat without having to land on carrier 84% odds to win if no german support, and bring another 2 figs down to carrier from england if germany reinforces southern, 1 extra uk fig is 81% and 2 is 94%, so unless uk gets heavy diced, the only thing keeping them from doing taranto is a sealion threat.

[Commando Brado]

@ghr2:

@Commando:

Sure. Go ahead and attack SZ97 w/the UK units. In Alpha 2, this means the UK attacks w/1 DD, 1 CC, 1 AC, 2 FTR’s, 1 Tac vs. 2 FTR’s, 1 BB, 1 CC. Problem is, if the UK AC takes a hit the surviving planes have no place to land. So they die. If you don’t bring the AC, then it’s a 50/50 battle. You might survive w/1 Tac or FTR left. Next turn, Germans kill the remaining fleet for the Italians, then the Med is open to the Italians and and UK Europe has virtually no navy left. If the Germans put 2 FTR’s in the S. Italy, instead of 1 FTR and the UK brings the AC, then it’s a 50/50 battle w/the UK. But again, the UK loses it’s airforce in the Med. If UK doesn’t bring the AC, then it’s a 84% chance win in favor of the Italians. They lose 1 Italian cruiser and 2 German FTR’s and Italy is even more powerful.

In Alpha 3, this is even more in favor of the Italians b/cuz they start w/2 FTR’s in S. Italy, instead of one and there’s only 1 Italian Trans in SZ97, not two. So, Italy loses less.

In my opinion, it’s better for the Brit fleet to retreat to SZ81, keep the Med strong and live to fight another day where you have better odds. If I’m playing the Axis, I would love for the Brits to Taranto, makes for a stronger Italy. Italy can more easily build their units back and get them to the front than the UK can. Especially if the German player is doing their job and economically taking out UK Europe.

Uk can dedicate 1 carrier, 1 cru, 1 dd, 1 fig, 1 tac, and 1 strat without having to land on carrier 84% odds to win if no german support, and bring another 2 figs down to carrier from england if germany reinforces southern, 1 extra uk fig is 81% and 2 is 94%, so unless uk gets heavy diced, the only thing keeping them from doing taranto is a sealion threat.

Your first scenario w/1 AC, 1 CC, 1 DD, 1 FTR, 1 Tac vs. 3 FTR’s, 1 BB, 1 CC is 53% chance the Brits win, which is basically a 50/50 battle. Not 84%. Not sure where you’re calculating your odds but I’ll provide the link…

http://www.dskelly.com/misc/aa/aasim.html

If you max pressure Taranto(3 FTR’s, 1 Tac, 1 SBR, 1 AC, 1 DD, 1 CC), you get a win % of 94% but pretty much finish the battle w/2 FTR’s, 1 Tac, 1 SBR left. I counter w/the Italians by attacking w/2 Inf, 2 Art, 1 CC, 1 SBR. I win 71% of the time, kill all the UK airforce, minus 2 FTR’s and only lose 2 Inf, 2 Art. Med completely empty of UK airforce and navy. Italy still has 2 Trans, 2 DD’s, 1 Sub and 1 CC left w/not having to worry about any pressure from the UK. Sounds like a good trade off to me. Then SeaLion becomes a much more viable option for Germany. In my opinion, better to keep the UK alive(i.e. have a strong UK Europe), keep your Brit fleet in the Med alive, so they can shuck units around and harass Italy. Then, you can build major units(i.e. tanks) out of S. Africa and still have IPC’s left to build navy out of SZ106. Sounds like there’s a lot of people out there who don’t know how to play Italy.

[Commando Brado]

@Make_It_Round:

Yes, but the only reason to have isolated units strategically placed in distant areas of the board is to make opportunistic strikes exactly like Taranto. The placement value of the UK navy off Egypt only counts for something if you use it.

If you let the three Italian fleets combine, there’s just no way that Britain can realistically hope to give challenge in the Med (again, assuming that Germany is doing its job) until round 7 or 8, after the US has cleaned house for them. So the alternatives, as I see them, are Taranto or medium-term irrelevance…

I’d rather cripple a small nation early game (Italy) than pester a larger nation mid-game (Japan) with my evacuated carrier and cruiser. But that’s just me.

To answer the initial question, I do find that every game of 3.9 I’ve played so far ends up with the Italians playing rather as they did historically… which is to say, abysmally. Could they use a little boost to make them more interesting to play? Maybe, but not if it warped the game to the point that Italy is running amok again, and making the North African game a sham.

I think the set-up is fine as it is, because the onus is now really on the German player to help out Italy considerably, which I like because it captures a lot of historical flavor as well as promoting clever teamwork. If Italy is going to be viable, Germany needs to chuck in air, sea, and land units whenever possible to the Med… the Egypt NO begins to make more sense in this case.

Sounds like you haven’t played against any good Italian players…

[ghr2]

It was 84% since u only have 2 figs not 3, i specifically said, no german support so its 1 cru 1 carrier 1 dd 1 tac 1 strat 1 fig vs 1 bb 1 cru and 2 fig, also, how do u get 2 inf 2 rtl when u only have 1 transport left sir?  unless a dd holds off a fig and a cru, i dont see your logic bud.

Also, I use the Battle calc in triple A

[ghr2]

@Commando:

@Make_It_Round:

Yes, but the only reason to have isolated units strategically placed in distant areas of the board is to make opportunistic strikes exactly like Taranto. The placement value of the UK navy off Egypt only counts for something if you use it.

If you let the three Italian fleets combine, there’s just no way that Britain can realistically hope to give challenge in the Med (again, assuming that Germany is doing its job) until round 7 or 8, after the US has cleaned house for them. So the alternatives, as I see them, are Taranto or medium-term irrelevance…

I’d rather cripple a small nation early game (Italy) than pester a larger nation mid-game (Japan) with my evacuated carrier and cruiser. But that’s just me.

To answer the initial question, I do find that every game of 3.9 I’ve played so far ends up with the Italians playing rather as they did historically… which is to say, abysmally. Could they use a little boost to make them more interesting to play? Maybe, but not if it warped the game to the point that Italy is running amok again, and making the North African game a sham.

I think the set-up is fine as it is, because the onus is now really on the German player to help out Italy considerably, which I like because it captures a lot of historical flavor as well as promoting clever teamwork. If Italy is going to be viable, Germany needs to chuck in air, sea, and land units whenever possible to the Med… the Egypt NO begins to make more sense in this case.

Sounds like you haven’t played against any good Italian players…

There is not much italy can do against a very aggressive UK without german support.

[Witt]

Agreed. Easy to say, “with German Support”. Germany wants to help, but after the fall of France needs to think of stage 2 of the war: Sealion(even a bluff) or Barbarossa. Only have 70 to spend on 2 and 50 on G3. Its units cannot be everywhere.
If UK has done a Taranto, Italy never recovers.
I would love to know how to play Italy better! Thought those who had in Alpha 3, had done because UK player had given up the Med and not hit 2 transports on UK1.

[guy]

i’ve been trying to come up with a realistic way for the nazis to help the italians without being locked into sealion gambits OR strict barbarossa

turn 1 build AC and 2 trannies into sz112

hit 91 with 2 subs, hit 110 with 3 fig, 3 tacs, and 2 bombers

hit 106 w/ 1 sub, NCM last sup to 112

hit france with all ground, send in two nazi fighters to s. italy

strafe yugo to setup for potential G2 barbarossa

only real poroblem i see is the all air attack on 110
if UK doesn’t scramble, sealion odds get hurt from air losses and taranto is still achievable.  if he does scramble, air losses increase, but taranto is removed from the table

guess i could move 1 sub from the 91 fight to 110

[Witt]

Hi Guy. My problem is I cannot not attack SZ111, which I think you are suggesting.I cannot leave UK any fleet uponwhich they can build. I have now played dropping 1 fighter on S Italy(attacked Yugo from Hungary). I also attack S France with 2 Mech and a Tk(paid off so far, but not my kind of odds). I do that because I want a German Naval base in the Med. if attack were to fail, would finish off with Italy, as I do not want French Toulon fleet joining Cairo  one. Still playing,  so work in progress at the moment.

[ghr2]

What i ment was, landing a fighter in southern italy.