Global 40: Vichy France = Pro-Axis Neutral; Co-Belligerent Italy = Pro-Allied

[Make_It_Round]

Thanks for the interesting case study, MacN…

However, the liberation of Rome would not change the pro-Allied status of the units in Tobruk in the example you cite.

(They would be lost forevermore to the Italians.)

The rules for the recapture of a capital are not affected by the new rules I propose regarding a capital falling.

[crusaderiv]

It’s only logical and should be apply in all A&A rules.
If Italy and his capital are conquer by the Allies, all Italian units must surrender wherever they are.

_1) For each territory and sea zone containing French pieces, roll a die.

(2) On a result of 1-3, the territory and units stay aligned with the Allies, as Free French.

(3) On a result of 4-6, the territory and units become pro-Axis neutrals, the Vichy French._

This rules seems like World at War from Xeno games. I agree for the ships but I don’t agree for the territory.
After falls of France all french territory must become Vichy. Allies must attack or influence Vichy territory to regain control ex-french colonial territory.

Also France surrender only if Paris, western and eastern (Or whatever the desingation) are conquered by Germany.

[MacNaughton]

@Make_It_Round:

Thanks for the interesting case study, MacN…

However, the liberation of Rome would not change the pro-Allied status of the units in Tobruk in the example you cite.

(They would be lost forevermore to the Italians.)

The rules for the recapture of a capital are not affected by the new rules I propose regarding a capital falling.

So if I lose Rome, and subsequently more territories due to them becoming pro-allied, the only way I can regain those territories is through military take-over. Correct? On that same note: if Germany or Japan conquers those pro-allied territories that used to be Italian after Rome has been liberated, do they become Italian as a liberated territory or do they go to the conquering nation?

[crusaderiv]

if Germany or Japan conquers those pro-allied territories that used to be Italian after Rome has been liberated, do they become Italian as a liberated territory or do they go to the conquering nation?

Go to conquering nation.

[Make_It_Round]

@crusaderiv:

if Germany or Japan conquers those pro-allied territories that used to be Italian after Rome has been liberated, do they become Italian as a liberated territory or do they go to the conquering nation?

Go to conquering nation.

Incorrect: under the rules, these territories would be restored to liberated Italy (just as Allied-controlled bits of the French empire come back under France’s control once Paris is liberated).

[crusaderiv]

Incorrect: under the rules, these territories would be restored to liberated Italy (just as Allied-controlled bits of the French empire come back under France’s

OK so the rule is incorrect…If Italy is liberated by Allies, fachist goverment falls and democratic goverment take place in Italy.
If Germany reconquer Italy, Germany should take control of Italy as a puppet state. 
There’s a difference between liberated and conquered. (Of course It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to make something historical).

[Make_It_Round]

@crusaderiv:

Incorrect: under the rules, these territories would be restored to liberated Italy (just as Allied-controlled bits of the French empire come back under France’s

OK so the rule is incorrect…If Italy is liberated by Allies, fachist goverment falls and democratic goverment take place in Italy.
If Germany reconquer Italy, Germany should take control of Italy as a puppet state. 
There’s a difference between liberated and conquered. (Of course It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to make something historical).

No, the rules are correct: your interpretation of them is not.

In game terms, Italy is not ‘liberated’ by the Allies, because Italy doesn’t start the game as an Allied power.

It is liberated by Germany, and like any liberated power, it reclaims its starting territories when its capital is liberated.

[crusaderiv]

No, the rules are correct: your interpretation of them is not.
In game terms, Italy is not ‘liberated’ by the Allies, because Italy doesn’t start the game as an Allied power.

I understand the point but not historical at all.
You should read what happen in Italy in 1943.
You will realize that you rule don’t fit.

In summer 1943, Germany fight in Italy with some few fachist troops but the Italian population welcomed the Allied
as liberator. Mussolini was arrested and new Italins negociate with the Allies!
Most of the Italians (Including Italian commanders) were very satisfied that the fascist governments fall down.
You really believe that the Italians would have welcome as liberator if the Nazi troops reconquer Italy in 1943 or 1944?

[MacNaughton]

But for the sake of game mechanics, it is important that we say that Germany “liberates” Rome. Also, for the sake of game mechanics, we can only take historical accuracy so far. Which means that if Rome is liberated by Germany, then we pretend that all the Italian territories all over the board will be perfectly happy to come back under the rule of Italy no matter the actual feeling of those people in actual history.

[Imperious Leader]

Italy should be liberated as an active axis player. When the allies took Rome, Germany took over North Italy and they were still fighting the allies.

Allied occupied Italy already give IPC to the allies , so indirectly support in those areas is pro allies.

Really Italy should be left alone and needs no special rules.

Vichy France is another issue.

Historical Vichy should automatically become a new strict neutral

Free French areas should be pro allies

Units for both should have a fixed setup of units representing the real capabilities of each.

All those dice rolls thing would imbalance the game, only a fixed result can be balanced and must be.

[crusaderiv]

I agree with IL.

But for the sake of game mechanics, it is important that we say that Germany “liberates” Rome. Also, for the sake of game mechanics, we can only take historical accuracy so far. Which means that if Rome is liberated by Germany, then we pretend that all the Italian territories all over the board will be perfectly happy to come back under the rule of Italy no matter the actual feeling of those people in actual history.

Well it’s not difficult to fix.
Axis = conquer.
Allies = liberate. `
So let see. Turn 9, USA liberated Italy and Rome. All Italian territories and pieces all over the board shoud surrender automatically to USA.
(Remove units from the gameboard). US player is now the owner of Italian terrritories. 
Turn 10, German player reconquer Italy. He’s now the new owner but not regain the control of ex-Italian territory.

[Make_It_Round]

@MacNaughton:

But for the sake of game mechanics, it is important that we say that Germany “liberates” Rome. Also, for the sake of game mechanics, we can only take historical accuracy so far. Which means that if Rome is liberated by Germany, then we pretend that all the Italian territories all over the board will be perfectly happy to come back under the rule of Italy no matter the actual feeling of those people in actual history.

Exactly. Thank you, sir.

@Imperious:

All those dice rolls thing would imbalance the game, only a fixed result can be balanced and must be.

Hmm… We are both talking about Axis and Allies, right?