@aldrahill Actually, I downloaded their map and printed out some sheets zoomed in on certain regions for help in planning moves. I was just working on coordinating my first two moves for Japan, and find it easier to plan on a map of the region than to simply write out the moves. I didn’t need a super high quality version of the map, but it’s helpful to see terrain and borders clearly.
Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…so the carrier could sit in SZ22 or with the U-Boat in SZ21 and the plane would fly MAP safely and attack the sub with a place to land on the carrier 1 or fewer SZ away.
Correct.
The U-Boat could Combat Move on it’s turn to SZ21 and attack the carrier, the carrier can defend/roll at a Lt CV defense hit @ 1.
Correct, and the fighter would gets its defense roll of 6. Here is a good point. If the sub hits on a first strike, the carrier cannot fire back and sinks. I assume the fighter still can and if it misses, the sub submerges, and the fighter is eliminated.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
@manincellv I wish there was a Playbook that provided more examples. The rules do not do this justice and like I said, 16 games in and we pretty much bypassed Convoy Raiding…just didn’t seem important and too easy to kill subs. Thank you for your input!
It’s hard to kill them. You need a plane on MAP, which are limited to 1 SZ, unless a seaplane, and/or a DD. Now once UK develops ASW, then you automatically get to roll in that one SZ you on escort duty for a possible hit on the Sub.
For subs to stay alive, just avoid SZ that planes can reach on MAP.
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@manincellv Makes sense. Guess the moral of the story is, don’t send a lone Lt CV and plane…lol…
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@sjelso one other thing. A sub before it submerges, gets to roll a die to see if it got a hit. Foe example, a plane on MAP and a DD attack the sub. Both miss and the sub rolls a hit. The DD is sunk and then the sub submerges.
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@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
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@manincellv So a normal plane (not seaplane nor long-range tech), from London, can patrol SZ25 and that is it? British Midlands can patrol one of the following SZ10, 11, 24 or 25.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv So a normal plane (not seaplane nor long-range tech), from London, can patrol SZ25 and that is it? British Midlands can patrol one of the following SZ10, 11, 24 or 25.
Correct.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
No. They get one roll.
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@manincellv said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
No. They get one roll.
I agree with everything manincellv has written, except this.
9.4 Retreats from Combat: Submarines
Attacking or Defending Submarines may submerge (i.e. retreat but remain in the same sea zone), in addition to retreating to an adjacent sea zone in lieu of making their next Attack or Defense roll." -
@hbg-gw-enthusiast That is correct, and the question becomes when does the sub submerge.
The choice to submerge can happen after the attacker has rolled his dice and the casualties seen, but before the sub gets his defensive die roll.
So if there are no hits from the attacker, the sub will submerge without a die roll. If there are hits, then the sub will get his one die roll.
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@sjelso See below.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
Yes, sorry he does forfeit his roll.
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@manincellv Wrong, a sub may submerge or roll. However, it gets to wait to see if IT is hit before it decides. If the sub gets hit it obviously is no submerging and is taking its final shot.
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@trig correct!
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@sjelso Think of MAP this way;
- You would need your aircraft that have a MAP range of 1 to be within 1 space of the intended sub target when you begin your turn in order to attack him. Whether you move your plane 1 space or your carrier 1 space to attack him is irrelevant.
- Seaplanes and Medium Bombers with long range aircraft tech can move up to 2 spaces to attack the sub because they have a MAP of 2.
- The only thing you can pair 1:1 to attack the sub with is a destroyer.
- If you miss the sub he can submerge. If you hit him he might as well fire back since he’s already going to die anyway. He can hit the destroyer but he can’t hit the plane. If there’s no destroyer don’t bother rolling the sub.
It’s always a good idea to have a destroyer present with an aircraft carrier when in open waters. If the sub attacks the carrier and gets a lucky hit then the planes will die if they have no legal landing space.
In regular naval combat any naval unit with an attack value can hit a sub if he fires at your ships. He has chosen top be in the fight and is open to being hit. He can either roll or submerge in any round of combat, but once he submerges he can’t pop up later in the same battle to fight again. He’s done after he submerges.
Advanced subs can only be hit by the planes on MAP. Destroyers have no ability to pair with the planes against them. If the Germans develop Advanced subs then you will be well advised to develop ASW.
I don’t blame you for not doing any convoying in your first few games. I did the same thing. Once you start though you will realize the value of it and discover that it really is a game within a game. It takes awhile to learn how to incorporate all of the aspects of GW into your game effectively. I’m just now learning how to be more effective with Strategic Bombing.
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@generalhandgrenade This and all the responses helpful and now can refer to them in the future. Now I need to read the Escort Duty rules again and post more questions!..:fearful: I also need to go review your videos…I think you did a video on all this but need to watch again.
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@sjelso Yup, subs are hard to kill, especially advanced subs.
However by the time adv. subs arrive, odds are there are long range aircraft facing them, which means they are facing medium bombers with a MAP range of 2.
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@generalhandgrenade i read all this and I’m still confused.
Turn 1 1939 setup, British attack Italian navy in Mediterranean, do Brits need to deploy a fighter to MAP to make sure subs are eliminated? Is there a separate battle for other naval units? Please post examples and thank you.
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@loki17 your example is somewhat improbable, as the UK is not at war with Italy in 1939 and can only declare war to a nation has declared war on another nation during the game (G.B. NRS v3.5).
However, in the event the Italy declared war before the Britsh turn, if the British attack the Italian fleet on 1939 turn one, this should be per naval combat rules (rule 9.6 and Table 9-4), but the submarines may decline combat unless you place aircraft on MAP (8.9).
In the box on page 37, it specifies that the attacking player will declare if he puts aircraft on MAP first and then the defending player will declare what he does with his subs.
However, if the Italians want to use their subs for defense, then I don’t see why you would need MAP, as they will take part in the naval combat. As @GeneralHandGrenade mentionned above “He has chosen top be in the fight and is open to being hit”.
However, rule 8.9 regarding submarines mentions:
“Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to Attack, kill them during convoy-raiding or hunt them using your aircraft on Maritime Air Patrol (paired with destroyers).”
Considering the previous comments, I feel that this note is incomplete, as you can also kill sumarines if the defending player chooses to have them take part in naval combat and does not submerge them before they are destroyed.
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Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).
8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”
You move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”
When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”
[Section edited with correction from Trig, below].
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