Lack of German naval strat: problem or not?


  • This is not another house rules thread right?  I can add wings to this thread so it fly’s away to its proper home.


  • I think that destroyers are overpowered since one destroyer can negate an unlimited number of submarine special abilities as well as allow an unlimited number of planes to attack all the submarines in a single sea zone.  Perhaps each destroyer should be limited to negating ONE submarine’s special abilities as well as allow planes to attack ONE submarine.  This would force the player to buy more destroyers in response to the enemy buying a bunch of subs.  I have no idea how this would play out in an actual game, so who knows if its a good idea or not.


  • Allright, bypassing the house rules discussions (especially the 1 DD vs 1 sub nonsense):

    Imho, it is possible to let Germany go U-Boat + air in AA41 with NO’s. Just spend about 20 IPC’s (leaving 20-30 going to Russia, including the ftrs/bmrs you bought with the first 20 IPC’s) each turn (= 3 subs, 2 subs 1 bmr/ftr and sooner or later 1 IC in France), which will get you:

    1. a safe mediterranean. (if the British fleet gets in, it might never get out  :evil:)
    with NO’s, this means 5/10 extra for Ita, 5 (either Gib or Egy will be axis) less for UK. Also, having that fun sidekick of Italy producing at about 20 each turn, makes for no worries to defend France, so those guys can go fight commies in the east.

    2. a safe Baltic
    making both Nwy and Swe much more easy to hold, and eliminating UK landing squads in Leningrad, Poland or Germany. So this also allows for more troops to the east.

    3. Britain will have to keep up fleet-wise
    which results in less British landing in Africa/Russia, thus again strengthening Italy and also weakening Russia.

    But alas, this is all theory. Has anyone actually tried it though, because it’s pretty easy both inventing and rejecting a killer strategy in theory. To quote H. Simpson: “In theory communism works.”

    But whoever said that subs don’t get you IPC’s are wrong. If they didn’t who would ever buy them? And in all the games I’ve played, they’re the single most used naval unit.


  • But whoever said that subs don’t get you IPC’s are wrong. If they didn’t who would ever buy them? And in all the games I’ve played, they’re the single most used naval unit.

    I did.  So in your strategy how many German subs do you end up buying?  How effective did you find them?  How many times did you rather wish you had purchased fighters/bombers?   And like you said, no theory, actual game results.

    Though if we’re talking about 1941 with NOs, the Axis seem at such an advantage anyways that whether or not Germany buys subs may not have that great of an effect on the game.  The net result is still be the same, i.e. a Axis victory.


  • there is a way to get subs in the med and thats a factory in bulgaria

    but yeah id always prefer 3 ftr over 5 subs / and 2 bmb over 4 subs BUT

    if i have a strong luftwaffe already (7 ftr 3bmb), 2 subs popping out bulgaria at round 4 or 5 will atleast soak 2 naval hits. then pimp italian fleet with ac/DD and have a nice counter attack on british fleet with luftwaffe + soaks.

    i could imagine this could work under right circumstances, which basically means US engages japan.


  • Though if we’re talking about 1941 with NOs, the Axis seem at such an advantage anyways that whether or not Germany buys subs may not have that great of an effect on the game.  The net result is still be the same, i.e. a Axis victory.

    I don’t agree and I think it will show in the tournament. People are starting to learn how to play the Allies and in the end I think the balance will be close to 50/50.

    But I do agree what you’re saying about fighters being better than subs, for 4 extra IPCs you get the ability to be used on land and to defend vs. invasions. A naval strat for Germany with today’s rules would have to involve buildning one-two CVs and probably some DDs so you can challenge the Allies directly and I’m unsure if that’s worth it IPC-wise.

    Subs in the Baltic won’t get out and will be blocked for 8 IPCs cost for UK, who can just put a DD in the North Sea. And if the Italians get a larger air force to attack that DD, USA can do the same and you’re blocked anyways.


  • I dont really see it as a problem, if you really wanted to use subs as germany just only build 1 per round and make sure you have a strong air force.  You dont have much room to dance your fleet, but that sub is powerful in tipping the scales when striking at navy with air power, just look at G1.  Would you trade the 2 subs in SZ 7 for 1 bomber?  I know I wouldn’t.


  • I don’t agree and I think it will show in the tournament. People are starting to learn how to play the Allies and in the end I think the balance will be close to 50/50.

    I hope I’m the one who’s wrong, but looking at the situation as a realist, the Axis earn too much money with NOs that starting rounds 3-4, they’re already outpacing what the Allies are making.  This completely throws off the balance of the game.


  • If you’re going to have ottawa as a victory city, the lack of a German Naval strat seems like a problem.  Either move the vc or give Germany a fighting chance in the Atlantic.


  • AA50, (and also Classic & AAR) is not about VCs. It’s about production, attrition and money.


  • @Subotai:

    AA50, (and also Classic & AAR) is not about VCs. It’s about production, attrition and money.

    Then why have them?  First side to take an enemy capital wins?


  • I’ve been trying out something lately.  Build 10 inf on G1, and then if you lost no fighters on G1, on G2 with your 48 IPCs, build 2 cv, 1 dd, 1 tr, 1 arm(or 1 researcher if playing with techs).  After this build, you can supplement the navy with just a few ships here and there, while sending large armies east to Russia.

    This won’t work for every game, but in one of my current games, it’s working like a charm.


  • I hope I’m the one who’s wrong, but looking at the situation as a realist, the Axis earn too much money with NOs that starting rounds 3-4, they’re already outpacing what the Allies are making.  This completely throws off the balance of the game.

    Yes, the IPC situation is tough for the Allies in the beginning, but once they strike at Italy it will change quickly. An Italy with both NOs is around 20-22 IPCs, and once that is erased the Axis is in a tough spot. In earlier editions, the weakest power was always the Soviet Union but that unenviable position has now been taken by Italy, and since eliminating a capital is so powerful I think Italy’s weakness outweighs the NO boost that the Axis gets in the early stages of the game.

    But the purpose of this thread was to see if people are lacking a German naval option or not. I think AA50 is a great game and certainly will be playing it no matter what, I’m just annoyed that the sub war wasn’t portrayed better, especially when they put so much thought into redesigning the sub unit.


  • Why does everyone think it impossible to keep a sub presence in the atlantic?  Of course, it takes a bit of work but it’s doable.  Firstly, build at least a bmb on G1, if not a sub/bmb, sub/ftr or 2 sub.  Secondly, make sure you clear the Atlantic as much as you can.  Can’t leave the bb sz 2, dd sz 6 or the ca/dd sz 12.  Those are all targets that are nice to destroy anyhow.  ftr nwe, ftr ger, sub sz 7 -> sz 12.  bmb ger, ftr nwy, sub sz 7 -> sz 2.  ss/ca sz 5 -> sz 6.  If you’ve done well, you have a ftr alg (reinforced by trn or by lib if desired), ftr fra, ftr bmb nwy, the ftr pol can go to nwy or fra after fighting in most any battle, and sub sz 6.  Now, if you built bmb on G1… you’ve got great coverage all the way to sz 2 and sz 8.

    The key here is, make sure you don’t get your subs trapped in sz 5.  Your target SZ should be sz 8.  From there you control every allied sz in the atl.  Since that’s as unrealistic as just about anything in A&A, your next two “control” zones should be sz 3 and sz 6… they can reach every GBR sz.  bmb operate ideally out of fra, their coverage there is nearly everything, they can even cover northern russian territories from there.  And just remember to keep building subs, they’re the infantry of naval combat.  You’re sending subs in to take hits, and ftr and bmb to kill.  Keep control of your vital SZ!  Anything that enters sz 3 or 7 SHOULD be killed if you’re building submarines, that’s the point.


  • Of course you should use your at-start subs aggressively like you describe. The problem is any sub you build will either be blocked in North Sea (sz6) or if you get it out to English Channel or Norwegian Sea (sz7 or sz3) it’s very easy for the UK player to send either one DD forward or move his entire fleet forward and destroy your sub while defending with their measly ‘1’ in defence. If you have enough air power you might force the UK player to send in only their DD with the RAF so as to not expose their fleet, but if I was UK I’ll trade one DD for one sub anyday since it comes out of Germany’s hard-pressed IPC pocket!

    The only way for BUILT subs to be effective for Germany is to get them to attack the main UK/US fleet in sz3 or sz7 in conjunction with air units and the mistaken DD block rule negates that possibility.


  • @Subotai:

    AA50, (and also Classic & AAR) is not about VCs. It’s about production, attrition and money.

    Says you.  My gaming circle plays way too aggressively to get bogged down like that.  The game is usually over by the 3rd turn.

    Also, I see no reason for Germany not to build Subs, seeing as they can easily shove Russia over to the point where Germany makes 50 and Russia makes 30, and then they can simply harass and trade till Godzilla crushes everything.  Why should Germany make a risky push into Moscow when they can win just by surviving?

    Also, you could declare that naval units can’t go to and from the Baltic Sea Zone unless Northwest Europe is controlled by friendlies.  Axis subs are thus invincible unless Northwest Europe is taken.


  • @wodan46:

    My gaming circle plays way too aggressively to get bogged down like that.  The game is usually over by the 3rd turn.

    Which side wins most often, which scenario, and do you play with NOs?


  • @Lynxes:

    Of course you should use your at-start subs aggressively like you describe. The problem is any sub you build will either be blocked in North Sea (sz6) or if you get it out to English Channel or Norwegian Sea (sz7 or sz3) it’s very easy for the UK player to send either one DD forward or move his entire fleet forward and destroy your sub while defending with their measly ‘1’ in defence. If you have enough air power you might force the UK player to send in only their DD with the RAF so as to not expose their fleet, but if I was UK I’ll trade one DD for one sub anyday since it comes out of Germany’s hard-pressed IPC pocket!

    The only way for BUILT subs to be effective for Germany is to get them to attack the main UK/US fleet in sz3 or sz7 in conjunction with air units and the mistaken DD block rule negates that possibility.

    Again I’ll say, if you build subs you’re telling your opponent “I will not let you go into sz 7 or sz 3.”  If you plan to be effective with them.  A sub on G1 will not be blocked into sz 5 unless the GB1 build is directly into sz 6.  Your goals are:  clear sz 2, clear sz 6.  You want ss sz 6 and, pie in the sky all 4 of your ftr survive, they’re in nwy x2, fra, and alg.  This will nearly force the GB player to spend either nothing on a navy or all 43.

    My general objective is to get a few subs on the board, spread them out, and use them as the infantry of the sea as Germany.  This strategy generally involves the aggressive pursuit of Kar, as an air-base established their allows ftrs to defend sz 3.

    If 2 subs then sz 5 sz 6
    “” 3 “” sz 3
    “” 4 “” sz 4

    As you space your subs, you need to be able to think “well if a dd sinks this sub it’s not a big deal because I will sink a dd and I will net 2 IPC, BUT if he goes full force at one of my subs I should be able to destroy whatever’s in that sea zone, or at least come out +IPCs”  If you’re spending money on this and you can’t tell yourself that, you’re just wasting the cash.

  • Moderator

    I think subs can provide a pretty good annoyance factor.

    Even if you are placing subs in Sz 5 and they get blocked by a UK DD in sz 6, Germany comes out ahead by 2 ipc.  If you have multiple subs and UK/US moves their fleet to sz 6 to block, you may be able to get off a strafing run with 4-5 subs and 5-6 planes.  In this case the subs make great fodder.  Maybe you lose 1 plane as well but you’ll still inflict about 5 hits which likely means the Allies losing DDs or possibly CAs compared to the majority of your losses being subs.  And you can always play the OOL game too and lose an extra ftr or 2 and try for a second rd of combat with 1-2 subs and try to sink an AC or another Capital ship.  Obviously this scenerio would depend on the overall fleet size but I can see its uses in certain circumstances.


  • As I said UK will gladly spend 8 IPCs to block several subs from being used against the invading fleet. If you only build one sub, then maybe UK will stack up its main fleet with that DD instead. No way the Allies are going to move a major fleet into North Sea if you have several subs in the Baltic Sea! They don’t need to, no land territory borders the North Sea that can’t be invaded from other sea zones. And if they want to get into the Baltic, they just put up a DD as a block in the North Sea the first turn and then move in their fleet from English channel or Norwegian Sea.

    The only way to use subs is, as I detailed some time ago in posts on the strategy boards, is to use ITALIAN air to attack the DD block. And that will only work until US sends in a DD. In the '42 scenario, JAPANESE air can be used to attack the US DD block. All this is too gamey tactics and hardly something you can base a sound strategy on.  :|  Subs were not intended to be built by Germany for this game, and that fact will remain until subs are boosted in some way.

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