Ups, my fault. Gibraltar is not considered a canal, so in theory u can pass with transport, but only to be stopped by the destroyer as mentioned earlier in this topic.
BTW: We play Gibraltar-Morocco as canal as a house-rule, perhaps that explains my post above.
Should Germany take Egypt first turn?
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Okay, IL, you take the axis, and I’ll take the allies. Then we’ll switch just to see which is stronger. :)
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You can actually do this. Look at my strategy map and perform the same moves as indicated for the German player.
IN some cases i offer choices, so take the one you think i would take. It should be clear after G1. count up the eliminated units. I prefer you use my play fast strategy, so buy the tanks and not the carrier.
Then reverse and employ your idea. If you have more eliminated allied units, let me know and ill adapt to your strategy.
It will only take one turn to see.
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That’s the funny thing about the differences between 41’ and 42’. My policy was always to not attack Egypt in either of the two scenarios because it was a waste of ground units when you can just load up Libya and the push the UK out with the threat of a superior attack on turn 2 without having to risk sending units into a 50/50 battle on turn 1 and your opponent rolling a yahtzee on defense.
But then I took a hard look at 41’ and realized that you HAVE to attack Egypt with Germany. And you can’t half a** it either. You have to bring the German bomber because the UK fighter MUST be detroyed even at the expense of the German bomber. The reason for this is because of the 3 bomber purchase by the UK that I’ve seen somebody else advocate.
If anything in Egypt survives, the UK can move those units to Trans-Jordan and build the 3 bombers on their turn. That gives them 4 bombers and a fighter to hit the Italian fleet on UK2 and provides them with a place to land in Trans-Jordan that Germany can’t get to on G2 to stop it.
Even if all you get is a cleared result from the German Egypt attack, on Italy’s turn they can take Egypt with their 2 Libyan inf and hit the 2 UK inf in Trans-Jordan with 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 CA, 1 BB which is fairly good odds to take both and remove the landing places for the UK bombers.
Note: this also requires that the Japanese sink the UK DD/TP in sz35, so send 2 fighters to that attack and make absolutely sure that those units are sunk. The last thing you need is to send 1 fighter there and trade the DD for the fighter and have the TP survive to land 2 more units into Trans-Jordan.
In the 42’ scenario they can’t do it because the UK doesn’t have the income to build the third bomber and the German DD in sz13 can also provide an added measure of protection.
So to answer the question: You don’t have to in 42’, but you must in 41’ and bring the bomber to make sure it’s done right.
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505,
We agree that Egypt has to be attacked, if only to knock down the stack. Where we disagree is the use of the bomber.
You are thinking about the Fighter being used in UK 2, but that can be satisfied with the Italian attack afterwards. I’m more concerned with the Fighter, Bomber, Cruiser, Destroyer attack on UK 1!
That’s why I send the bomber to the more certain battle in SZ 12 to kill those ships instead. (2 Submarines, Bomber vs Cruiser, Destroyer.) Now it is Fighter, Bomber vs 2 Cruisers, Battleship if he attacks, which he won’t.
Round 2 is a different animal. One would hope Germany got Egypt on Round 1 so Italy can take Jordan on Round 2 and get the National Objective, but if Germany failed, Italy should have taken Egypt on Round 1. Sure, England could have the bombers to sink the Italian fleet, but wow, that’s gunna be costly for England at about the same time they need to start dealing with protecting transports from German fighters and bombers!
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But then I took a hard look at 41’ and realized that you HAVE to attack Egypt with Germany. And you can’t half a** it either. You have to bring the German bomber because the UK fighter MUST be detroyed even at the expense of the German bomber. The reason for this is because of the 3 bomber purchase by the UK that I’ve seen somebody else advocate.
……
So to answer the question: You don’t have to in 42’, but you must in 41’ and bring the bomber to make sure it’s done right.So losing Anglo-Egypt round 1 dooms the axis?
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No it does not. But it makes life really hard on the Axis.
I think what U-505 is saying is that losing the Italian Fleet before even getting a chance to use it once dooms the Axis. (Notice I am not saying I agree or disagree, only that I think that is what he was saying.)
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ok what exactly do you bring on turn 1 to kill Egypt and what are the % of success?
actually also measure the % of success of the planes attacking the Italian fleet, but give the Italians 1 extra destroyer, because if they see 3 bombers, they will build something right?
Then compare the difference in value considering what is gained and lost vs. the allocation of the resources to other attacks besides Egypt on G1
Then you have an accurate value. right?
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40% to kill the Egyptian Fighter
30% to take EgyptGermany: 2 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor
England: 2 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter(My experience is that Egypt actually goes much better, but that’s what the sim calls it at.)
NOTE: SZ 12 should be utterly destroyed by 2 Submarines, Bomber so no England attack on SZ 14 in round 1.
By round 2, Italy should have taken Egypt and maybe Jordan as well…kinda depends what’s where.
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And whatever bombers do survive seazone 14 are now in a position for the Japanese to mop up leaving England with for all intents and purposes its first round buy gone.
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And possibly Italy +5 for having Jordan, Egypt and France (and/or Gibraltar, as if it mattered a lick.)
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40% to kill the Egyptian Fighter
30% to take Egyptyou mean the % of failure is 60% to kill the fighter and 70% to fail at Egypt?
Thats a horrible opening move. If you fail you not only lose Egypt but still lost the Italian fleet.
What is wrong with landing and taking Jordan on G1 with either Italy or Germany, and the other stocks up in Libya
ON G2 Germany takes Egypt ( before UKs turn) and UK with 3 bombers cant land?you still kill a few units, making Egypt weaker , then hit it again before the bombers are in play?
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Actually, IL, it’s only Egypt that would fail, NOT a loss of the Italian fleet.
You still need something that can hit SZ 14. Right now England only has 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber. That’s not enough to take 1 Battleship, 2 Cruisers.
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well G1 must contain really good attacks and not marginal ones. What is wrong with Jordan on G1 and Egypt on G2?
it gets the same thing and does not risk failure.
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The problem with Jordan on G1 is that Italy cannot take Egypt on round 1. It just does not have the firepower.
I guess if you bring the bomber from Germany to Egypt your odds are significantly better, it would be:
2 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor, Bomber
vs
2 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter
It gives you a 75% chance to clear it with your bomber surviving.
Problem is, your odds dropped significantly in SZ 12, which I think is the more important of the two battles! (No one is attacking SZ 14 with 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber, I don’t care how crazy you are!)
SZ 12 with the bomber is 88% chance to win and do so with probably one submarine and the bomber
Without the bomber it drops too 30% with odds of only killing the destroyer, not the cruiser.
Fighter, Bomber, Cruiser vs 2 Cruisers and a Battleship is worth the risk to me. At the least, you should get one or two of his cruisers before going down in flames.
I’d even consider Destroyer, Cruiser, Bomber to SZ 14 just for a shot at killing his fleet, as small a shot as it is.
But for many players, that means England would bring the Cruiser up with the Battleship and have 2 shore bombardments of France each round isntead of them attacking SZ 14. (I’m a risk taker, sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires.)
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The problem with Jordan on G1 is that Italy cannot take Egypt on round 1. It just does not have the firepower.
Germany takes Jordan on G1, Italy backs it up by landing in Jordan.
On G2 Germany with planes wipes out Egypt with combined attack, UK wont hit Italian fleet with bombers because Italy built a destroyer and the combined German and Italian attack on the bombers would basically exchange all the uk assets. and this exchange is a net loss for UK and added with its fleet loses, UK is in a huge hole to replace all its lost ships and its lost air units…i dont think they will risk it for the Italian fleet.4,3,3,2 vs. 4,4,4,3 is not really a done deal either.
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The problem with that IL is that England will use the Egypt forces against Trans-Jordan BEFORE Italy goes. I agree with Jenn on Egypt, as a matter of fact I think it is the only G1 attack we do the same way. IF England buys all bombers on UK 1, Japan can and should position itself on J2 so that whatever survives Against the Italian fleet goes bye-bye. With my Japan opening they could be looking at 3 loaded CVs in the Indian Ocean just dying to mop up some bombers.
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So losing Anglo-Egypt round 1 dooms the axis?
@Cmdr:
No it does not. But it makes life really hard on the Axis.
I think what U-505 is saying is that losing the Italian Fleet before even getting a chance to use it once dooms the Axis. (Notice I am not saying I agree or disagree, only that I think that is what he was saying.)
No, it doesn’t doom the Axis. But, it puts them behind the eight ball. The Axis relies a good deal on Italy making more than just the 9 European IPC’s and distracting the Allies with their fleet so if most or all of the fleet is sunk on UK2 then the Allies can leave just a token fleet in sz12 [maybe 1 loaded CV, 1 or 2 TP] to mop up what’s left in Africa and provide a defensive force against the Japanese and then begin the 1-2 UK/US punch in NWE or France.
The Italian fleet keeps the Allies honest. It forces them to have 2 separate fully funcional fleets [1 for Europe, usually UK, 1 for Africa, usually US] because Italy cannot be allowed to devour all of the UK’s African assets. Without the Italian fleet, the Allies are able to spend much less on their navy because they won’t have to worry about contesting Africa early so they can combine their fleets in the English Channel and concentrate on Germany.
I’d say that if the Italian fleet goes down early, you should expect to lose the game if you are playing even a moderately competent opponent.
@Imperious:
The problem with Jordan on G1 is that Italy cannot take Egypt on round 1. It just does not have the firepower.
Germany takes Jordan on G1, Italy backs it up by landing in Jordan.
On G2 Germany with planes wipes out Egypt with combined attack, UK wont hit Italian fleet with bombers because Italy built a destroyer and the combined German and Italian attack on the bombers would basically exchange all the uk assets. and this exchange is a net loss for UK and added with its fleet loses, UK is in a huge hole to replace all its lost ships and its lost air units…i dont think they will risk it for the Italian fleet.4,3,3,2 vs. 4,4,4,3 is not really a done deal either.
A44bigdog is right, IL. UK goes after Germany so they have the luxury of deciding what is easiest for them to accomplish before the Italians move.
Here’s the problem I see with attacking T-J with Germany. Let’s assume that T-J is taken with an armor surviving for Germany. On the UK turn, they attack with 2 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig and if the armor hits they take the fighter as a casualty and if the armor misses they land the fighter in Caucasus. Either way, Trans-Jordan has 2 inf, 1 art, 1 arm left.
That leaves the Italians to attack Trans-Jordan with 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 inf, 1 arm. The big problem with this is that it would take them away from the added defense of a sz14 DD build. Second, you can pretty much expect that the UK will have 2 units left [1 art, 1 arm] after that attack.
That leaves Germany to blitz an Armor from Libya and the bomber for support. [1 bmb, 1 arm v. 1 art, 1 arm] is only around 50/50 to take and 1 hit by the defenders requires the loss of the bomber. And to be honest, if I see Germany attack T-J on G1 instead of Egypt and I can spare it, I’m going to position 2 armor in Caucasus to attempt to retake T-J on R2 and provide the UK bombers with their necessary landing grounds.
Here’s the truncated step by step layout.
Axis1. (G1) German attack on T-J [1 inf, 1 arm, 1 bmb v. 2 inf]
Allies1. (UK1) UK counterattack on T-J [ 2 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig v. approximately 1 arm]
Axis2. (Ita1) Italy softens up UK forces in T-J [1 inf, 1 arm, 1 CA, 1 BB v. approximately 2 inf, 1 art, 1 arm]
Axis3 (G2) Germany finishing attack on T-J [1 arm, 1 bmb v. approximately 1 art, 1 arm]
Possible Allies2. Russian counterattack on T-J [2 arm v. 1 arm]There are a lot of steps in that layout. 3 of them for the Axis and only 1 definite one for the Allies(the Russian attack on T-J is optional). All 3 of the Axis attacks have a smaller measure of success than the lone Allied one and on the last Axis attack you’re probably going to lose the German bomber anyway so in the long run you might as well just attack Egypt with Germany on G1 with bomber support because the odds of killing the fighter go up to about 80%.
And assuming that the UK fighter dies in the UK attack on T-J you could just abandon the rest of the Axis attacks and hole up in sz14 with the Italian fleet and a DD build, but 4 bmb v. 1 BB, 2 CA, 1 DD is 50/50 which means that the odds are high that the Italians would lose all but the BB and the US could then commence the final cleanup.
There is one safety valve that I saw and a44bigdog hit upon it. However, it’s really a temporary waste of a lot of Axis firepower that is really needed elsewhere. If something goes wrong with an attack on Egypt or T-J by Germany then the only way to save the Italian fleet would be to probably move the entire Japanese sz61 fleet, including at least one of the TP’s, if not both, to sz37 and use them to attack Burma with the threat of landing in Egypt and/or T-J on J2.
The reason I said it’s a temporary waste of firepower is because the bulk of the sz61 navy usually goes toward Philippines so depending on how you manage the Japanese turn, you could be shortchanging the Japanese on income or allowing Allied units that usually die to end up surviving. And it all happens before the UK moves. So as soon as the Japanese player does it, the UK player could just revert to their normal opening build without missing a step and they would be subjecting the Axis to a weaker than normal opening without actually having done anything at all.
And lastly, here is my reasoning. As the Allies, I know that the Italian fleet will cost me in lost UK money, extra Axis units from Italian NO’s gained and territories conquered, extra shipping purchased to bottle them up, and lost Allied units in eventually sinking them. And I also know that all of that added up will cost me more in the long run than it would for me to throw away a UK bomber, fighter, all of UK’s first turn income, and maybe a few US units and a portion of their first turn income.
So why wouldn’t I do it? If the Axis player is going to offer me the destruction of the Italian fleet not only early in the game but also at a long run discount, then I’m going to take it every single time.
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I’d say that if the Italian fleet goes down early, you should expect to lose the game if you are playing even a moderately competent opponent.
What do you define as early? Round 2 is definitely early, is Round 3 early?
I have a way to eliminate the italian fleet by US 3.
It involves a UK1 buy of a/c, 2 CA (assuming UK loses sz2 and sz12 fleet G1).
Also, USA buys 2 bombers, ftrs (& sub?)Round 2 UK can focus on an atlantic fleet, US can spend cash on units elsewhere.
USA3 has 2 ftr (or maybe even 4 ftr), 4 bombers on the Italian Fleet.
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Yes, I mean UK2 when the UK bombers attack or at the very latest US2 when the US aircraft cleans up what the UK bombers leave behind, which would, at worst, probably just be the Italian BB.
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That leaves the Italians to attack Trans-Jordan with 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 inf, 1 arm. The big problem with this is that it would take them away from the added defense of a sz14 DD build. Second, you can pretty much expect that the UK will have 2 units left [1 art, 1 arm] after that attack.
Italy has a fighter and 2 CA so add two threes.
Germany lands a tank and inf in Libya
So lets say Italy lands a tank and inf in Libya and builds a DD
Uk builds 3 bombers ( in 41)
Germany takes out egypt on G2 ( this includes landing another tank and inf and all planes in range. UK does not survive this no matter what.
Uk takes its bombers (thats all they have left) and hits italian fleet. Italian fleet is 4,3,3,2, and another hit from bb, so 5 hit fleet.
UK has 4 bombers: 4,4,4,4
This is basically an exchange at best, with japan taking care of strangler bombers. , but also remind you I will keep each transport in a seperate sea zone so that UK cant sink some ships.
Now because i have wiped out UK in egypt with great odds i have most of my forces.
If uk, does a thing where they leave a token force in Egypt and backs up to Jordan on UK1, then Italy will kill egypt on I1 and Germany will still hit jordan on G2 but with what basically amounts to a somewhat equal outcome than a G1 attempt
Japan mops up the trash if they fail
loses: 48 IPC for UK air plus the allocation of G1 alternative German attacks gets 20+7+12+8=47 off uk naval and loses 2-3 subs
20+24+8+7=59 for Italy naval lost
95 UK loses compared to 59+18=77 lost for axis forces.
This does not include land combats, but the exchange is still in the axis favor
now compare that to a 30% success rate for a G1 Egypt attack.
now also consider, if you take Egypt on G1 at 30% ratio, and you also managed to take Jordan, you only bought another turn for the Medd fleet because the determined UK player will reload bombers and send it to Caucasus and wipe you out not matter what. Plus as A. Roll has point out USA will bring 3 bombers in US3 So your trading a very risky attack for the potential of saving the Italians for one extra turn, when you could be taking out 4 naval units on G1 with minimal loses and stocking up for a better attack on Egypt for turn 2, because no matter what Egypt will fall on G2 and you can also spread out your Italian fleet as follows:
sz14- 1 AP-1CA
sz15- 1 BB- AP
sz16- 1 DD
sz17- 1 CAnow the spread can mess up UK
also you can consider a japanese attack on Jordan on J2 ( also played before UK 2)
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