Diplomacy

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Gibraltar gets interdiction shots, plus they are mountain defense, plus only two units can attack it.

Gibraltar only gets Interdiction shots at hostile non-Submarine naval units moving between SZ12 -> SZ13.

It wouldn’t get to shoot at Germany’s (G1) naval units coming from SZ14 -> SZ13 because they aren’t moving through the Straits of Gibraltar.

So, for clarity – later on in the game you could attack Gibraltar with 2 ground units and 2 air units.  The point being that you can only move 2 ground units in.

@Imperious:

Japan cannot influence neutrals that it does not have a presence… It may not be clarified before on this point… but i think we need to place some limitations on piling all the diplomacy rolls for all three axis or allies on one neutral…like a diplomatic blitzkrieg.

Oh, this is new.  We’ve been allowing all three Allies to get +1 on Spain whenever they invade Western Europe.

The same for Axis whenever Japan or Germany takes Trans-Jordan or Persia we let both Axis get +1 for each.

So, for clarity would just the person who claimed the territory get the +1 or anyone that had troops in the territory (e.g., usually co-occupied by US/UK).

This changes things quite drastically on the Diplomatic front.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

Yes OMG your applying the +1 modifier for each of the three allied players and piling even japans rolls in?

You cant do this. Each nation has its sphere of influence.

Germany/Italy can influence neutrals in Europe and Africa

Japan can only influence Asian nations

USSR can only influence nations adjacent to her territories

UK can influence any neutral adjacent to her colonies

USA can influence N and S America.

Exceptions: If you have what they call a “dog in the fight”  say Americans somehow invaded and control Saudi Arabia… they can begin to influence adjacent neutrals.

So you cant have situations where Peru turns into a Japanese ally unless they landed and took Mexico and have a foothold in South America

I will add and have tekkyy add this:

You must allocate your free diplomatic rolls to no more than one nation per turn… ( no piling up)

If you buy diplomatic rolls then you can allocate more than one “purchased” roll on the same neutral

Also, no more total rolls overall on a neutral than its IPC value… If neutral has no IPC value then only one roll per neutral.

thoughts?

[oldsalty]

I agree IL, as it evens out the playing field and makes the game as realistic as playable.  Our group dicided early on that each individual Axis or Allied nation whould only benefit from their own diplomatic rolls.

Each nation has its sphere of influence.  Germany/Italy can influence neutrals in Europe and Africa.  Japan can only influence Asian nations.  USSR can only influence nations adjacent to her territories UK can influence any neutral adjacent to her colonies.  USA can influence N and S America.  Exceptions: If you have what they call a “dog in the fight”  say Americans somehow invaded and control Saudi Arabia… they can begin to influence adjacent neutrals.

To me, this is a new interpretation.  (Correct me if I’m wrong.)  Not a bad one as it serves the historical side but is it also playable?  I think it is and plan on incorperating it into play for our group.

However, if you are going to limit nations diplomacy to only specific territories, you have got to put that in writing.

PS  Will someone please tell me have to enter a quote in a box :?

[Bierwagen]

@oldsalty:

PS  Will someone please tell me have to enter a quote in a box :?

Hit the Quote option in the top right of a thread and you’ll see the format.

Enjoy!
-Bierwagen

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Yes OMG your applying the +1 modifier for each of the three allied players and piling even japans rolls in?

You cant do this. Each nation has its sphere of influence.

Oh, I like this much better than what is currently written.

We really need to clarify this from the rules:

@AARHE:

Diplomacy Rolls
… Team control of each territory adjacent to neutral not controlled originally by your team increases hit value by 1.

Unless this is covered in AARHE 1939, I’ve never seen anything else.  Nor have I seen anything about buying additional dice.  There are apparently many assumptions that I’m not familiar with.

Lost in the land of Diplomatic maneuvering…

help

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

Quote

Each nation has its sphere of influence.  Germany/Italy can influence neutrals in Europe and Africa.  Japan can only influence Asian nations.  USSR can only influence nations adjacent to her territories UK can influence any neutral adjacent to her colonies.  USA can influence N and S America.  Exceptions: If you have what they call a “dog in the fight”  say Americans somehow invaded and control Saudi Arabia… they can begin to influence adjacent neutrals.

To me, this is a new interpretation.  (Correct me if I’m wrong.)  Not a bad one as it serves the historical side but is it also playable?  I think it is and plan on incorporating it into play for our group.

Japan had no influence on say Sweden or Turkey… Influence is basically having and financing a 5th column in a neutral and trying to turn them to establish a Anti- (insert enemy nation here) government.

from page 17 of the Rulesbook:

Level of cooperation

Level of cooperation Benefits from neutral
+5 Fully committed to Allies
+4 Pro-Allies, Allies units can enter
+3 Pro-Allies, income goes to allies
+2 Neutral, Allies air units can fly over
+1 Neutral, Allies naval units can dock
0 Neutral
-1 Neutral, Axis naval units can dock
-2 Neutral, Axis air units can fly over
-3 Pro-Axis, income goes to axis
-4 Pro-Axis, Axis units can enter
-5 Fully committed to Axis

An attack on a neutral by team A causes it to join team B, taking it to +5/-5 accordingly and its units enter
the game immediately. Naval units are placed in any adjacent sea zone. Territory, income, and units go to
the player (on team B) with the closest original capital VC and still holding the capital. If team B lost all
their original capitals then they go to the player with the closest occupied capital VC.
Naval units may “dock” at neutrals with at least 1 level of co-operation towards your team. An attack on
a docked naval unit is an attack on the neutral. Naval units may not “dock” at the same neutral for two
consecutive game rounds.

Diplomacy Rolls
Select a neutral at or above -2 if Allies, at or below +2 if Axis, before each roll. Each player may only target
a neutral once per turn. Hitting on a 1 the neutral moves one position towards your team. Team control of
each territory adjacent to neutral not controlled originally by your team increases hit value by 1. Income
goes to the player that moved the neutral to +3 or -3. Territory and units goes to that player when the neutral
moves to +5/-5 position by diplomacy rolls.

Nation Diplomacy Rolls

Germany 2
Italy 0
Japan 1
Soviet Union 1
UK 1
US 2

The rules say each nation can target one neutral per turn…what it should say to clarify is:

First part:Each player cannot perform more than one free diplomacy roll for each neutral, while additional purchased rolls can be targeted against the same neutral in a given turn. Additionally, a neutral cannot be targeted for diplomacy by each side more than once per turn.

Second part: Any purchased dice for diplomatic rolls must be paid for before rolling so you cant buy two rolls fail and then buy two more… you have only one purchase opportunity and if you succeed on the first roll, the others are wasted because they were allocated only for that designated neutral.

This fixes it. If Spain is rolled by axis only one axis player can try it ( only either Germany or Italy) and only one roll, unless you buy more rolls then that same nation can pile up a few more rolls on the same neutral.

You cant have Italy try spain, then fail, Then have Germany try spain, then fail, then lastly, have Japan have a go at it.

[Bierwagen]

This is the first I’ve heard that you can purchase more rolls for diplomacy.

How much do they cost?

The only place I’ve seen something similar is in “The War Game”.  You can spend money to influence neutrals, but I have yet to play it.

• Bierwagen

[oldsalty]

I think IL was thinking about purchasing Development rolls.  There is nothing in the 1939 rules regarding any diplomacy varience.  I also checked the 02-09-08 release date of version 4.0 (long version) and nothing was there.  Unless this was discussed and decided in another topic string.

[Imperious Leader]

Ok sorry i was looking at an old draft… you cannot purchase additional rolls… my bad.

so i modify as follows:

Each player cannot perform more than one free diplomacy roll for each neutral. Additionally, a neutral cannot be targeted for diplomacy by each side more than once per turn.

[Imperious Leader]

Unless this was discussed and decided in another topic string.

yes right this was a big discussion a while back. again sorry to confuse you guys.

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Ok sorry i was looking at an old draft… you cannot purchase additional rolls… my bad.

so i modify as follows:

Each player cannot perform more than one free diplomacy roll for each neutral. Additionally, a neutral cannot be targeted for diplomacy by each side more than once per turn.

From some past discussions we were allowing someone like Germany, with 2 dice, to throw both against the same country.  However, they could only move it one block even if both dice scored hits…

Even with all these rolls we’ve been abusing (e.g., allowing Japan to help Germany influence Spain or Turkey) – we have only once turn a county, and it was very late in the game.  I think Germany got Turkey once.  ONLY after they had Trans-Jordan & Persia for a +2 modifier.

So, I haven’t found Diplomacy to be that much of a player really.  Though it does add some excitement.

I’m a little nervous about this Gibraltar issue though.  We hadn’t been playing with that one.

I do like the fact that certain countries only influence certain regions.  That one needs to be spelled out.  Something akin to the Convey Raid Chart by country and what territories they influence.

I also think that if the US invades Western Europe that they should be allowed to roll on Spain.  And likewise if Japan makes it to Persia (which in our games they usually do) they should be allowed to roll on Turkey.

Thanks for the great discussions.  The more we play this here in San Antonio – the more we keep uncovering.

So, the game stays very dynamic.

Enjoy the day!

• Bierwagen

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

This fixes it. If Spain is rolled by axis only one axis player can try it ( only either Germany or Italy) and only one roll, unless you buy more rolls then that same nation can pile up a few more rolls on the same neutral.

It’s always an interesting exercise talking to you IL… you have so many games in your head that I never know if I’m talking the right rule set.

So, you always bring up a lot of good ideas and options that keep me on my toes.

Italy has no Diplomacy Rolls in AARHE 4.0 Draft (24 Jul 08) ;-)

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

It’s always an interesting exercise talking to you IL… you have so many games in your head that I never know if I’m talking the right rule set.

yes i hear that quite often it seems… 50 different games using similar systems, plus millions of drafts with ideas that no longer apply half the time…

yes italy has no rolls…just 3 axis and 4 allies total

[Bierwagen]

If you invade a Neutral and defeat whatever converted forces are there do you then begin to control the income?

Or is the income solely dependent on the “Level of Cooperation” chart.

Say Germany converts Spain to -5 or even -3.  Can UK/US invade and control the income?  Or does the income still go to Germany?

All of sudden I’m filled with dialect tension… I hate this feeling of uncertainty.

The question:
What happens to the income value of a neutral country that is invaded?

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

If you invade a Neutral and defeat whatever converted forces are there do you then begin to control the income?

yes

Say Germany converts Spain to -5 or even -3.  Can UK/US invade and control the income?  Or does the income still go to Germany?

The income goes to Germany until Spain is controlled by enemies of Germany. If UK invaded Spain its immediately a -5 ally to Germany and Germany gets the money.

The question:

What happens to the income value of a neutral country that is invaded?

If you invade a neutral its immediately turned into a +5 or -5 full ally of the opposing player, the neutral now gives you the income and they control its forces as its new ally.

[Bierwagen]

O.k. I’m still confused, so let me make the following statement:

Once a country is converted (+/- 3) it gives the income to the “full ally” regardless of whether it is controlled or occupied by the enemy.

Is that true or false?

[Imperious Leader]

Once a country is converted (+/- 3) it gives the income to the “full ally” regardless of whether it is controlled or occupied by the enemy.

Is that true or false?

once you got it in +3/-3 status the OTHER side cannot try to sway it back to a more neutral status… the nation is said to be in your camp or the enemies camp… its not a full ally until you got it to ±5… the only thing is the enemy cannot move it back to -+2 or anything.

So the nations that are 2 either way should be immediate targets to get them in your camp.

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Once a country is converted (+/- 3) it gives the income to the “full ally” regardless of whether it is controlled or occupied by the enemy.

Is that true or false?

once you got it in +3/-3 status the OTHER side cannot try to sway it back to a more neutral status… the nation is said to be in your camp or the enemies camp… its not a full ally until you got it to ±5… the only thing is the enemy cannot move it back to -+2 or anything.

So the nations that are 2 either way should be immediate targets to get them in your camp.

Understood.  There is no way to sway it once it reaches +/-3.

That is not the question.

The question is what options do the other team have?

I want to know what happens once a neutral becomes “sympathetic” to the opposing team .  Is there any option to deny the extra income to the enemy other than to SBR, Rocket Attack, or A-Bomb it?

[Imperious Leader]

-3 Pro-Axis, income goes to axis
-4 Pro-Axis, Axis units can enter
-5 Fully committed to Axis

so lets say you got Spain and your germany… Spain is at -3 and with a few more rolls you will be able to enter with German units , and at -5 you can send her units and fight in foreign lands for Germany.

The allies have all the standard options:

Invasion and capture: spainish units outside spain are converted to German units and USA can get the income by conquest and even begin building new spainish units according to all the other rules.

SBR/ A- Bomb: USA can blow the hell out of spain and take its income from Germany by SBR or reduce it permanently with A-bomb.

other than that for income will always flow to Germany and Italy. This is important rule. The income can go to either European player on these allies… they can be assigned as German or Italian. Their is no other way to deny income from a  converted ally neutral.

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Invasion and capture: spainish units outside spain are converted to German units and USA can get the income by conquest and even begin building new spainish units according to

“USA can get the income by conquest” is the problem I was looking for.

Can UK then invade Saudi Arabia and “get the income by conquest” with no resistance.

If this true I don’t see the point of it being neutral.