Unfortunately, the powers of both sides are not comparable to any of the games, so we can’t just play it out with side switching house rules (and other stuff too, but I’m just saying a new setup will need to be designed). The Soviets were even less modernised than in 1941. The real question is Germany. If Germany fights with the Soviets, (depends on what Hitler’s short term plan is) the outcome is uncertain, especially with Italy’s allegiance. It Germany fights against the Soviets, the Soviets would probably fall, especially if Japan can be convinced to jump into the war.
Nazi Germany VS The Soviet Union
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This may have been pointed out already but what if England and France had not lived up to their promise to Poland. No Western front. Now you have a scenario were Hitler could focus souly on the USSR.
Many Ukranians looked upon the Germans as liberators at first. Then reality set in. With fair treatment and the right propaganda who nows how many soldiers Hitler could have drawn from the western nations living under Soviet occupation.
It’s incorrect to say these people would have been fighting their former countrymen if they had decided to kill some Russians. The USSR was an empire guided by an ideology and dominated by Russia. The provinces, territories, what have you, of the USSR were nations before the USSR. Now that the USSR has collapsed they are nations again. People in these lands would have gladly fought against their former oppressors.
In this scenario Germany wins no sweat.
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Yes if Germany adopted a Anti-Commitern crusade and dropped the actual intent of what the Ukraine would eventually become, then they would have turned Russia into the situation that existed in 1917. But the Nazis didn’t really mask their intentions to their enemies. So its not possible to have it turn out that way unless Hitler was replaced. Many of his Generals were hard core Nazi ideologues ( Von Reichenau) who had their own polices to exact on the Soviet people.
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Could the U.S.S.R survived a winter without Moscow?
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depends on when the Germans take Moscow.
If they get it in October 41 no, because the Germans fan out and take all the rail points east of Moscow before the snow falls and deny Soviet logistical support on her north/south rail axis.
If its something from Typhoon in Dec 41, the Germans were too exhausted to push further allocating the last Battalion in that effort. Soviets hold for sure.
If Germans went for Moscow again in Summer 42, which is what the Soviets expected… then It would have been basically Kursk a year earlier with no hope of victory. However, the Soviets totally failed in Operations Mars and if Hitler was prepared for the Soviet attack he could have captured Moscow in early 1942 and could have really changed things back to Germany.
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germany reached its full potential in 1943.
it invaded in 41. and if it took ALL of its forces east b/c it wasnt at war with US, UK, and european nations, it would have smashed right into moscow.
people would have given up on the soviet government. its not like the gov’t ever did anything good to the soviet people.
I completely agree. They were at Moscows door even with valuable resources being pulled west in defense of the Father Land. All they had to do was take that Soviet Government down and the rest would have been easy. Most towns in the beginning, looked at the SS brigades as liberators. In fact it was grateful Russian citizens who showed the Luftwaffe how to mix oil to get proper visocity when it was 60 below and they taught them about liting small gasoline fires under the engines in that weather so they would start. The Russian government and especaillly Stalin himself, had been so horrific, that their may have been a civlian uprising once Moscow was taken.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.
thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.
You um, do know that, the Communists under Stalin killed much more civilians in mass murder and extermination purges than the Nazis ever could have killed? A modest estimate puts the death toll at 20 million, but estimates range from 12 million to 40 million it seems. Yet, “all Nazis are evil” but Communist Russia ain’t so bad. Makes perfect sense… since the victors write history.
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@Rakeman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.
thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.
You um, do know that, the Communists under Stalin killed much more civilians in mass murder and extermination purges than the Nazis ever could have killed? A modest estimate puts the death toll at 20 million, but estimates range from 12 million to 40 million it seems. Yet, “all Nazis are evil” but Communist Russia ain’t so bad. Makes perfect sense… since the victors write history.
That is very insightful Rakeman. My opinion exactly. “All Nazis are evil” is a sweeping and uneducated generalization. The Nuremburg trials were successful at giving justice to many Nazis that were absolute monsters however the rest was a witchhunt. They put to death military commanders who were no where near the death camps. Just generals of the Weirmacht that thought they were doing the right thing by serving their country.
It should also be known that the Weirmacht were disgusted with the atrocities they knew about. They actually filled grievances that went to Hitler himself. They filled report after report of violations of Human rights and unethical and criminal behavior. Soon Hitler grew so angry he replaced the Weirmacht General with an SS one who the complaints went directly to so they could be torn up.
Early on in the war, some of the the SS Honour Brigades that knew about the atrocities commited by the Einzatsgruppen were secretly leaking information to Jews in Germany to warn them they probably needed to flee immediately.
The Luftwaffe were not war criminals and most of them had no knowledge of the camps. They were simply pilots defending their country. So you call them Nazis and therefore, criminals. An uneducated sweeping generalization.
It sould also be noted that their was only one news source in the Reich. A certain camp was liberated by the US. The mayor and his wife of a nearby town hung themselves because they could not believe murder was happening so close to their home and they had no idea.
This is a great example of how close these camps were in certain cases, to other military units and civilians and their being no knowledge of what was going on. I don’t believe in “guilt by association” in these cases. Men were drafted into the military and were fighting a war. That is not a crime. What the Einzatsgruppen units did was a crime. What SOME of the SS units did were war crimes.
I have yet to know what Goerrings charges were at the Trials of Nuremburg. He was the Luftwaffe leader and had no part in the holocaust. His men commited no crimes other than flying planes against the Allies. My theory is, he was sentanced to death because he stould up for hitler in court. He could not believe that Hitler would have ordered “The Final Solution.” He simply could not believe it and he told the courts that he believed it was done without Hitlers knowledge. He was working with the Allies to help smooth things over when Germany surrendered. His death sentance has no legitimate charge other than being a high ranking Nazi officer. He should have been charged as an art theif. Which should not warrant an execution.
I HATE how the Russians “labor camps” (ie: concentration camps) and all their horrific atrocities are completely overlooked because they were our allies. Anyone that says “All Nazis are evil” is completely uneducated on the 3rd Reich. It’s not that simple. Why don’t to just call all black people the “N word” becuase of the violence black gangs are guilty of?
Get your history down and read all sides. Find the truth and stop making predjudice remarks about anyone affilated with the Nazis (IE: AMOST EVERY GERMAN) After all, doesn’t that make you as predjudice some of them were?
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The book: The Blonde Kight of Germany, a story of Erich Hartmann, goes into detail concerning the Soviet labor camps. Six million German POW’s would never return home from Siberia. This is a largly forgotten fact.
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@Rakeman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.
thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.
You um, do know that, the Communists under Stalin killed much more civilians in mass murder and extermination purges than the Nazis ever could have killed? A modest estimate puts the death toll at 20 million, but estimates range from 12 million to 40 million it seems. Yet, “all Nazis are evil” but Communist Russia ain’t so bad. Makes perfect sense… since the victors write history.
That is very insightful Rakeman. My opinion exactly. “All Nazis are evil” is a sweeping and uneducated generalization. The Nuremburg trials were successful at giving justice to many Nazis that were absolute monsters however the rest was a witchhunt. They put to death military commanders who were no where near the death camps. Just generals of the Weirmacht that thought they were doing the right thing by serving their country.
It should also be known that the Weirmacht were disgusted with the atrocities they knew about. They actually filled grievances that went to Hitler himself. They filled report after report of violations of Human rights and unethical and criminal behavior. Soon Hitler grew so angry he replaced the Weirmacht General with an SS one who the complaints went directly to so they could be torn up.
Early on in the war, some of the the SS Honour Brigades that knew about the atrocities commited by the Einzatsgruppen were secretly leaking information to Jews in Germany to warn them they probably needed to flee immediately.
The Luftwaffe were not war criminals and most of them had no knowledge of the camps. They were simply pilots defending their country. So you call them Nazis and therefore, criminals. An uneducated sweeping generalization.
It sould also be noted that their was only one news source in the Reich. A certain camp was liberated by the US. The mayor and his wife of a nearby town hung themselves because they could not believe murder was happening so close to their home and they had no idea.
This is a great example of how close these camps were in certain cases, to other military units and civilians and their being no knowledge of what was going on. I don’t believe in “guilt by association” in these cases. Men were drafted into the military and were fighting a war. That is not a crime. What the Einzatsgruppen units did was a crime. What SOME of the SS units did were war crimes.
I have yet to know what Goerrings charges were at the Trials of Nuremburg. He was the Luftwaffe leader and had no part in the holocaust. His men commited no crimes other than flying planes against the Allies. My theory is, he was sentanced to death because he stould up for hitler in court. He could not believe that Hitler would have ordered “The Final Solution.” He simply could not believe it and he told the courts that he believed it was done without Hitlers knowledge. He was working with the Allies to help smooth things over when Germany surrendered. His death sentance has no legitimate charge other than being a high ranking Nazi officer. He should have been charged as an art theif. Which should not warrant an execution.
I HATE how the Russians “labor camps” (ie: concentration camps) and all their horrific atrocities are completely overlooked because they were our allies. Anyone that says “All Nazis are evil” is completely uneducated on the 3rd Reich. It’s not that simple. Why don’t to just call all black people the “N word” becuase of the violence black gangs are guilty of?
Get your history down and read all sides. Find the truth and stop making predjudice remarks about anyone affilated with the Nazis (IE: AMOST EVERY GERMAN) After all, doesn’t that make you as predjudice some of them were?
props mate
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Thanks buddy. :-) (if you were talking to me that is)
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The ussr would not give. Because there would always be partisans.
Think about this if China took over DC would we just quit NO!!!
It’s almost the same thing. -
@testguy:
The ussr would not give. Because there would always be partisans.
Think about this if China took over DC would we just quit NO!!!
It’s almost the same thing.That is a good point.
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This is a VERY open-ended question, as it would ultimately come down to a couple of Major factors:
1. Only if Hitler does not get involved in strategic decisions.
2. Only if Hitler does not get involved in production
3. If we are talking JUST Germany vs. Russia, then it would stalemate for some time, possibly long enough for the V-2’s to evolve and decide the matter. But the Russians were learning quickly, using German strategies effectively themselves by 1943. If the Rockets aren’t developed soon enough, which I would imagine they wouldnt be, it comes down to Russia putting out the massive amount of T-34’s that they did, along with sheer manpower….Germany can only lose so many infantry, and is limited to how many tanks it could produce, let alone their desperate need for oil.
4. Lend-Lease would be a factor too.
My guess is the Russians win around 47 because of manpower and industrial capabilities.
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“Could Germany have beaten Russia if it was ONLY fighting Russia?”
Then the Germans would have to find a fancy way around neutral Poland.
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Hmmm. Germany vs Russia, Great topic.
In my humble opinion, Germany would have Crushed Soviet Russia Hands Down.
Remember Stalin had to be Hospitilized for 3 days after germany invaded. This was because he was in Shock. He couldn’t believe that his (at that time Ally Germany) had invaded.
Lets say Germany waits until 43 or early 44 to open up hostilities, and up until this time acts as a Ally to Stalin. Stalin would have seen no need to Build up hi MilitARY during this time, and still would have been caught off guard just like in 41.
Only this time Germany has all of her Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, Wheremacht, and SS Divisions to focus on Russia.
Waiting until 43 or 44 means that russian winter would not have been such a huge factor.Technology for Germany would far surpass anything that the Russian would have. What I mean is, Germany started WWII in 1939, Now had Germany had 4 more years of “peace”, The V-2 Programs would have been far beyond what they were historically at, Germany would have a Very Large Jet Aircraft Fleet, And the German Z plan would be Nearly complete.
But the Biggest Issue would still be, Could Hitler and his Cronies be able to Play the role of Liberators over Conquerers.
Probably Not, But even if they played the role of Conquerer, as long as the germans treated the Russian Civilians Better then what Stalin and his Regime did, The russian Populous would still side with Germany.In my Opinion Germany’s Biggest Down Fall was the Halocaust. over 8 Million lives wasted, That could have been 4 million more soldiors and 4 Million more production workers for the war Effort. The Nazis Blaming their WWI Loss on the Jews is Just wrong and stupid. Most German Jews wanted to be German first and then Jewish.
Germany lost WWI Because of the 4 million Doughboys sent “over There” IMHO.
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Good post Deaths Head 420. Hitler was the main problem when you bring up the interesting topic of “Liberators over conquerors.” That’s what most Russian tows viewed them as in the beginning but the Enzestsgruppen units quickly ruined relations with their exterminations and other atrocities. Those units wore a uniform almost identical to the SS with the main difference being the collar patches were not the same and they were not allowed an honor band around the sleeve.
To almost any civilian, this mistook them for the “SS” who, in the beginning, were more than willing to treat the Russian civilians fairly because of the help they were giving. The Luftwaffe felt the same way. Hitler and Himmler however were behind the continuation of war atrocities. Hitler would have died at some point soon and if he was assasinated things could have been far different.
That’s all speculation but in my opinion, if a man like Rommel would have been successor to the Fuhrer after an assasination, the German war effort could have gone a completely different direction since Rommel was a pragmatist and in no way anti semtatic. Hitlers successor Goerring was also not anti-sematic and under the influence of his wife who had many Jewish friends, secretly helped jews out of Nazi occupied territory and spared the lives of some in custody.
I believe the real problems withing the Reich affecting the war effort were Hitlers and Himmlers diabolical insanity and the lack of a cognitive, centralized leadership between the Weihrmacht, Navy, Luftwaffe and the SS.
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Good post Deaths Head 420. Hitler was the main problem when you bring up the interesting topic of “Liberators over conquerors.”
I believe the real problems withing the Reich affecting the war effort were Hitlers and Himmlers diabolical insanity and the lack of a cognitive, centralized leadership between the Weihrmacht, Navy, Luftwaffe and the SS.
Very true–when you look at how it was Hitler who personally directed the Panzers from Group Centre to turn north to Leningrad when they were less than 200 miles from Moscow (actually closer to Moscow than Leningrad) and lose almost a month making the 600 mile round trip. Had they just pressed onto Moscow they would have beaten many of the Siberian reinforcements to their positions and would likely have taken Moscow. With the delay to Leningrad and the subsequent rain and snow along with the reinforcements, when they returned, they just didn’t have the time or materials.
The lack of unified leadership is what gave the decisions for the Luftwaffe to make over 400 types of planes during the war compared to 1/4 of that for the US–too much infighting for position by their accomplishments rather than accomplishing winning the war.
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No contest, if you look at the amount of material sent to the U.S.S.R. by brittan and the United States which would not have been received and shift German production and manpower to the East and Moscow would have fallen quickly.
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This is a VERY open-ended question, as it would ultimately come down to a couple of Major factors:
1. Only if Hitler does not get involved in strategic decisions.
2. Only if Hitler does not get involved in production
Unlikely as it was Hitlers -job- to be involved in strategic and production planning decisions.
The problem I see is more that Hilter got invloved in operational level decisions, which is what he should have kept his dirty political mitts off of.
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I think there are too many added bits.
I voted ‘no’ on the understanding that ALL OTHER THINGS were equal. As in the war did start in June 1941 and continued pretty much as it did in the east anyway. The vast bulk of the Wehrmacht turned east in 1941. Easily enough to do the job (on paper).
The Luftwaffe too contributed the great majority of its men and machines to the effort. And as we know - for months the Russians dissolved under a hail of German fire and steel. A closely related question is - could the Germans have won in 1941 while at war with the UK? The answer is probably (in terms of capturing moscow) yes.
But as has already been pointed out - capturing a capital is far from (outside of boardgames) winning a war. This is partly why IMO you should be able to continue placing units in A&A as long as you have factories - irrespective of capitals. Though I realise that would potentially make the game utterly different - if not infinite!
Napoleon captured Moscow. He lost the war. Russia with her tens of millions of people would have been almost impossible to suppress entirely - partisan activity remained high even despite brutal SS action. An obvious tactic to limit partisan action would have been the demarcation of the great Reich in protectorates with self-government, but that would be far too liberal for the Nazis. As has been said before though - such a move could have enabled Germany to quickly gain economically from the Ukraine and other productive areas - and with teh supported of their new ex-soviet ‘citizens’ solidify their new border with the new (much reduced) USSR.But back to my point at the beginning - all else being equal - I think the German war in Russia was mismanaged which is why they lost it - and those mistakes - based on racial hatred (death squads, and subjugation of ‘inferior’ slavic people) and political ego (obsession with Leningrad & Stalingrad) would have been made anyway. Eventually leading to the loss of the war. By the time the troops arrived at Moscow they were exhausted and their machines were worn out. One thing not covered in A&A - just how worn out a tank is when in one flick of your hand you ‘blitz’ it the equivalent of 1000 miles over (at best) shoddy roads.
Also - I have to say that my feelings about Nazi evil are this:
The Nazis were evil. People who supported the movement, who had read Mein Kampf and had seen jews and other ‘disappear’ from their neighbourhoods knew what the tennets of the movement were -and celebrated war as the ultimate expression of a race’s struggle for survival. The ideology was evil. People who perpetrated it, and allowed it to go on were doing evil.BUT
Not all Germans were nazis. Though in one way or another most Germans contributed to the war effort because it was an irresistable force in their country. Many in the Wehrmacht retained a centuries old Prussian tradition of loyalty to the state and its leader, and considered themselves non-nazis in that they were non-political.
What I think is the uncomfortable truth though - is that many (if not most) Germans were Nazis - and had they won, they wouldn’t all be denying it. The interesting question that this raises (another thread entirely) is - could this not have happened anywhere? Just how much evil is there in all of us - ready to come out when the conditions seem right.
My grandmother refused to teach Eugenics at school. In England. In the 50s.
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