My last game: maybe a balance solution?



  • Hi all.

    Yesterday I played my last game with Europe, since long time I don’t.

    We tried a small and very simple “home rule” to make A&A:Europe more balanced. This is the rule: in every turn, Germany will receive 2 submarines for free and USSR will receive 4 infantry for free, UK and USA get nothing. During the “Place new units” phase of the turn, this free units can be placed in territories with an IC on it or in their adjacent Sea Zones, of course.

    This way, Germany can resist longer to Allies sea-offensive, and USSR too can resist more turns, even against the German tank-rush. The game last more time and seems more balanced, I will continue to test this rule.

    What do you think about it?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I think thats not good at all:

    Germany gets 1 free sub and additional cost 12 for 2 or one for 7, so 3 will be 19
    Germany cant build more than 4 tanks per turn
    German tanks are at 3/3
    All others are 3/2
    Give German the option of SS units 1 per game costs 8 at 4/4
    fighters at 10
    Soviets get lend lease equal to one D6 of free IPC each turn, but they must be non-infantry types.



  • @Sergente_nella_neve:

    Hi all.

    Yesterday I played my last game with Europe, since long time I don’t.

    We tried a small and very simple “home rule” to make A&A:Europe more balanced. This is the rule: in every turn, Germany will receive 2 submarines for free and USSR will receive 4 infantry for free, UK and USA get nothing. During the “Place new units” phase of the turn, this free units can be placed in territories with an IC on it or in their adjacent Sea Zones, of course.

    This way, Germany can resist longer to Allies sea-offensive, and USSR too can resist more turns, even against the German tank-rush. The game last more time and seems more balanced, I will continue to test this rule.

    What do you think about it?

    I’m not a fan of promoting big stacks of Infantry, personally.  But I understand what you are trying to do and I’ve also tinkered with such ideas.  I’ll try to post them later.

    Mot



  • I use LHTR rules for Europe, and also I am trying to give more infantry to URSS. Maybe two free subs are too much for Germany. I would like to playtest in order to evaluate.

    @ Imperious Leader.

    What it means:

    Give German the option of SS units 1 per game costs 8 at 4/4

    only one units for each game?



  • I’m searching for rules not too far by the “usual” rules of AA Europe. So I prefer that attack and defence values for all units should rest the same for all Powers in game. Nothing 3/3 tanks, nothing Revised Rules, nothing special “SS” units, just a simple free “boost” to balance the game.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Give German the option of SS units 1 per game costs 8 at 4/4

    only one units for each game?

    sorry i meant one unit per turn. One SS unit can be built each turn, not game.



  • Thanks IL!



  • @Sergente_nella_neve:

    I’m searching for rules not too far by the “usual” rules of AA Europe. So I prefer that attack and defence values for all units should rest the same for all Powers in game. Nothing 3/3 tanks, nothing Revised Rules, nothing special “SS” units, just a simple free “boost” to balance the game.

    Is your perception that you need to balance the game to make it eaiser for Germany, or make it easier for the Allies?

    Along the lines of a boost, I’d be inclined to, each turn:

    Give Germany a free Submarine deployed adjacent to Germany (go wolf-packs!)

    And, give Germany a free Infantry in Tunisia (Italian/German reenforcements)

    Give the UK a free Artillery each turn in Egypt (reenforcements from the suez)

    Give Russia a free Armour in Siberia each turn (reenforcements from the Russian eastern front and relocated factories…Russia historically out-produced Germany in tanks by a wide margin)

    Give the US a free Infantry each turn (the Draft!..you cant give them much more without unbalancing the game).

    I’d also remove the “Soviet Patriotic War” rule that has US and UK fighters getting magically converted to Russian fighters.  No UK/US units are allowed on Russian territories.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats a net +1 IPC advantage to allies, i figure he wants to address the German advantage of tank rollers.

    the only direct way to do that is deal specifically with GERMAN TANKS, rather than free subs and free pieces.

    Perhaps Soviet tanks defend at 3, and Germany can only build tanks limited to her factories, so one or two tanks per factory will limit her production, and cut against that. Also, perhaps the Soviets get conscript rule: Roll D6= # of Soviet infantry that can be built at 2 ipc that turn, and the roll is performed each turn, unless the Soviets take originally controlled German territories ( including finland/norway)



  • @Imperious:

    Thats a net +1 IPC advantage to allies, i figure he wants to address the German advantage of tank rollers.

    the only direct way to do that is deal specifically with GERMAN TANKS, rather than free subs and free pieces.

    Perhaps Soviet tanks defend at 3, and Germany can only build tanks limited to her factories, so one or two tanks per factory will limit her production, and cut against that. Also, perhaps the Soviets get conscript rule: Roll D6= # of Soviet infantry that can be built at 2 ipc that turn, and the roll is performed each turn, unless the Soviets take originally controlled German territories ( including finland/norway)

    That depends on how many points you think nixing the Soviet Patriotic War is worth.  I’d imagine more than one.  A lot of games I’ve played were won or lost before the US/UK even seriously contested Europe, because they just dumped scores of IPC’s worth of air-power into Russia.  Not fun seeing Russia with 10 fighters and a million Infantry.  It creates a very static front.

    The bonuses I laid out try to give each side the option to do something different.  Germany wants to contest the Atlantic longer, then buy more subs to compliment the freebie.  Both Tunisia and Egypt become prime targets to prevent the other side from getting the bonus.  This can create a more interesting North-Africa theater.  Russia with a slow-but-steady build of Armour leads more battles.

    That all being said, what are “tank rollers”?  Also, I don’t disagree that all this does necassarily balance, its just opens the options a bit perhaps?

    I’ve also considered a rule that states you must have a unit in a territory to collect IPCs from it.  This forces both sides to dedicate some amount of units to every territory or forfiet the income.  It also prevents Germany from doing the cheap pull-everything-from-Europe-and-rush-Russia trick.

    Mot


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    To easily win AAE, Germany buys a turn of infantry follow up with turns and turns of tanks and you add invasion of Leningrad on G1 and proper technique, and the Soviets cant defend and lose. Its a common perception that the game is busted based on no refutation offered to counter. The axis are stronger in this game as long as you stick to that plan.

    So to simply address ONLY the exact issue which is specifically limitations on German tanks, would prove the most direct solution. The great Patriotic rules should really be called “lend lease” but tweeking them or giving free subs , free artillery, free infantry, seems to me like too many changes to as the OP stated “whats needed to just balance it out”

    However, i agree with you that Id prefer lots of additional tweeks to make the game different, but i am just saying the guy who posted is looking for a minimalist approach.



  • Ah yes, I’m familiar with “the Stack” approach.

    Germany effectively ignores the rest of the game, pulling all units from W and S Europe into the Eastern front.  Germany makes no efforts in the Middle East and North Africa.  Germany send its wall of Infantry and Artillery forward, and then uses its later Armoured blitzing to catch up to the “Stack” to provide the offensive punch.  Russia on the otherhand is typically setup for a defensive fight with lots of Infantry.  It’s suicide to send Inf VS Inf without the Armour (and to some extent Artillery) so they can’t counter-attack the invader.  As long as Germany can execute its assualt of Moscow on turn 5 or 6 then they have a much higher than 50% chance of victory every time.  If that time frame lengthens then the econmic drain from lost territories in W Europe, and N Africa start to shift the advantage back to the Allies and of course every turn Russia has to build up its defense helps Russia.

    So here are some changes to try to address the Stack:

    1.  To collect income from a territory, it must have a unit in it.

    Purpose:

    This prevents Germany from very-unrealistically pulling every unit on the map into Russia.  If they do so, the lost income would greatly reduce the number of tanks Germany can send in later.

    This also encourage both sides to fight smaller skirmish battles instead of just have two large stacks, because there is a benefit to clearing a territory even if you cannot take it.

    2.  All Tank movement is reduced to 1 when within the Russia (Red territories).  The Russian territories were vast, and the terrain included vast swamps and marshes.  The famed Russian winter also prevented the Germans from making to most of their armour.

    Purpose:

    This simply slows down the German advance as they penetrate deep into Russian soil.  It slows down the reenforcements of those waves of all Armour from reaching the front, affording Russia an extra turn or two.  This effect Russia as well, of course, but they start with far less Armour.

    Those two I imagine would reduce the Stack success rate without otherwise breaking the balance of the rest of the game too much.  Personally, I’d still add on the other options I posted, to enhnace the other theaters of the war, but that’s just me 🙂

    Mot



  • Mot, have you played with your additional rules yet? They look sound, and I am really keen to try them out. Especially the rule with one arty from suez, the tank from the east, the infantry from the draft, and the sub for the wolf packs. These are rules that don’t adjust the attack and defense capabilities of the units, whilst at the same time adding a nice historical touch to the game. Anyways I’ll be sure to tell you how I go when I try these rules out next.



  • I haven’t played in ages, unfortunately.  We experimented with different rules to fix “the Stack” problem back 5 or 6 years ago when the online club “A&A Europe Members Club” was very active.  I don’t think anyone in those test games ever tried the one I posted…not all of them anyway.

    Please let us all know how you make out!



  • General Steiner, if you want to try these out via play-by-forum, please let me know.  I haven’t played A&A Europe in ages…it might be fun!



  • Me and my friends try to balance it out (we think Germany needs a lot of help) by making German Subs cost 6 and having German tanks at 3/3.  We also are going to make new lend/lease rules so there’s none of this ‘10 russian fighters’ business too early.



  • Am I missing something? Why do some people still say that its not balanced out for Germany? If anything its not balanced out for the allies, unless that sending fighters to USSR strategy really works? Frimmel, Krieghund or someone of reputable character, please come to the rescue! This query has been dogging me on these forums.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Cobert:

    Invade Leningrad turn 1
    Buy all infantry, then all tanks for a few turns
    Germany cant lose the game with 3/2 tanks and subs at 8

    You can also try two turns of infantry followed by tanks on all the rest.

    Let the commies build these fighters.


  • Official Q&A

    Yup, that’s the strategy.  It’s really quite simple, and very effective.



  • @General:

    Mot, have you played with your additional rules yet? They look sound, and I am really keen to try them out. Especially the rule with one arty from suez, the tank from the east, the infantry from the draft, and the sub for the wolf packs. These are rules that don’t adjust the attack and defense capabilities of the units, whilst at the same time adding a nice historical touch to the game. Anyways I’ll be sure to tell you how I go when I try these rules out next.

    You might also want to use the idea of requiring a territory to have a land unit on it in order to collect the IPC.  I have been using something similar in A&A Pacific, whereby if the Japanese remove all military units from an area, not only do they loose the IPC from that area, but because of the existence of resistance movements, the Allies regain control of the area, a free Allied infantry piece is placed in the area, and the Allies immediately begin to collect the IPC.  This would be very effective in the Netherlands/Belgium, Eastern France, France, and Vichy France.



  • @Krieghund:

    Yup, that’s the strategy.  It’s really quite simple, and very effective.

    If it is that simple and that effective, then the game has a serious problem with game balance.



  • Hmm don’t know if I’ll get around to playing Europe any time soon. I went to kinkos the other day and printed off Axis and Allies Europe Advanced, so ima give that a whirl and see how it goes. I can’t wait to play with Italy 🙂 You can really unhinge the Russian front in Advanced. Germans attack the first line of the defense, and then Italian tanks can blitz into the next line of territory. So the Russian player has to think about defense in depth! Also I’d love the idea of, Germany goes all out against Russia and Italy spends all its money tieing down allied convoys, and the allied fleet in general. I was thinking along the lines of a bombers off the west coast off france attacking with subs. Anyways I will tell you all how the game goes when I play it next 🙂


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