Retreating from a combined amphibious assault and land attack. Is it possible?

@morvill said in Submarine & Fighter attack, Fighter DD defense - Retreat Rules:

To me, it seems like because the 2 defending fighters have a valid target, that being the 1 attacking fighter, this condition is not met. And it does not specify “All units of a particular type”, so we can’t say the destroyer was “all units” in any sense. I don’t think I’ll see any disagreement on that. Thus, another round of combat will ensue unless the attacker chooses to retreat. The submarines cannot submerge at any other point than step 2 of the General Combat Sequence, thus for the subs to remain in the sea zone, another round of combat must persist, otherwise they must retreat “with” (the fighters remain the sea zone as part of their retreat) the fighter. Yet, if the attacker chooses to press, the subs do not have any valid targets for the next round of combat. Again, they could choose to submerge, but you could also surprise strike at “no units”, which to my knowledge is neither allowed nor disallowed by the rules, at least in this context.

Correct. It doesn’t matter whether or not all units on both sides have a valid target, only that at least one on each side does. If the attacker decides to press, all units will remain in the sea zone, even those that don’t have a valid target (the subs). If the attacker decides to retreat, all attacking units must retreat. As you say, the subs can submerge in the next combat round, but the only reason for them to do so would be so that they can remain in the sea zone if the attacker decides to retreat at the end of that round, as they are effectively out of the fight anyway.

Not sure if this is relevant, but per the rules:

Sea zones are either friendly or hostile. Friendly sea zones contain no surface warships (this doesn’t include submarines and transports) belonging to a power with which you are at war. Hostile sea zones contain surface warships belonging to a power with which you are at war. (The presence of a surface warship
belonging to a power on the other side with which you are not yet at war doesn’t make
a sea zone hostile.) pg. 8

The friendly/hostile state of the sea zone has no bearing on combat. That is relevant only to movement.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37883.0

@Gargantua:

If your sub fails, and the other sub survives you must retreat.

Even if the attacking sub doesn’t sink the enemy’s sub, the transports can still do debarkment.
It needs only that the other sub submerge.

@Young:

… but 100 transports defending against 1 attacking sub are all toast within a single combat round… right?

Yes, because transports on defense can’t retreat.  That’s the huge difference.

Thanks!

Guys,

––Just to add to your answer a bit. ‘Kreighund’, the rules guy, basically said that in order to CONQUER an Allied teritory, there must be a ‘COMBAT’. What that in essence means is that the teritory must have been previously conquered by an Axis power.
----If the Allied territory still has the same ownership after having it’s Capital subjugated,…you are simply ‘Re-inforcing’ the territory for the current owner.

Tall Paul"

@Gargantua:

SO what if I start in a zone, that someone just built a ship in?  My transport Cannot load?

That’s correct, unless you declare war on that power in the same turn.

@Gargantua:

Also, can transports leave a zone where they started with a hostile ship, and then come back with loaded units from another zone? That would seem legal to me.

Yes.

I am all for sinking the UK fleet on G1 and build the Aircraft Carrier.  Then mostly I threaten to sink the rebuilt Royal Navy and Americans.  My Germany never wants to spend another dollar in the Atlantic.

Sometimes them darned Brits do something silly and entice me into taking London even though we would rather kill Russians and capture Russian territories.

Maybe not killing the British Battleships makes it more likely England will do something silly like build tanks in South Africa UK1.  I would rather not deal with all them UK boats that quickly.