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Sub vs planes w/w out DD: HR to limit subs-fodder and to keep equity


  • 2017 2016

    It always appear to me that the presence/ absence of an attacking DD can have a large impact on the capacity of the defender to use Subs, or not, as cheap-fodder for his warships against a group mainly compose of attacking airplanes.

    It seems weird that adding a unit such as DD in his fleet can become an hindrance to the attacker if the ennemy has many Subs which it can be use as fodder to protect other costlier warships.

    I have the impression that this single addition can patch this little aberration:

    Planes cannot hit any subs (even when DD is on their side) if their is any other elligible casualties. (Said otherwise, Subs are chosen last by planes.)

    So, in any battle of planes (+ other type of units) vs subs+warships, the presence/absence of destroyer will not change the way the subs casualties can be picked against owner’s unit.

    Planes will be mostly hitting surface vessels and other planes,
    surface vessels can hit both planes, warships and subs,
    and subs can hit any ships but no plane.

    Still as OOB, planes needs DD to attack subs. It will happen when their is only Subs remaining against DD and planes.

    Is it a real problem with Sub and planes when DD is present or not?

    Does this HR fix the problem?


  • 2017 2016

    Hi Knp,
    once about a much more complex HR on Subs you reply this post:

    @knp7765:

    I really like your idea. A bit long and kind of complicated, but a much better way to treat subs. I especially like your idea that aircraft can attack subs (even without DD or CVE) but only attack @ 1 (or @ 2 with DD or CVE). Never liked the idea of 1 DD and 10 planes chopping up a sub stack with only the risk of losing the DD. Plus I like that they still get a sort of Surprise Strike even with ASV present.

    I came up with a much simpler house rule where defending subs can submerge after the first round of battle even with attacking destroyers present. It would also apply to attacking subs, I just can’t imagine a reason for them to submerge. Destroyers still cancel the surprise strike ability and allow planes to hit subs, and subs can’t travel through a SZ that has an enemy destroyer in it. However, I think I might just add your idea to my house rules. I agree with you, subs shouldn’t be just so much fodder.

    I’m wondering about the effect on Subs warfare of combining both the Open Post HR and your HR:

    1. When planes can hit Subs (because of DD combining arms effect), Subs casualties are chosen last by plane.
    2. And Subs can submerge after the first round of battle even with attacking destroyers present.
      Do you allow submerging Subs a defensive roll @1 at the end of the first round?

    Does your HR have a real impact on the survivability of subs?

    Do you think both HRs can work together?

    Is there some disastrous effect?

    Is it still fair for both Air units, Destroyers and Subs?

    I’m puzzled and would like to implement the two in my next game because I think both HRs enhance somehow the Subs warefare and interaction with other units:

    Allowing subs to submerge after first round against DD gives a better feel of the elusiveness of Subs in both Atlantic and Pacific.
    Instead of slaughtering them with a massive air fleet and a few DDs.

    Allowing Air units with DDs to hit Subs only when their is no other eligible enemy’s units, will reduce the possibility to use Subs as cannon fodder.

    What tells your experience of play with your Sub HR?

    What do you think of this combination of HR?


  • Customizer

    @Baron:

    Hi Knp,
    once about a much more complex HR on Subs you reply this post:

    @knp7765:

    I really like your idea. A bit long and kind of complicated, but a much better way to treat subs. I especially like your idea that aircraft can attack subs (even without DD or CVE) but only attack @ 1 (or @ 2 with DD or CVE). Never liked the idea of 1 DD and 10 planes chopping up a sub stack with only the risk of losing the DD. Plus I like that they still get a sort of Surprise Strike even with ASV present.

    I came up with a much simpler house rule where defending subs can submerge after the first round of battle even with attacking destroyers present. It would also apply to attacking subs, I just can’t imagine a reason for them to submerge. Destroyers still cancel the surprise strike ability and allow planes to hit subs, and subs can’t travel through a SZ that has an enemy destroyer in it. However, I think I might just add your idea to my house rules. I agree with you, subs shouldn’t be just so much fodder.

    I’m wondering about the effect on Subs warfare of combining both the Open Post HR and your HR:

    1. When planes can hit Subs (because of DD combining arms effect), Subs casualties are chosen last by plane.
    2. And Subs can submerge after the first round of battle even with attacking destroyers present.
      Do you allow submerging Subs a defensive roll @1 at the end of the first round? No. They have the choice to either submerge or shoot back, NOT both.

    Does your HR have a real impact on the survivability of subs? Yes in some cases. However, I still have my original problem with a single DD and a bunch of planes attacking a stack of subs. Even with my house rule, the subs still have to survive the first shot of the attackers. If there is 1 DD and 5 bombers attacking a stack of 4 - 5 subs, it’s very likely all the subs will get wiped out.

    Do you think both HRs can work together?Not sure. It seems like two very different solutions to the same problem. Still, I imagine elements of both could be included. Like cutting down the attack factor of planes against subs along with allowing subs to submerge after the first round of combat even with enemy DD present.

    Is there some disastrous effect?Possibly for the defender. Say an attacker attacks with a bunch of destroyers and planes against a fleet of expensive capital ships and subs. The attacker would have to designate so many planes to go after the subs (at a lower attack value) and the rest to go after the capital ships (at regular attack value). If the subs are allowed to submerge, that leaves ALL attacking planes to go after the capital ships. Then again, that is totally up to the defenders choice.

    Is it still fair for both Air units, Destroyers and Subs?I think so, particularly if you do away with the “air units can attack subs without a DD present”. This keeps a little of the ASW power for Destroyers and keeps your subs from being pounced on by planes at every turn. If your enemy wants to get rid of your sub menace, he/she is going to have to invest in some destroyers.

    I’m puzzled and would like to implement the two in my next game because I think both HRs enhance somehow the Subs warefare and interaction with other units:

    Allowing subs to submerge after first round against DD gives a better feel of the elusiveness of Subs in both Atlantic and Pacific.
    Instead of slaughtering them with a massive air fleet and a few DDs.

    Allowing Air units with DDs to hit Subs only when their is no other eligible enemy’s units, will reduce the possibility to use Subs as cannon fodder.

    What tells your experience of play with your Sub HR?We have had very good experience with it. It doesn’t solve all the problems but gives subs a much better chance, thus enhancing their worth.

    What do you think of this combination of HR?I don’t like the “must be chosen last” idea. That is a transport rule and should remain with transports only. I know you want to avoid using subs as cannon fodder, but I still believe it should be left up to the defender which units he/she chooses to lose. Take my example above; say the defending fleet is 10 submarines and 5 full carriers being attacked by several destroyers and a bunch of planes. Lets say also that the defending fleet is not by any of their own territories (meaning if the carriers are sunk, the planes can not land anywhere). If you disallow any plane hits to the subs, the defender will have to take the first 10 plane hits on either the 5 carriers (only defend @ 2) or 10 fighters (strong defend @ 4). So, if you take out all your fighters, then you are left with 5 carriers defending at a weak 2. Odds are they will get slaughtered next round and maybe get 1 or 2 more hits. It gets even worse if you take out the weak defending carriers. Then whatever attacking forces survived your counter attack can simply retreat and all you are left with is a few surviving subs and 10 crashed planes. If the defender is allowed to sacrifice his/her subs, then maybe they can save some of the carriers and fighters.
    Granted, I know there are many variable outcomes to this battle, but I’m making a point.

    I hope that helps you out Baron.

    One other thing, if you are the attacker and want to hit an enemy force consisting of subs and more expensive warships and your force is mostly planes, your solution is simple. DON’T bring your destroyers to the battle. Then the defender’s subs will not even be an issue. They will just float around watching their big ships get blasted by your planes.


  • 2017 2016

    Thanks for your explanations.
    When I quoted you, I picked all you said but I have no intent to bring back the “planes can attack subs by themselves without DD, @1”.
    I focused only on your HR allowing Submerge to Subs even when DD are present and my HR about limiting planes attack against Subs even when DD are present.

    On the Submerge rule, I think I will phrase it this way:
    DD blocks the subs submerge ability only for the first round.

    This imply that on the first round, Subs can roll @1 on defence, and at the beginning of the second round, all subs can now submerge in the surprise phase for subs just before the main combat resolution phase.

    DD still block the surprise strike of subs forcing them to attack in the main phase.

    It will give a little lever to sub and will not introduce something outside the actual subs phase mechanics (as it is with a shoot or submerge at the end of the round).

    The submerge after submitting to initial attack give more chance of survival to subs. Increasing a little their elusiveness quality.

    But as you put with the 5 Bombers+1DD example, it seems that a bunch of subs have little survivability against this tactics and some hits from the subs on defence can also be lost.
    I also see it as a defect in the rule which good players exploit.
    The only way to counter it is by isolating each Sub unit in a different SZ.
    Forcing the attacking player to split DDs and planes in smaller groups.

    Is their a way to fix it? IDK.
    Giving a different and lesser attack value to planes against subs makes regular battle with a mixed type of units with and without DD against warships+subs overly complex.

    I’m really wondering if a simple fix to that is actually possible.


  • 2017 2016

    @knp7765:

    I’m puzzled and would like to implement the two in my next game because I think both HRs enhance somehow the Subs warefare and interaction with other units:

    Allowing subs to submerge after first round against DD gives a better feel of the elusiveness of Subs in both Atlantic and Pacific.
    Instead of slaughtering them with a massive air fleet and a few DDs.

    Allowing Air units with DDs to hit Subs only when their is no other eligible enemy’s units, will reduce the possibility to use Subs as cannon fodder.

    What tells your experience of play with your Sub HR?We have had very good experience with it. It doesn’t solve all the problems but gives subs a much better chance, thus enhancing their worth.

    What do you think of this combination of HR?I don’t like the “must be chosen last” idea. That is a transport rule and should remain with transports only. I know you want to avoid using subs as cannon fodder, but I still believe it should be left up to the defender which units he/she chooses to lose. Take my example above; say the defending fleet is 10 submarines and 5 full carriers being attacked by several destroyers and a bunch of planes. Lets say also that the defending fleet is not by any of their own territories (meaning if the carriers are sunk, the planes can not land anywhere). If you disallow any plane hits to the subs, the defender will have to take the first 10 plane hits on either the 5 carriers (only defend @ 2) or 10 fighters (strong defend @ 4). So, if you take out all your fighters, then you are left with 5 carriers defending at a weak 2. Odds are they will get slaughtered next round and maybe get 1 or 2 more hits. It gets even worse if you take out the weak defending carriers. Then whatever attacking forces survived your counter attack can simply retreat and all you are left with is a few surviving subs and 10 crashed planes. If the defender is allowed to sacrifice his/her subs, then maybe they can save some of the carriers and fighters.
    Granted, I know there are many variable outcomes to this battle, but I’m making a point.

    I hope that helps you out Baron.

    One other thing, if you are the attacker and want to hit an enemy force consisting of subs and more expensive warships and your force is mostly planes, your solution is simple. DON’T bring your destroyers to the battle. Then the defender’s subs will not even be an issue. They will just float around watching their big ships get blasted by your planes.

    On this last aspects, I see that you don’t see Subs fodders as big problem.
    Your example is precisely what I want to decrease as a tempting optimized units building for player: making mostly attacking fleets with a lot of Subs and some big warships with few or no DDs.

    My HR is phrased like the rule on Transport but it is, in essence, a very different case. You will throw DDs in the battle against many Subs+ full loaded carriers (or BBs) and that won’t radically change the flow of casualties vs planes only attacks.

    The defending surface ships (carriers+planes, for example) will remain targeted by attacking planes, while attacking DDs can serve as a cheaper fodder against both defending Subs and carriers+planes.
    This means simply that, against planes, capital ships need DDs as cover first, and Subs are not a good protection.
    (It is a way to be nearer the historical accuracy.)

    This is what I intended to create with my HR.
    In fact, defending subs can still be used as fodder (for the capital warships) against attacking DDs casualties.

    I acknowledge that you don’t like this kind of outcome, that’s ok.
    It is probably not a so big hole in the rules about subs and planes as you telling me.


  • 2017 2016

    About this problem:

    Does your HR have a real impact on the survivability of subs? Yes in some cases. However, I still have my original problem with a single DD and a bunch of planes attacking a stack of subs. Even with my house rule, the subs still have to survive the first shot of the attackers. If there is 1 DD and 5 bombers attacking a stack of 4 - 5 subs, it’s very likely all the subs will get wiped out.

    I may have a way to limit the slaughter on the subs.

    First, it is clear that neither your house rule (because, with enough planes (A3 and A4) and 1 single DD, it only takes 1 round to destroy a bunch of subs units) nor mine (because, in this situation, there is only subs left as eligible units, so every hits from plane can be allocated to defending subs) have a great impact on this problem.

    Maybe you can add this unusual subs escape capacity:
    Any hit by a sub under an air attack, which can not be allocated to DD or any other ship, negates 1 hit against a sub unit.
    Said otherwise, any successful defensive hit @1, made by any sub, usually lost (because there is no available target)  saves 1 sub unit which would normally be taken as casualty.
    How to play it in game: is that any unused “1” diced make disappear a successful attacking dice.
    Then just have to add up the remaining successful attacking dices to know how many subs are destroyed.

    Example 1, 1 DD and 5 Bombers roll 5 hits against 5 Subs.
    First case, subs defence is zero hit @1, then all subs are sunk.
    Second case, subs defence result is only 1 hit @1, then all subs are sunk and the DD is sunk.
    Third case, subs defence result is 2 hits or higher, up to 5 hits, then 1 up to 4 subs are considered saved and able to submerge on the second round (or the end of the first according to HR).

    Example 2, 1 DD and 5 Bombers roll 1 hit against 5 Subs.
    First case, subs defence is zero hit @1, then one sub is destroyed.
    Second case, subs defence is only 1 hit, then one sub is destroyed but the DD is sunk.
    Third case, subs defence result is 2 hits or higher, up to 5 hits, then no sub are destroyed.

    Example 3, 1 DD and 5 Bombers roll 2 hits against 5 Subs.
    First case, subs defence is zero hit @1, then 2 subs are destroyed.
    Second case, subs defence is only 1 hit, then 2 subs are destroyed but the DD is sunk.
    Third case, subs defence result is 2 hits (one still sunk the DD, the other negated 1 hit), then only 1 sub is destroyed.
    Fourth case, subs defence result is 3 hits or higher, up to 5 hits, then 5 subs are considered saved and able to submerge on the second round (or the end of the first according to HR).


    Another different way (less in favor of the sub) is to treat defensive overkill “1” rolled by subs against a few DDs and a lot of planes like this:
    Each hit made by subs on defence which can not be allocated to 1 attacking unit (because there is only aircraft left) gives 1 immunity against destruction to 1 Sub unit.
    So 1 sub overkill (of DD & other ship) means at least 1 sub unit will survive the first round (regardless of the attacker’s dices results).
    2 subs overkill means 2 subs units get immunity, etc.

    How to play it in game: just put back on the board as many subs units as there is overkill subs defensive rolls @1.

    I think this second version is simpler to apply in game.

    Do you think it can be the little twist to give a better chance of survival to subs and enhancing them just that much?



  • Why not used an rules like this?

    AIR SEACH PATROL.
    Fighter, light bomber and/or bomber can make an air search patrol.
    To do so, just place the airplane over the sea zone where the sub is located.
    Roll 1 die for each plane. On a roll of 2 or less, the airplane found the sub.
    The air search patrol is done and now you can attack.
    On  a roll of 2 or less, you sink a sub!
    After the attack, the surviving sub can retreat or submerged.


  • 2017 2016

    @crusaderiv:

    Why not used an rules like this?

    AIR SEACH PATROL.
    Fighter, light bomber and/or bomber can make an air search patrol.
    To do so, just place the airplane over the sea zone where the sub is located.
    Roll 1 die for each plane. On a roll of 2 or less, the airplane found the sub.
    The air search patrol is done and now you can attack.
    On  a roll of 2 or less, you sink a sub!
    After the attack, the surviving sub can retreat or submerged.

    Do you actually use this one in any of your game?

    In the present state, it is more a general principal and an incomplete house rule.
    It needs more details to be integrated in the OOB rule.

    Just an example of the questions/details which need to be solved:
    In the same SZ there is 2 Subs groups (UK+USA, for example), when a plane roll “2 or less” which group is found? Attacker’s choice ? Defender’s choice? Both group is found but casualty is defenders choice.

    What happens if you throw DDs in this SZ with the planes? Are they attacking before, after, simultaneously?

    If there is subs + warships in the SZ, (UKs Sub+ USA loaded carriers, for example) can the planes from the carrier can defend @4 against the Air Search Patrol?

    Do you treat subs group in a SZ as a separate fleet from other warships (UKs Subs + Uk loaded carrier) much like they were in 2 different SZ?
    So you can search and attack subs without attacking surface warships?

    If you have time, you can read some posts in this thread, you will find something nearer your idea.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32248.msg1208515#msg1208515

    The HRs presented here are much nearer the OOB rules mechanics (Subs are still part of larger fleet, can attack and defend with other warships, etc.), so there is a minimal change to an already complex set of rules about submarines. That’s the main answer I can tell.

    If you have more details on your HR, I’m all open.
    Air Search Patrol is interesting and, as I far as I experienced it with older version of A&A, playable. But rise many problems to match with the actual OOB Subs system rules.


  • 2017 2016

    @crusaderiv:

    Why not used an rules like this?

    AIR SEACH PATROL.
    Fighter, light bomber and/or bomber can make an air search patrol.
    To do so, just place the airplane over the sea zone where the sub is located.
    Roll 1 die for each plane. On a roll of 2 or less, the airplane found the sub.
    The air search patrol is done and now you can attack.
    On  a roll of 2 or less, you sink a sub!
    After the attack, the surviving sub can retreat or submerged.

    On this aspect of a more elaborate House Rule, I would add this:
    With the search on 1 or 2, you cut 1/3 of the probability of getting a hit on a sub.
    After this phase, you should kept the OOB attack value for simplicity: Fg A3, TcB A3-4, StB A4.

    If you still find this too high (even if it is virtually a 1/6 odds to hit subs [2/6x3/6= 1/6 to get a hit),
    The rule can be: [i]all planes roll a dice, if any one plane get a “1”, then all planes can make a regular attack on subs groups, if no plane get a “1” then no sub was found this round.

    2/6 to find x 2/6 to hit= 4/36 (1/9) less than 1/6 to kill a sub.
    1/6 to find x 3/6 to hit or 4/6 for StB = 3/36 or 4/36 (1/12 or 1/9 for StB)
    It is half than 1/6 to kill a sub per Fighter but each plane double the odds to find subs and increase the killing odds= 2 planes will be 1/6, 3 planes 1.5/6, 4 planes 2/6, etc.

    What odds do you find appropriate to hit a subs without the need of DD?


  • Customizer

    Another thought occurred to me regarding the problem of 1 DD and a bunch of planes wiping out sub stacks.
    How about a house rule where each destroyer can ONLY target 1 submarine for aircraft to shoot at, no matter how many aircraft you have.
    So, if you come in with 1 destroyer and 5 planes against a stack of 5 subs, only 1 sub will be in danger of being hit by the planes. However, ALL 5 subs get their defensive shot against that destroyer. Assuming the first sub is hit by the planes, the remaining 4 now can submerge from battle. Of course, if the destroyer is hit, then the subs don’t even have to submerge because the planes can no longer see them anyway.
    This way, if you want to go after a stack of 5 subs with a bunch of planes, you will still need 5 destroyers to spot them all.


  • 2017 2016

    @knp7765:

    Another thought occurred to me regarding the problem of 1 DD and a bunch of planes wiping out sub stacks.
    How about a house rule where each destroyer can ONLY target 1 submarine for aircraft to shoot at, no matter how many aircraft you have.
    So, if you come in with 1 destroyer and 5 planes against a stack of 5 subs, only 1 sub will be in danger of being hit by the planes. However, ALL 5 subs get their defensive shot against that destroyer. Assuming the first sub is hit by the planes, the remaining 4 now can submerge from battle. Of course, if the destroyer is hit, then the subs don’t even have to submerge because the planes can no longer see them anyway.
    This way, if you want to go after a stack of 5 subs with a bunch of planes, you will still need 5 destroyers to spot them all.

    If I follow you, it means that 1 DD+ 5 planes can only destroy up to 2 Subs max.
    Do you imply A) that DD have a designated target and all the planes have another one subs?
    Implying that if the DD miss, then only 1 sub can be destroy by all planes.

    Or B) just that once all 6 attack rolls made, up to 2 subs can be sink even if the DD didn’t get a hit?

    If B, then it would mean that each Destroyer unit (with any number of planes) can only search and destroy up to 2 subs per round.

    So 3 DDs+ 6 planes can destroy up to 6 subs, and doesn’t matter if all the 3 DDs get no hits and the 6 planes get them.


  • 2017 2016

    @knp7765:

    Another thought occurred to me regarding the problem of 1 DD and a bunch of planes wiping out sub stacks.
    How about a house rule where each destroyer can ONLY target 1 submarine for aircraft to shoot at, no matter how many aircraft you have.
    So, if you come in with 1 destroyer and 5 planes against a stack of 5 subs, only 1 sub will be in danger of being hit by the planes. However, ALL 5 subs get their defensive shot against that destroyer. Assuming the first sub is hit by the planes, the remaining 4 now can submerge from battle. Of course, if the destroyer is hit, then the subs don’t even have to submerge because the planes can no longer see them anyway.
    This way, if you want to go after a stack of 5 subs with a bunch of planes, you will still need 5 destroyers to spot them all.

    A few minutes before reading your post, I was thinking about something in the same line of thought of your post.  😮

    Limiting somehow the DD capacity to give all planes to attack all subs in a SZ per a given round can be a better solution than my previous posts because it is less aliens to A&A mechanics.

    The basic trouble is causes by this fact :
    Destroyer unit is the only unit, which can combine with an infinite number of an other units,
    giving this capacity to attack sub to any number of planes.
    All others units need a pairing match 1:1 to give or receive a bonus.

    If this limitation above is added, what do you do when there is some warships with DD+planes?
    Does the limit is still kept?
    Example: 2 DDs + 1 Cruiser + 6 planes vs  9 Subs.

    Can only 4 subs be destroyed?
    Even when there is 2 hits from the DDs, 5 from the planes and none for the cruiser?

    Or can only 4 subs be destroyed?
    Even when there is 5 hits from the planes and 1 from the cruiser, for example?

    Or 5 subs be destroyed?
    Because of 4 hits out of the 5 from the planes (allowed by the 2 DDs) + 1 hit from the cruiser (no limitation from DD since subs can target Cruiser)?

    Does the limitation ruled out this way:
    2 subs/DD unit + 1 sub/warship unit and all the hits can come from the planes?

    So the 5 hits of planes + 0 hit from DD and CA would destroy the 5 subs.

    Or just consider all the limitations apply only to DDs+planes as a group, then roll normally for all the other warships and apply any results as OOB?

    Or maybe, I misunderstood your HR, and I should have follow the A interpretation?
    So, since their is only 2 DDs, it means only 2 hits out of the 5 from planes (in the last example) will be taking into account.
    Assuming the 2 DDs and 1 CA missed, then it results in only 2 destroyed Subs.


  • Customizer

    I would say that each Destroyer can only target 1 sub for aircraft.
    If the Destroyer gets a hit, then ONE other sub can be targeted by aircraft.
    So, in your example above: 2 DD, 1 CA, 6 planes against 9 subs
    Maximum possible hits on subs for first round of combat would be 5: 1 for each destroyer (2), 1 for the cruiser (1) and 1 for each destroyer targeting for aircraft (2)
    After that, if the 9 subs managed to hit the 2 destroyers (or if you use my house rule that subs can submerge after first round even with DD present) then the surviving subs could submerge and combat would be over.
    So, basically if you sent 1 DD and 1 plane against 2 subs, and both got hits, then both subs could be sunk. However, if you sent 1 DD and 2 planes against 3 subs and all 3 got hits, only 2 subs would die. You could consider the 2nd aircraft hit as “insurance” for getting that 2nd sub.
    This just seems more fair to me. No more slaughtering stacks of subs with aircraft willy-nilly.
    Also, while subs only defend @ 1, a stack of 4 or 5 could very possibly get at least one “1” leaving the attacker with no destroyer. So attackers would realize it might not be worth sending just a couple of destroyers and a bunch of planes after a stack of subs if they could only get 4 of them and lose their destroyers. Losing a couple of destroyers might be worth it if you can wipe out 9 or 10 subs. Only getting a max of 4 subs and leaving your enemy with a still decent stack of subs wouldn’t be so good.


  • 2017 2016

    So, basically if you sent 1 DD and 1 plane against 2 subs, and both got hits, then both subs could be sunk. However, if you sent 1 DD and 2 planes against 3 subs and all 3 got hits, only 2 subs would die. You could consider the 2nd aircraft hit as “insurance” for getting that 2nd sub.

    What happen if sending 1 DD and 2 planes against 2 subs, but the DD miss and the 2 planes get a hit?

    Does both subs are destroyed?

    Or just 1 sub because this rule

    each Destroyer can only target 1 sub for aircraft

    just means that?


  • 2017 2016

    @knp7765:

    I would say that each Destroyer can only target 1 sub for aircraft.
    If the Destroyer gets a hit, then ONE other sub can be targeted by aircraft.

    This just seems more fair to me. No more slaughtering stacks of subs with aircraft willy-nilly.
    Also, while subs only defend @ 1, a stack of 4 or 5 could very possibly get at least one “1” leaving the attacker with no destroyer. So attackers would realize it might not be worth sending just a couple of destroyers and a bunch of planes after a stack of subs if they could only get 4 of them and lose their destroyers. Losing a couple of destroyers might be worth it if you can wipe out 9 or 10 subs. Only getting a max of 4 subs and leaving your enemy with a still decent stack of subs wouldn’t be so good.

    Your actual ratio is:
    1 DDs + 1 Fgs = 18 IPCs (08 IPCs can be lost: 31%), can destroy up to 12 IPCs (17%) worth of 2 Subs.
    A2+A3= 5 pts vs 2 pts (2D1)  0 subs: 33%, 1 sub 50%

    2 DDs + 2 Fgs = 36 IPCs (16 IPCs can be lost: 13%), can destroy up to 24 IPCs (3%) worth of 4 Subs.
    A4+A6= 10 pts vs 4 pts (4D1)  0 subs: 11%, 1 sub 34%, 2 subs 35%, 3 subs 17%

    3 DDs + 3 Fgs = 54 IPCs (24 IPCs can be lost: 6%), can destroy up to 32 IPCs (0%) worth of 6 Subs.
    A6+A9= 15 pts vs 6 pts (6D1) 0 subs: 4%, 2 sub 31%, 4 subs 16%, 5 subs 4%

    What happen if you use this rule instead:
    I would say that each Destroyer unit can target up to 2 subs for aircraft. In addition to the DD’s target.
    Whether or not the Destroyer gets a hit,  TWO other subs can still be targeted by aircrafts.
    For a maximum of 3 Subs destroyed/DD. But only 2 Subs if the DD miss.

    In game play, just add the number of attacking DDs multiply by 2, and it gives the maximum number of Subs which can be sink by the planes (rolled them separately).

    Two hits from the aircraft per DD is it already too much?
    2 DDs = 4 hits max/aircrafts group
    3 DDs = 6 hits max/aircrafts group

    1 DDs + 2 Fgs = 28 IPCs (08 IPCs can be lost: 42%), can destroy up to 18 IPCs (8%) worth of 3 Subs.
    A2+A6= 8 pts vs 3 pts (3D1) 0 subs: 17%, 1 sub 41%, 2 subs 34%
    2 DDs + 4 Fgs = 56 IPCs (16 IPCs can be lost), can destroy up to 36 IPCs worth of 6 Subs.
    A4+A12= 16 pts vs 6 pts (6D1)
    3 DDs + 6 Fgs = 84 IPCs (24 IPCs can be lost), can destroy up to 54 IPCs worth of 9 Subs.
    A6+A18= 24 pts vs 9 pts (9D1)

    I thought it is also more consistent with a minimal fleet taskforce:
    1 Sub, 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 2 planes, 1 BB.
    Since there is two planes on board a single carrier, both should be able to get a hit on subs.
    1 DD+ 1 CV + 2 Fgs = 44 IPCs vs around 7 subs (42 IPCs).

    You should be at least be able to destroy up to 3 subs in a given round with 3 units (DD, 2 Fgs) to provide a decent cover for carrier.

    Since, it is less restrictive than 1DD=1 Sub targeted by aircrafts,
    the 1 DD = 2 Subs targeted by aircrafts must be combine with your other HR:

    After that, if the 9 subs managed to hit the 2 destroyers (or if you use my house rule that subs can submerge after first round even with DD present) then the surviving subs could submerge and combat would be over.

    What do you think?



  • Just an example of the questions/details which need to be solved:
    In the same SZ there is 2 Subs groups (UK+USA, for example), when a plane roll “2 or less” which group is found? Attacker’s choice ? Defender’s choice? Both group is found but casualty is defenders choice.

    The attacker choose the sub UK or USA.

    What happens if you throw DDs in this SZ with the planes? Are they attacking before, after, simultaneously?
    The air search patrol = combat movement.
    If a sub is found = combat.
    (Air search patrol must be conduct before any other naval attack)

    If there is subs + warships in the SZ, (UKs Sub+ USA loaded carriers, for example) can the planes from the carrier can defend @4 against the Air Search Patrol?
    Fighter never defend sub but they can intercept the air search patrol plane.

    Do you treat subs group in a SZ as a separate fleet from other warships (UKs Subs + Uk loaded carrier) much like they were in 2 different SZ?
    So you can search and attack subs without attacking surface warships?
    Yes. In our game… sub are independent from the others warships.


  • 2017 2016

    @crusaderiv:

    Just an example of the questions/details which need to be solved:
    In the same SZ there is 2 Subs groups (UK+USA, for example), when a plane roll “2 or less” which group is found? Attacker’s choice ? Defender’s choice? Both group is found but casualty is defenders choice.

    The attacker choose the sub UK or USA.

    Do you treat subs group in a SZ as a separate fleet from other warships (UKs Subs + Uk loaded carrier) much like they were in 2 different SZ?
    So you can search and attack subs without attacking surface warships?

    Yes. In our game… sub are independent from the others warships.

    Very interesting…  🙂

    Did you post somewhere on the forum the details of your house rules on the Subs warfare mechanics and your Air Search Patrol?

    I first thought that independent subs was too complex but you give me hope.  😄

    I ask because I think there is much more details to get a complete picture of what you just explained in your two posts.

    For instance,

    You said attacker’s plane choose but what happen when there is an overkill?
    For example: 2 UK’s subs+ 1 USA subs.
    Let’s suppose 4 planes gets 3 hits.
    Does it means that either only 2 UK’s subs are busted or the 1 USA sub is?

    If it’s the case, I wonder why you didn’t House Rule “all the subs treated as a whole” instead.
    (It seems simpler to me.)

    I need further explanations, just another example of what is missing:
    How does it works for subs on attack? Are they independent also?

    Thanks for your answer,


  • 2017 2016

    @crusaderiv:

    If there is subs + warships in the SZ, (UKs Sub+ USA loaded carriers, for example) can the planes from the carrier can defend @4 against the Air Search Patrol?

    Fighter never defend sub but they can intercept the air search patrol plane.

    How do you treat the planes in the same SZ as Subs when defending against an Air Search Patrol?

    Does it works like a scramble?
    Defender choose how many planes will defend.
    Or is it automatic?
    So all planes defends against ASP?

    Does attacking planes have to split their numbers between subs and other warships in the SZ?
    Or they can take care of Subs first, then still attack the warships?
    (Because it is only a single round on subs. The remaining combat rounds can be apply against the warships.)

    Since the subs can submerge, the ASP is a single round attack, isn’t?

    I wait impatiently your answers, I’m very very curious since you said you played with you ASP HR.

    ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol  😄


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol  😄

    Use both in games  ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet  but it never attacks.
    Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol  for subs.

    ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time.

    I play same game.


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    Since the subs can submerge, the ASP is a single round attack, isn’t?

    Subs or Sub that survive first round of attack after ASP must
    retreat or submerge.


  • 2017 2016

    @SS:

    ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol 😄

    Use both in games  ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet � but it never attacks.
    Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol  for subs.

    ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time. I play same game.

    So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

    Why did you forbid a dual attack (Air Search with planes and Anti-Sub with DDs) against subs in the same SZ?

    If you only have 2-3 fighters and 2-3 Destroyers, against 5-6 Subs, it will help that
    Air Search attack first,
    then Anti-Sub attacks the surviving subs.
    No?

    Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?
    Does all subs can roll on defense or only 1/attacking DD or the subs don’t defend at all (since they are running silent, running deep)?

    Does Cruiser, battleship and carrier can be part of an Anti-Sub with DDs or just DDs?


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @Baron:

    @SS:

    ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol 😄

    Use both in games � ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet � but it never attacks.
    Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol � for subs.

    ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time. I play same game.

    So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

    No I don’t

    Why did you forbid a dual attack (Air Search with planes and Anti-Sub with DDs) against subs in the same SZ?

    Thats just the way rule is. Crus can answer that better.

    If you only have 2-3 fighters and 2-3 Destroyers, against 5-6 Subs, it will help that
    Air Search attack first,
    then Anti-Sub attacks the surviving subs.
    No?

    Its only air search or anti sub.

    Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?

    All destroyers roll a die to find subs then they roll another die to attack them.

    Does all subs can roll on defense or only 1/attacking DD or the subs don’t defend at all (since they are running silent, running deep)?

    Subs don’t defend and they must dive or retreat.

    Does Cruiser, battleship and carrier can be part of an
    Anti-Sub with DDs or just DDs?

    No just Destroyers and escorts.

    Crus, probably will correct anything I may have wrong.


  • 2017 2016

    Thanks for your reply.

    I play same game.

    So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

    No I don’t

    So, where and how do you play the same game?
    I’m puzzled.

    Do you play Global only ? or 1942.2? when using these HRs?
    Do you have to do a lot of changes to keep the balance?


  • 2017 2016

    Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?

    All destroyers roll a die to find subs then they roll another die to attack them.

    Sorry, I don’t understand.
    What happen if only 1 DD of a group of 3 DDs, for example, find subs during Anti-Sub Patrol?
    Does all the 3 DDs can roll an attack on the subs?
    Or only 1 DD can hope to destroy 1 sub?


  • 2017 2016

    I love house rules they add a little flair to the game. But, I am hesitant to adopt ideas that take the current combat  system in more of a tactical direction. Historically aircraft were the real sub hunters and really increased their success rate with the use of radar. DDs usually are reactive to a subs presense when the sub attacks something. Now the DD is a sub hunter. Per your example 5 SS vs. 1 DD & 5 bombers, those subs out by themselves instead of acting as fodder for my battle fleet are either threatening something or trying to draw your eyes away by sacrificing themselves. The use of needing a DD present might abstractly represent radar tech for those aircraft. Radar + aircraft = Big problems for subs. If I put 5 SS out by themselves within range of aircraft and DDs I hope it is deliberate on my part to draw your priorities for those 5 bmbs away from what I am worried about other than a dumb placement. War is hell. After the first shot is fired most battle plans can be thrown away and then you place your trust in morale,training and initiative.


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