How do you respond as UK to this german first turn?

[Guest]

This is a variant of a Caspian Sub strat that was previously discussed on the forum.

The short version to block it (I may miss 1 or 2 details)

1.  UK builds and AC, TRN and 2 INF.  Moves fleet to SZ6, palces new naval units in SZ6, lands existing FIGs on SZ6 AC.
        (Total UK fleet:  1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 2 TRN)
2.  USA sends 1 FIG, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM from EUS to UK (via TRN offloading from SZ8)
3.  Russia sends their sub to join the UK fleet in SZ6 (or to SZ7, depending on where the Med Fleet is, but most likely to SZ6)

Net Effect:
UK now has some good land defense (6 INF, 2 ART, 2 ARM, 1 FIG, 2 BOM, 1 AA)
Baltic fleet has to fight its way to UK, and cannot link with the Med Fleet since the Med Fleet cannot reach SZ6
Many German TRN’s are going to be sunk as fodder in the naval battle, preventing an immediate landing in London… at least not with enough force to crack UK’s defenders.
Med Fleet, if it moved into the Atlantic, is now in range of US ships to be sunk in US2.  1 DST, 2 TRN, 1 FIG, 1 BOM against 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 SUB.

By the end of Turn 3, with further naval/air builds by UK, and with second wave of US forces (2 more TRN, another DST, plust whatever AF and land units can be sent), the German fleets are pretty well gone, if not totally destroyed.

Meanwhile, with Germany diverting that much of their income West, Russia should be in Karelia, Belo and Ukraine, reducing Germany’s income by 7 IPC.  Germany is also kicke dout of Egypt, and should ahve lost Libya, and be about to lose Algeria (if not already lost).

So the gamble is…
Can Germany fight past a joint UK/USA defense of London in G2? 
If they fail, they are already down 25% of their income, plus the lost units that were built as Navy in G1 and are now sunk (plus their bid). 
Russia has solidified their posiitons in German territories.
US and UK both have land units staged forward to UK that only need TRN’s to start large scale landings anywhere from Western to Norway (includign Germany and Eastern sicne the baltic Fleet was sunk in the North Sea).

Again, I may have missed some specific details, but if the UK player is awake on UK1 and sees the threat (kind of hard to miss) and unless the US player is incompetant, Geermany will blow their navy, amd a nice chunk of their AF, for a gain of only killing some Allied Fleet, after which, the Allies will hve uncontested control of teh seas and skies in and around Europe.

[trihero]

I’m not sure I like Switch’s proposed naval block in SZ6. If the Germans go after it, the odds are about 90+% that the entire UK navy will be gone at no cost to the German airforce. Gonna be hard to rebuild all transports and defense. It does however prevent an invasion of UK, and potentially it could let the Russians advance an extra step that round since all the airforce will be sent west to attack the fleet instead of trade territories.

[Guest]

But with the Kreigsmarine toast (first from the German attack in SZ6, then from the US attack on SZ7 in US2), that leaves both US and UK open to build fleet.  And the US will already be able to send a DST and 2 TRN to SZ8 in US2, and the UK can drop another DST or AC and a TRN, making a rather tough target even for the massed Luftwaffe, which is only possible if ALL FIGs are in Western… which REALLY opens the door for Russia…

[squirecam]

@ncscswitch:

This is a variant of a Caspian Sub strat that was previously discussed on the forum.

The short version to block it (I may miss 1 or 2 details)

1.  UK builds and AC, TRN and 2 INF.  Moves fleet to SZ6, palces new naval units in SZ6, lands existing FIGs on SZ6 AC.
        (Total UK fleet:  1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 2 TRN)
2.  USA sends 1 FIG, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM from EUS to UK (via TRN offloading from SZ8)
3.  Russia sends their sub to join the UK fleet in SZ6 (or to SZ7, depending on where the Med Fleet is, but most likely to SZ6)

Germany has (for arguments sake) 6 fighters 2 subs, 1 Bomber that attack (26O vs 19D). German fleets can then NC and merge, as USA is stuck in SZ 8. Its better if 1-2 transports are fodder as well.

USA has 2 trans, DD and fighter and Bomber. Germany still has carrier, BB, fighters and DD and possibly a transport. USA cant kill that.

Where there is a will, there is a way. You cannot prevent the germans from merging if they want to.

Squirecam

[Guest]

Yes, you can.  You can actually prevent them from even being able to make a serious attempt at it.

I’ll let you figure out how
(there are actually 3 ways that I know of, all of them leave the Atlantic in sole possession of the Allies on Turn 3)

[Jennifer]

Don’t forget that free American Battleship comming into the Atlantic on Round 3.  That’s a huge boon to the Allies.

And personally, no idea if this is a good idea or not, I like to have an American Carrier group in the Atlantic as well.  I feel it gives me latitude to tell the limeys to piss off and do my own thing if I want too. (More like, Brits threaten northern europe, Americans southern europe/africa.)

[Aretaku]

@Jennifer:

And personally, no idea if this is a good idea or not, I like to have an American Carrier group in the Atlantic as well.  I feel it gives me latitude to tell the limeys to piss off and do my own thing if I want too. (More like, Brits threaten northern europe, Americans southern europe/africa.)

If I have extra money I can splurge on such a purchase, I will buy an Atlantic carrier with America…but I dislike splitting the Allied focus. I’m in a game right now, where Britain has JUST enough money to keep it’s four trannys full, while America has a good 3x3 shuck through Britain, which will be 4x4 turn after next.

We’re doing far more to aid our cause working together in the north that we were when America was focused on Africa.

Hell, RUSSIA did more to liberate Africa from the Germans than America did!  :-P

[Jennifer]

Yea.  America can easily fill 6 transports each round to England and 6 more from England to Europe if htey wanted.

Then agian, it’s just as easy to move units to Africa and shuffle in the med as it is in English waters.  The idea of direct reinforcement to Stalingrad is somewhat appealing to me.  Dump with Englsh in Lenningrad, dump with Americans in Stalingrad, dump with russians in west Russia

[Guest]

Continuous unit drops to Stalingrad requires 3 sets of TRNs for the US… one in the Atlantic, and one at each end of the Med so they can exchange positions and drop units every round.

To achieve that, you have to clear the Med, build all those TRN’s and their contents, get them in position, and protect them from the Luftwaffe.

Going to take a while to accomplish all of that…

[cdassak]

@ncscswitch:

1.  UK builds and AC, TRN and 2 INF.  Moves fleet to SZ6, palces new naval units in SZ6, lands existing FIGs on SZ6 AC.
        (Total UK fleet:  1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 2 TRN)
2.  USA sends 1 FIG, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM from EUS to UK (via TRN offloading from SZ8)
3.  Russia sends their sub to join the UK fleet in SZ6 (or to SZ7, depending on where the Med Fleet is, but most likely to SZ6)

I guess the UK TRN off Canada is prseumed dead, otherwise it would be 1bb 1ac 2ftr 3trn.

If the sz6 block is used Germany will probably forget London and sink the UK/Russian fleet + the 3 US ships in sz8. If they do their math they can end up with all their airforce and few boats intact.

[Guest]

Any surviving ships are subject to counter attack by the US, possibly even UK with their BOM for the portion o fhte fleet that does not include the BB.

Regardless, the Kreigsmarine is dead end of T2, as are future landings by Germany in Africa.

That preserves UK income and prevents the need for the US to go to Africa first.

And if the US can go straight to Europe rather than 2-3 loads of units dropped in Africa startign in US2, then it actually speeds up the Allied assaults on Germany…
UK and US build fleet together, and in a single turn can have a very strong fleet built in SZ8 that then starts to ferry troops to Norway, Karelia, Archangel, Eastern, Germany or Western the following turn.

Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe has been tied up in the West, leaving Russia to face only ground units.  Germany has already been kicked out of Africa, and German production is in the low 30’s, and falling…

[squirecam]

@ncscswitch:

Yes, you can.  You can actually prevent them from even being able to make a serious attempt at it.

I’ll let you figure out how
(there are actually 3 ways that I know of, all of them leave the Atlantic in sole possession of the Allies on Turn 3)

Instead of wasting time, lets cut right to the chase.

According to your build, you have 2 USA transports in seazone 8. UK has AC BB transports and USSR sub and fighters.

This force CANNOT block the fleets from merging. The German AC will not participate in combat, but will move to SZ7 in noncombat.

You have no blocker for the med fleet. (If you did, it could only be a DD, in which case a German Fighter+sub would attack it, or the USSR sub (same deal, but no sub in SZ6 then).

Now, you could place a transport in SZ 7. But that STILL wont prevent a merger. Subs can sail through a zone as if the enemy fleet was not there. So one sub attacks that transport, rest as above.

With that build, the german fleet still has options to attack and merge.

Squirecam

[trihero]

I think Switch is talking about making a massive block in SZ6, as well as a minor US block in SZ12. Germany doesn’t have the airforce to spare to take out both fleets. They aren’t going to merge, although they’re going to take a chunk of the Allied fleet out.

[Guest]

Tri has it correct, for 1 version of the block.

If UK/USSR are in SZ6, and USA is in SZ12, then you can;t just attack with AF and then NCM through to SZ7 (the only SZ where both the Baltic and Med fleet can reach).

What are other versions of the block?
USSR suicides into Baltic with FIGs on R1.  22% 1 hit, 27% 2 hits, 19% 3 hits.  Most common result:  1 TRN, 1 SUB dead, half of the starting Baltic Fleet.  That leaves you very little to get through SZ6 with in G2, even with your build.  And it reduces the offensive strike power of the Baltic Fleet (with a 2-3 TRN purchase G1) by 28%, as well as reducing the amount of fodder… and the number of ships that ultimately will end up in SZ7… IF the link is successful.  But you still have to get by that UK fleet in SZ6… 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 BB, 3 TRN…  And if you want your navy to survive to actually link, then you are losing AF in the attempt.  Otherwise, you have little to no navy left to link.

A third version…
UK consolidates their fleet in SZ7 on UK1.  USSR places their Sub in SZ6 on R2.  Now you cannot NCM your Baltic Fleet for the link-up, since the link-up has to occur in a combat zone (unless you win in SZ7).  Baltic fleet can’t reach because of the SUB.  And to even attempt the link, either an offensive ship from the Baltic or a FIG has to be used to kill or submerge the sub, reducing your combat power in the SZ7 strike.  Med fleet has to fight the UK navy alone (with Luftwaffe assistance) in SZ7.  Then of course, the US gets to counter with AF and their initial SZ10 fleet against whatever MIGHT have lived from the German Med Fleet in USA2, again before the link-up can be attempted.  And UK can still drop their new naval builds in SZ7 on UK2, meaning ANOTHER round of combat before the remnants, if any, of the German fleets can link up.

[Jennifer]

Switch:

Why in the world would Russia suicide their planes on R1?  Or for that matter, even on R2?

Or are you talking a strafe where you send the sub and 2 fighters in on R1 and retreat once your sub is killed?

[Guest]

Sub can;t reach in R1.

I am not saying it is a good idea.  I am saying that it is a means of blocking a German fleet link-up (or at least assisting in the process).  Though to be honest, if you are fairly certain your opponent is going to try the fleet link on G2, and you are going to do a hard-core KGF that lands in Europe hot and heavy early, then it may very well be worth the loss of those 2 FIGs.  A lot depends on what you know of your opponent, and how firmly wed they may be to that fleet link-up…

[squirecam]

@ncscswitch:

Tri has it correct, for 1 version of the block.

If UK/USSR are in SZ6, and USA is in SZ12, then you can;t just attack with AF and then NCM through to SZ7 (the only SZ where both the Baltic and Med fleet can reach).

What are other versions of the block?
USSR suicides into Baltic with FIGs on R1.  22% 1 hit, 27% 2 hits, 19% 3 hits.  Most common result:  1 TRN, 1 SUB dead, half of the starting Baltic Fleet.  That leaves you very little to get through SZ6 with in G2, even with your build.  And it reduces the offensive strike power of the Baltic Fleet (with a 2-3 TRN purchase G1) by 28%, as well as reducing the amount of fodder… and the number of ships that ultimately will end up in SZ7… IF the link is successful.  But you still have to get by that UK fleet in SZ6… 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 BB, 3 TRN…  And if you want your navy to survive to actually link, then you are losing AF in the attempt.  Otherwise, you have little to no navy left to link.

A third version…
UK consolidates their fleet in SZ7 on UK1.  USSR places their Sub in SZ6 on R2.  Now you cannot NCM your Baltic Fleet for the link-up, since the link-up has to occur in a combat zone (unless you win in SZ7).  Baltic fleet can’t reach because of the SUB.  And to even attempt the link, either an offensive ship from the Baltic or a FIG has to be used to kill or submerge the sub, reducing your combat power in the SZ7 strike.  Med fleet has to fight the UK navy alone (with Luftwaffe assistance) in SZ7.  Then of course, the US gets to counter with AF and their initial SZ10 fleet against whatever MIGHT have lived from the German Med Fleet in USA2, again before the link-up can be attempted.  And UK can still drop their new naval builds in SZ7 on UK2, meaning ANOTHER round of combat before the remnants, if any, of the German fleets can link up.

1. You stated that USA went to SZ8 to bring troops to London. I counted your DD in 12 and showed how to kill it.
2. The USSR sub in SZ6 DOES NOT stop the subs from sailing into SZ7. So its a med fleet + 2-3 subs
3. Using USSR fighters to counter a move which may never happen is a bad idea as others have said.

I stand by what I said. Germany CAN have a shot to link their fleets up with your build.

There IS a build which will deny it. It was not any of your 3.

Squirecam

[Jennifer]

Kay, Switch.  I thought you were endorsing that option as a good one.

Squire, you sure subs can sneak through enemy waters during combat/non-combat phase?  I thought subs were blocked just like carriers and battleships and destroyers and transports, etc.

[squirecam]

@Jennifer:

Kay, Switch.  I thought you were endorsing that option as a good one.

Squire, you sure subs can sneak through enemy waters during combat/non-combat phase?  I thought subs were blocked just like carriers and battleships and destroyers and transports, etc.

See Rulebook Page 32. Subs special ability is to treat hostile sea zones as friendly.

Squirecam

[JamesG]

@ncscswitch:

A third version…
UK consolidates their fleet in SZ7 on UK1.  USSR places their Sub in SZ6 on R2.  Now you cannot NCM your Baltic Fleet for the link-up, since the link-up has to occur in a combat zone (unless you win in SZ7).  Baltic fleet can’t reach because of the SUB.  And to even attempt the link, either an offensive ship from the Baltic or a FIG has to be used to kill or submerge the sub, reducing your combat power in the SZ7 strike.  Med fleet has to fight the UK navy alone (with Luftwaffe assistance) in SZ7.  Then of course, the US gets to counter with AF and their initial SZ10 fleet against whatever MIGHT have lived from the German Med Fleet in USA2, again before the link-up can be attempted.  And UK can still drop their new naval builds in SZ7 on UK2, meaning ANOTHER round of combat before the remnants, if any, of the German fleets can link up.

That isn’t going to block the merge, assuming Germany really wants to do it.  Don’t forget, the Russian screening sub will NOT block the Baltic subs from attacking SZ7.

Let’s assume Germany is down one fighter from the start, and staged their fighters in range on SZ7 (both reasonable assumptions) you have this in G2:

Germany:
Med BB, Sub, and TRN to SZ7
2 Subs from baltic to SZ7
4 Fighters and 1 Bomber to SZ7

1 Fighter to SZ6

Battles
SZ7: 1 TRN, 3 Subs, 1 BB, 4 Fighters, 1 Bombers VS. 3 TRNs, 1 AC, 1 BB, 2 Fighters
About a 97% chance of Axis win with most common result being the BB and all air survive.  About a 37-40% chance at least one sub survives too.  Germany can sacrifice some fighters if they really want some subs to survive.

SZ6: 1 Fighter VS. 1 Sub
100% chance the sub is dead or submerged at the end of combat, and the Fighter will always survive.

So in Noncombat the Germans can move the rest of Baltic fleet to merge in SZ7.  That’s either 1 DD, 1 AC, 1 TRN or 1 DD,  3-4 TRNs depending on which Naval strat Germany is going for.

So at the end of G2, SZ7 contains 1 BB, 1 DD, 1 TRN plus either (1 AC, 2 Fighters) or (plus 2-3 TRNs).  In either case a decent shot of plus one Sub as well.

In the first case that’s a dPunch of 19, count of 7 (21/8 with a sub).  The second (let’s assume Germany bought 2 TRNs for the Baltic in G1) is dPunch 10, count 6.  (Higher with more TRNs purchased G1 and/or with surviving subs).

The TRN force will get decimated by the US counter, assuming the US staged enough air in range on US1.  The AC force will probably defeat the US counter.  But if the Germans went for TRNs on G1, it may be better for them to attack the UK capital on G2 instead of attempting to merge.

But in any case this “third version” does NOT prevent the merge.  If you combined your third version with the US DD and TRNs moving to SZ12 in US1, THAT would prevent a merge.  Though it might also result in a lot of dead allied navy in G2.  To be fair, a lot of German navy and/or air would die as well if Germany did attack in G2.  I guess the question would then be, could Germany and Japan put enough pressure on Russia to crack them while the US and UK rebuild their infrastructure?