Allied counter to German fleet-unification


  • Dear AAR-player

    Simple question: What is the allied counter against a German try to unify the fleets and menace to take GBR? I have  posted an ABattleMap with the real situation I had in a game (sorry right now it seems not to be possible to post. I will try to post the file later). In the game I could win with GER2 after a very bad continuation by the Allied player who missed to defend GBR sufficiently.

    Abstract:

    • Standard Russian opening (f.e. combat WRU, UKR)
    • German Buys 1 AC, x inf
    • German combat: EGY with bid plus fgt plus bmb; Sz 13 with BB trn sub 2 fgt; UKR if needed, LEN, GIB with 1 inf,
    • German non-combat: Most possible units to EEU with at least 1 arm plus some inf plus 2 fgt in WEU (possible threat to GBR)
    • after GER1: Sz 5 (BAL): 2 sub, 1 trn, 1 dst, 1 AC, 2 fgt
    • after GER1: Sz 13 (WMD): 1 BB, 1 trn, 1 sub (GIB taken to avoid counter with UK-fgt)

    Wanted: Correct Allied Counter-Strategy  :?

    Thanks for replies !
    Stefan

  • Moderator

    I will typically allow the unification then use a UK/US 1-2 to kill it.

    For the UK I’ll probably buy 1 ftr, 1 dd, 1 sub (or maybe 2 ftrs, 1 sub), but I like having the UK dd for the Ger subs.  I think you need two rds of attack before retreating. (I’m not sure if you can get the Ind sz ftr in range - maybe if you buy an AC for UK on rd 2 for immediate placement.  Just make sure you kill that ftr so you don’t need to place in Sz 7).
    For the US I’ll buy an AC and 2 ftrs.

    UK can attack with 2 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb
    US can attack with 2 trns, 1 dd, 5 ftrs, 1 bom

    UK should be able to retreat with the BB after 2 rds leaving Ger with 1 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 bb (maybe the dd too).  The US should clear with about 2-4 planes.

    So on UK 2 you just buy a couple of trns should have support from retreated BB and then follow up with the US AC (bought on US 1) and now continue to go to Alg on UK 3.

    With the US AC, DD from Sz 20, and BB from Sz 55 you shouldn’t really need any more capital ships since you’ve probably killed 3 Ger ftrs (ukr on R1, 2 in sz 7) and can sail teh UK AC (and/or dd) from the Ind ocean around Afr and may even have the BB if you retreated to Sz 8 after the UK attack.

    I don’t know if this is the best option, but I like the idea of killing both the Med and Baltic fleet in Rd 2 so I don’t get in a prolonged buildup or have to chase them down if I block unification.  But you are subject to dice in that first stike though.  You are okay if get at least 4 hits and Ger gets 5 (even 6 but in this case you might lose the BB if you stay).  But anything worse and you might have to retreat after 1 rd and that puts a lot of pressure on the US to possibly finish them off.


  • As the Allies, for a G1 carrier build fleet/G1 Med fleet west:

    Depends on how I’m feeling; UK1 either build 3 fighters with UK and unite UK fleet northwest of London and use USSR sub to block G2 Med fleet invasion of London (UK does the usual UK1 stuff, so that’s 2 inf 1 art 2 tank 3-6 fig (built 3 fighters, started with 2 fighters, plus 1 US fighter) defending against 1 inf 1 tank 6 fighter 1 bomber at worst).

    Or I build 7 inf 1 trns or sub to defend London and again unite UK fleet northwest of London.

    US1 moves northeast of Eastern Canada.

    On G2, Germany unites fleet or it doesn’t, and lands fighters at either W. Europe or Norway or both.

    If Germany unites fleet and landed most fighters at W. Europe, then Allies build up northwest of UK with Allied fleet of 4 trns 1 sub 1 destr 1 btl plus optional UK2 carrier build.  Germany’s fleet is 2 trns 3 sub 1 destr 1 destr 1 battleship, but Germany’s air is out of range.

    If Germany does anything else, including non-fleet unification or Norway/W. Europe fighter split or E. Europe/W. Europe fighter split, then the Allies either move in if there’s the opportunity, or the Allies build up another turn southwest of UK (remember, this is if the Germans do NOT park mass fighters at W. Europe, so at most the German fleet is in range; not the bulk of the German air).

    Either way, the Germans are forced out of the W. Europe seazone.  If the Germans stay, the Allies hit with navy and air, Germany’s fleet dies.  If the Germans run, the Allies can drop to Karelia/Arch if the Germans ran to Med, or to Algeria if the Germans ran to Baltic/North Atlantic.  If the Germans attack the Allied fleet, the bulk of the German air is never in range (if the Germans beef up Norway fighters to stop Allied navy build northwest of UK, Allies build southwest of UK).

    If the Allies want, the UK can build air while US fleet moves ground to Brazil then Africa; this makes the early Allied Atlantic game far more passive, but when the Allies hit, they hit a lot harder.

    The Germans can step up aggression in the Atlantic slowing the Allied response by parking fighters on the G1 carrier, but if the Allies stay out of range of the bulk of the German air, they should be OK - meanwhile, with so many fighters out of range of Eastern Europe, and only 8 infantry built G1, Russia can stall for a bit longer than it otherwise might, even after losing a lot of Russian attack force at Ukraine on G1 counter.


  • @ DarthMaximus

    Thank you for your explanations!

    Do you leave the Allied ships in the first round safe from the German fleet (f.e. US in Sz1 and UK in Sz 2) or do you unify them in Sz 8 with reinforcing UK by US troops (not only fgt and bmb)?

    If you leave the Allied ships out of range of the German fleets in Rd 1, do you avoid a German 2 attack onto GBR by blocking the med-fleet with the Russian sub?


  • @ste:

    @ DarthMaximus

    Thank you for your explanations!

    Do you leave the Allied ships in the first round safe from the German fleet (f.e. US in Sz1 and UK in Sz 2) or do you unify them in Sz 8 with reinforcing UK by US troops (not only fgt and bmb)?

    No love.  >.>


  • @ste:

    @ DarthMaximus

    Thank you for your explanations!

    Do you leave the Allied ships in the first round safe from the German fleet (f.e. US in Sz1 and UK in Sz 2) or do you unify them in Sz 8 with reinforcing UK by US troops (not only fgt and bmb)?

    Oh yeah, and btw, I’m guessing unification at SZ 8. Germany max attacks with 1 sub 1 battleship 1 carrier plus 4 W. Europe fighters plus German bomber.  Allied defense max per DM strat is 4 trns 2 sub 2 destr 1 btl with London defended by US1 2 inf 1 art 1 tank drop from E. US to London.  Expensive.

  • Moderator

    Correctomundo.
    Sz 8 with US troops to UK.
    And as Bunnies points out, it gets expensive for Germany if they attack.


  • @Bunnies P Wrath

    Thank you for your reply!

    Only some minutes ago I saw your answer! I just didn’t analyze it til now but will do that as soon as possible!


  • One further question belonging this topic: How is it if Germany does not buy the carrier. This means that Germany did not spend any money in the sea but made the same attack with the med-fleet in WMD (and took Gibraltar). The attack on EGY is again only with the bid plus some air from Germany.

    How would you react? What are good counters in this case? Maybe the same moves as already mentioned? I would prefer to spend less money in the sea with UK in this case. The immediate attack against the German Baltic Navy is on the other side very very risky.

    Thanks for replies!
    Stefan


  • @DarthMaximus:

    For the US I’ll buy an AC and 2 ftrs.

    Stout reply, Darth.  I would add a note, however, that you may be better off with 2bmr instead of 1car 2ftr.  As you stated later in your post, you have likely ripped up the German airforce and you have killed the navy, so the UK 1btl and US 2des + Pac 1btl are almost certainly enough to protect the waters.  And having those bmrs banging away is nice to support ground attacks.

    @BunniesPWrath:

    No love.  >.>

    That’s because what you wrote was dreck.  Utter dreck.  I think I speak for all of us (and when I say “all of us” I mean even people not in this thread, even people who don’t play Axis and Allies, even people who can’t read), when I say we are all a little bit dumber for reading what you have written.  I have read more insightful mattress tags.  I have seen more brilliant strategies scribbled on a napkin with a crayon by a child trying to draw a rainbow pony.

    I’m just sayin.

    Peace ('cept for BPW)


  • @DarthMaximus:

    I will typically allow the unification then use a UK/US 1-2 to kill it.

    For the UK I’ll probably buy 1 ftr, 1 dd, 1 sub (or maybe 2 ftrs, 1 sub), but I like having the UK dd for the Ger subs.  I think you need two rds of attack before retreating. (I’m not sure if you can get the Ind sz ftr in range - maybe if you buy an AC for UK on rd 2 for immediate placement.  Just make sure you kill that ftr so you don’t need to place in Sz 7).
    For the US I’ll buy an AC and 2 ftrs.

    UK can attack with 2 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb
    US can attack with 2 trns, 1 dd, 5 ftrs, 1 bom

    I think what you posted is fine.

    To the OP, my answer would depend on what the Axis wants? Are they preventing an India IC? If so, the carrier did its job, so with DM’s build, why throw it to the wolves.

    If UK builds sea units, stay in SZ 5. Let the allies come to you. Your merge allows the allies to 1-2 punch you, and you lose Africa with no reinforcements.


  • @ste:

    How would you react? What are good counters in this case? Maybe the same moves as already mentioned? I would prefer to spend less money in the sea with UK in this case. The immediate attack against the German Baltic Navy is on the other side very very risky.

    If Germany bought no sea units for SZ 5, sink it. If you wipe, you still kill 36 IPC of units you must kill anyway, at a cost of 35 IPC.

    But usually you wont wipe, though you may lose 2 fighters. Im fine with 20 IPC loss, as it ends the baltic block option for Germany.


  • :roll:
    Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
    I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
    You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
    Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?

    On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted  :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love 😄


  • When i want to perform a German Fleet Unification, i use my bid for an extra sub in atlantic and sink the UK BB, transport and red sub right from the start ( 2 subs + Norway fighter+ bomber ).

    You should consider that in your response, you’ll see it gets rapidly hectic for the allies without that battlegroup.


  • @Crazy:

    :roll:
    Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
    I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
    You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
    Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?
     
    On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted  :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love 😄

    A G1 carrier helps plenty, as it delays the allies from landing a few turns.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @squirecam:

    @Crazy:

    :roll:
    Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
    I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
    You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
    Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?
     
    On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted  :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love 😄

    A G1 carrier helps plenty, as it delays the allies from landing a few turns.

    4 Artillery help more as it allows Germany to take Moscow before the British and Americans are set up to invade Europe at all. 😛


  • Thank you all for this lively discussion. I think that a suitable counter to this German move (no ships purchase and attack in WMD with BB, trn, sub and some air) is the purchase of 3 fighter for UK. Then collect US und UK ships in CEL (sz 😎 and groundtroops in UK. Then bring the Russian sub to AZO stopping the German med-fleet to enter the Atlantic ocean.

    Although I don’t like buying anything else than ships and inf playing this game (for axis side and allies side) I think that in this special situation the purchase of 3 fgt is legitim because it can be used against the German ships first and after against the German groundtroops. Last but not least it can be used for defense in MOS if really necessairy.


  • @Cmdr:

    @squirecam:

    @Crazy:

    :roll:
    Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
    I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
    You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
    Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?
     
    On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted  :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love 😄

    A G1 carrier helps plenty, as it delays the allies from landing a few turns.

    4 Artillery help more as it allows Germany to take Moscow before the British and Americans are set up to invade Europe at all. 😛

    Not 4 art, nor 1 bomb, not at least in KGF (as much, 5 inf). Here, Germany never has a chance of taking Moscow (only Japan), and rarely will take and conserve Caucasus. AC aids defense (not having to protect tons of territories from landings), but maybe it’s better at G2 (because you need tons of inf at G1).

    For KJF a AC can be offensive, because Germany will only have to face UK fleet, soviet sub and a token initial USA fleet. It can even force to shift to KGF.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I was just saying 4 Artillery, in my opinion, are better than 1 Aircraft Carrier.  Better still would be 10 infantry, fighter, IMHO.  Or even better, again in my opinion, 5 infantry, fighter, bomber.

    As for England, 2 bombers on UK 1 seem quite effective.  However, if Fleet Unification is an issue, have you considered Aircraft Carrier, Submarine, 2 Infantry?  This protects the SZ 8 fleet (Russian Submarine, 2 American Transports, American Destroyer, 2 British Transports, British Battleship, British Carrier, 2 British Fighters and a British Carrier) from a possible assault from Germany (5 Fighters, Bomber, Battleship, 3 Submarines, Transport, Destroyer - maybe 6 fighters and that’s assuming the SZ 5 fleet moved to SZ 6 or 7 on Germany 1.)


  • You all describe Fleet Unification as if the only thing Germany would build is 16 ipc of ships on the first round. I find that utopic at most.

    If you are gonna do fleet unification you make it worthwile. I’m repeating this, you sink UK BB, transport and red sub G1 with a sub bid…

    You also buy 40 ipc of boats in Baltic fleet : + 1AC + 3 transport

    Once you meet fleet G2, thats 1AC+2fgt, 1 BB, 5 transports, 2 subs, 1 destroyer. And thats one of the many combination of ships possible.

    Under thoses conditions, fleet unification is worthwhile and since the only thing UK1 have left is a lone transport off the shore of eastern canada, i find it ill advised for UK to spend in boats or fighters/bombers while facing an imminent 5 transport drop right from turn 1 ( ya, the med transport is also in range when UK start turn 1).

    I’d be really please to see UK build boats, fighters or bombers in thoses conditions. At that point as allies, you don’t ask yourself how i will counter that fleet but rather how i’ll prevent canadian shield while saving UK from amphibious invasion…


  • @Mazer:

    That’s because what you wrote was dreck.  Utter dreck.  I think I speak for all of us (and when I say “all of us” I mean even people not in this thread, even people who don’t play Axis and Allies, even people who can’t read), when I say we are all a little bit dumber for reading what you have written.  I have read more insightful mattress tags.  I have seen more brilliant strategies scribbled on a napkin with a crayon by a child trying to draw a rainbow pony.

    I’m just sayin.

    Peace ('cept for BPW)

    Unfortunately, your calling attention to my plan is inconvenient at this time.  By dumbing down the masses, I was going to be the only bunny on earth in position to take control of the World Order of Chipmunks during their planned uprising in 2011.  Sadly, now that you have taken pre-emptive measures, I must respond in turn and destroy you.

    P.S.  I don’t understand how you decoded our secret mattress tag communications scheme, nor do I understand how you clued in to our subliminal mind control crayon experiment.  But we will find answers to our questions, then the world shall tremble before the might of:

    BUNNIES P WRATH!

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Part of the problem with a submarine bid in SZ 12 or where-ever is that many players bid 7 IPC or lower to prevent such moves. (Also to prevent 3 Infantry to Ukriane and other gambits.)

    So let’s assume you do not have 2 Submarines in SZ 12 to use against SZ 2 and that you therefore cannot sink the SZ 2 fleet. (Even with two submarines, you have odds of success, but I’ve never seen the SZ 2 fleet actually get sunk.)

    From here, if you want a continued German Atlantic Navy, then I recommend you build Aircraft Carrier, Industrial Complex, 3 infantry on Germany 1.  (The Industrial Complex for W. Europe thereby allowing you to reinforce your fleets as needed without the need to sail to SZ 5 or SZ 14.)

    BTW, if Germany DOES get an 8 IPC Bid for a Submarine to hit SZ 2 with, Russia should take out Norway and ignore Ukraine.  This ends Germany’s threat to SZ 2. (3 infantry, armor, 2 fighters - lose a fighter, and build one on Round 1 to replace it.)


  • Well, if only to see Russia try to take Norway, i’ll buy that sub and kill that Russian Karelia landed plane fast 😛

    But thanks, this points me the need to not group the 2 subs together in my bid but rather place the sub bid next to Western Europe ( if placing it next to own territory is allowed, i think so at least) still in range. At worst if Russia succeed in Norway, you send the initial sub against lone UK transport and bring back the sub bid to Baltic to reinforce it.

    At that point i would only buy one more transport for baltic and start pounding Russia hard begining with Karelia fighter, swapping territories after that would cost them an arm and a leg and i prolly still have Ukraine which please me very much.

    But eh, i grant you that you did prevent fleet unification if you were playing me 😉 It’s just that the price you pay for it is kinda heavy.


  • @Corbeau:

    But thanks, this points me the need to not group the 2 subs together in my bid

    Most bid rules require that newly placed bid units be in a territory that already contains units belonging to that power.

    There’s a lotta fun stuff you can do if that restriction is lifted.


  • Well, your faster than i edited 😛

    I thought sea zone next to own territory was ok, anyways, if worst comes to worst, can still send both subs against USA destroyer and 2 transports. Probably will knock out the 2 transports and mess allies a bit.

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