G1 fleet unification, how does UK respond?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    As Germany, I am happy to see England decimate it’s fighter force taking out my submarines in SZ 5 even if it costs me a transport and destroyer to watch it.  England’s soon going to be reduced to less then 30 IPC income anyway, if they want to make the most use of 3 or 4 transports, that’s going to prevent them from building new fighters, that means I can defender my home territories lighter allowing more punch against Russia.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @newpaintbrush:

    @ankmcfly:

    Assuning no channel dash, would anyone consider simply buying a destroyer for Germany in R1 and putting it in Baltic? It would protect the the existing fleet, leave 4 bucks to spend on the ground. (As opposed to buying a carrier.) With most players using WE as an airfiled anyway, is the carrier neccessary if staying put?

    Potential GR1 buys:
    1 Destroyer (12)
    6 Infantry   (18)
    2 Armor      (10)
          or
    1 Destroyer (12)
    5 Infantry   (15)
    2 Artillery    (8)
    1 Armor      (5)

    If you build a destroyer, I build 3 UK fighters.  What’s Germany’s response then?

    I invade England.  Three fighters need ground units to be effective or they die too fast when Jerry hits the beach.

    http://aycu13.webshots.com/image/16972/2000756253184734775_rs.jpg
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=9678.msg201282#msg201282

    To be fair, this game had a 2 Transport build not a DD build.

    I don’t see G1 as a reasonable time for the Kreigsmarine to sortie but with a decent set of placements and rolls on G1, a G2 invasion of England is a very real possibility.  Even if it is blocked, the moves are not wasted since the Med fleet is still a fleet in being that threatens the entire Med and points into the Atlantic, while the Baltic Fleet operates the “swoosh” into Karelia/Norway to fend off those pesky US/UK “shuck-shuck” units.

    There is the small problem of not paying the infantry bill in Eastern Europe for G1 but I have yet to see a good G1/G2 offense in Russia that did anything besides chew up a lot of expensive (German) units.  Falling back as the Infantry Mechanic is built and pushed on G2 brings the Russian front closer to the supply centers and makes it more difficult for Russia to handle that second front that Japan is creating with the butcher knife in his back.



  • @Baghdaddy:

    @newpaintbrush:

    @ankmcfly:

    Assuning no channel dash, would anyone consider simply buying a destroyer for Germany in R1 and putting it in Baltic? It would protect the the existing fleet, leave 4 bucks to spend on the ground. (As opposed to buying a carrier.) With most players using WE as an airfiled anyway, is the carrier neccessary if staying put?

    Potential GR1 buys:
    1 Destroyer (12)
    6 Infantry  (18)
    2 Armor      (10)
          or
    1 Destroyer (12)
    5 Infantry  (15)
    2 Artillery    (8)
    1 Armor      (5)

    If you build a destroyer, I build 3 UK fighters.  What’s Germany’s response then?

    I invade England.  Three fighters need ground units to be effective or they die too fast when Jerry hits the beach.

    http://aycu13.webshots.com/image/16972/2000756253184734775_rs.jpg
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=9678.msg201282#msg201282

    To be fair, this game had a 2 Transport build not a DD build.

    I don’t see G1 as a reasonable time for the Kreigsmarine to sortie but with a decent set of placements and rolls on G1, a G2 invasion of England is a very real possibility.  Even if it is blocked, the moves are not wasted since the Med fleet is still a fleet in being that threatens the entire Med and points into the Atlantic, while the Baltic Fleet operates the “swoosh” into Karelia/Norway to fend off those pesky US/UK “shuck-shuck” units.

    There is the small problem of not paying the infantry bill in Eastern Europe for G1 but I have yet to see a good G1/G2 offense in Russia that did anything besides chew up a lot of expensive (German) units.  Falling back as the Infantry Mechanic is built and pushed on G2 brings the Russian front closer to the supply centers and makes it more difficult for Russia to handle that second front that Japan is creating with the butcher knife in his back.

    I was responding to a single destroyer buy in the Baltic and typical German first moves, not a 2 transport buy.  TOTALLY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS.  It’s like I said “Ketchup is good on hot dogs!” and you said “Ketchup on ice cream, wat kind of sicko are u?!”

    That is, I anticipate that WITHOUT a carrier, Germany will only be able to bring 1 inf 1 arm 4 fig 1 bomber.  That is, I anticipate that Germany will use two fighters for the Med or other land battles that will leave them out of landing range of Norway and/or Western Europe.  I also anticipate that Russia should have moved its sub to join the UK battleship and transport on Russia 1, allowing Russia to block the entrance of the Med on Russia 2 (although Germany can easily blow it up, it prevents the Med transport from being used against London.

    Even if the Germans used a slightly different move, UK should have 2 inf 1 art 2 tank 5 fighter 1 bomber 1 AA gun.  That’s plenty against 1 inf 1 arm 5 fig 1 bom, OR EVEN 1 inf 1 arm 6 fig 1 bom, which is really the absolute max that Germany should be able to bring to bear.

    SO, Baghdaddy, now that we have established what I was talking about, let’s move on to YOUR scenario.

    Before I go any further, let me point out that there are 2 UK fighters in West Russia, a UK tank and infantry in Eastern Canada, 4 German fighters and a German bomber hanging out, and 4 German transports off UK.  What was the UK player, blind?  Obviously the UK player didn’t reinforce London (moving units out, in fact), the Russian player didn’t block the Med battleship and transport, and, well, really, with four transports in range of London, you would think maybe the UK player ought to try to defend London a bit.  But judging by the surviving German ground units (1 inf 1 art 1 tank)

    Moving on -

    YOUR scenario has 2 transports in the Baltic.  Let us say that you are following standard Caspian Sub protocol.  So we will say that Russia put its fighters in the Caucasus, or wherever, just so long as they can’t reach London on Russia 2.  We’re also going to say that you bought 2 transports, 3 infantry, and 3 tanks (all placement in Germany), and moved the German fleet west to take Gibraltar, uniting with the German sub in the Atlantic and taking no losses.  Let’s even assume that you went Anglo-Egypt ultra-light with 1 inf 1 tank 1 bomber plus possible African bid units, so you could put more fighters in range of London.  Let us even say that you put six fighters in Western Europe.  Although a lot of assumptions are made here, none of it is by any means too far-fetched.

    So here we are, the Allied player knows that you’re trying to mess with London.  It’s like you put up a forty foot tall sign in the middle of the desert, doused it in gasoline, and set it on fire.

    That said, what can the Allied player do about it?

    There are a few different German threats.  1.  Invasion of London.  2.  Threat to the Allied Atlantic fleet.  3.  Infantry chain set up from Germany to Karelia threatening Russia.  All must be addressed simultaneously.

    The Mediterranean transport and battleship can be blocked by the USSR sub at the mouth of the Med.  This stops the battleship support shot and 1 inf 1 tank from reaching London.  The Allies still have to contend with 3 inf 3 tank 6 fighter 1 bomber, though.  If the US sends 2 inf 1 art 1 tank 1 fighter 1 bomber to UK, and the UK moves 1 tank from E Canada to UK, then the defending forces before UK builds anything are 1 AA gun 2 bomber 4 inf 2 art 3 tank 3 fighter.  Even without building anything, then, the Allies are quite well prepared to fend off the German invasion.

    Once the threat of the loss of London is answered, the question is what other lines of attack Germany has, and whether those lines of attack are costly to the proposed solution.

    Germany has a fleet of 1 trans 1 sub 1 battleship at Gibraltar, and has 6 fighters on Western Europe, and 1 bomber – let’s say in Libya.  If the US transports move as proposed, they must end up off the southwest coast of UK, which will be in range of the aforementioned German naval and air units.  Can the Allies defend against this threat?

    The Allied Atlantic fleet consists of 1 Russian sub (committed), 2 US transports, 1 US destroyer, 2 UK transports, and 1 UK battleship.  If the Allies consolidate their fleet as much as they can, they will then have 4 transports, 1 destroyer, and 1 battleship to fight off probable attack force of 1 trans 1 sub 6 fighters 1 bomber (resulting in probable loss of entire Allied navy at the cost of a couple of fodder German boats and a German fighter, or a loss of 68 IPC for 26 IPC).  To make a long story short, no matter what the Allies put in the water there, Germany can blow it up at relatively little cost.

    So since the Allies can’t respond to a German naval threat to the southwest of UK, the Allies shouldn’t put the bulk of their naval forces there.  That means that although the US can still send their transports east, those US transports will get blown up.  The rest of the Allied fleet will have to consolidate northwest of UK.

    The question now is, is two US transports an acceptable butcher’s bill to pay, if it frees UK up to make certain purchases?  Or should an alternative solution to G2 invasion of London be found at this point?

    Suppose the UK player purchased 3 fighters on UK and consolidated fleet northwest of UK.  Now what happens?  As it was, London was fairly safe (after considering possible AA gun casualties).  Now, London is that much more secure.  UK also has a fleet of 5 fighters 1 bomber.

    If Germany decides to unite its fleet, Germany will have 4 transports, 3 subs, 1 destroyer, 1 battleship.  But with UK navy northwest of London, the UK attack consists of 2 transports, 5 fighters, 1 bomber, and 1 battleship.  This is not a good fight for Germany.  Yet, if Germany does not unite its fleet, it has 3 transports 2 subs 1 destroyer in the Baltic, which easily get blown up by 5 fighters 1 bomber.  So Germany has to buy more Baltic navy, which means less units against Russia.  That’s what the 2 US transports purchase; I think it’s a good buy, considering the Mediterranean – Western Europe – Karelia navy-air force situation.

    That is to say, German fighters based in Western Europe can only trade Karelia with Russia, threaten the Atlantic, and fend off Allied moves into Algeria.  The German navy based at Gibraltar can only ferry units into Algeria, which means that Germany’s progress in Africa will be very slow, particularly if UK recaptured Anglo-Egypt on UK’s first turn (very likely).  But if either the fighters or the navy move away from their positions, the Allies are free to unite off the southwest coast of Great Britain.  Either way, Germany’s position is not enviable.

    Particularly, consider that the Allies basing off the northwest coast of UK can set up to ferry infantry into Archangel every turn.  If the Baltic fleet moves out, the UK navy AND air force can combine to beat the fleet up.  If the Baltic fleet doesn’t move up, the Allies just vomit infantry into Archangel.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Why the hell did you put ketch up on your ice cream???  😛

    One note was in this game the Russian sub did move down to block the Med fleet from joining the UK invasion.  The result was it got sunk by a fighter and the Med fleet moved up on NCM and landed its ground forces as reinforcements to an already successful landing.

    As for the giant flaming sign, it definitely is.  The problem is there is not really a good option for the US/UK other than to cover down on London.  This is the whole value of a “Kriegsmarine” strategy.  It slows down the “shuck shuck” while securing Med and Baltic territories from amphibious assault thereby allowing those ground units to move toward Russia or be elsewhere (UK or perhaps Africa).

    The G1 fleet attack fails to realize that a fleet in existance is more dangerous and threatening than one that has died gloriously in a battle.  By using G1 to set up multiple threats with the Kriegsmarine, the German player can force the US/UK team to worry about events other than what is happening in Russia.  If that effort delays the “shuck shuck” by two turns, it has paid for itself.  Those are two extra turns of japanese expansion and movement into Asia that Russia can’t defend against.  Giving Russia 2 or 4 extra infantry by falling back in G1 and G2 is a small price to pay for Japan being two spaces closer to Moscow.



  • @Baghdaddy:

    If that effort delays the “shuck shuck” by two turns, it has paid for itself.  Those are two extra turns of japanese expansion and movement into Asia that Russia can’t defend against.  Giving Russia 2 or 4 extra infantry by falling back in G1 and G2 is a small price to pay for Japan being two spaces closer to Moscow.

    SHUCKA SHUCKA SHUCK

    SHUCKA SHUCKA SHUCK!

    SHUCK UR BOOTY

    SHUCK UR BOOOOTY!

    To be more specific, I believe you’re talking about slowing the progress of the Atlantic transport chain of Eastern Canada to London / London to Archangel/Norway/Karelia/Eastern Europe or Algeria.  Yes, the transport chain is slowed a bit, but my thought is that when the Allied force DOES hit, it is much more flexible, and the Germans are forced to defend more territory, in response to the excess UK air.  Subsequent Allied progress is also quicker and harder to stop, with Allied air able to trade territories and reinforce held territories.

    I ain’t scared o’ ur two Baltic trannies.

    (hums Ghostbusters theme)

    555 2368

    I ain’t scared o’ no transport


  • 2007 AAR League

    You betta be a fearing da mighty Kriegsmarine or dey be a cumming to breaka yur h’ed!!!

    It is all about throwing the other player off balance with unexpected threats that encourage him to make exploitable errors.

    I figure anything Germany can do to shake up the set piece advance of the clockwork shuck shuck is a good thing.



  • My allied navy is bigger and badder than ur Kriegsmarine.  My allied air force is bigger and badder than ur Luftwaffe.

    Also, the Allied girlfriends have bigger boobs.

    Top THAT.



  • Notice that Bangcock is Japan controlled.

    'nuff said  :evil:



  • :roll: Wow, really good thread here. Very entertaining too 😄
      I too am looking for a good and resonobly inexpensive way to help the Baltic fleet survive a turn or two.
    So, I bought a sub with my bid and placed it with my sub in the mid-Atlantic. Combined with my bomber and the fighter from Norway I attack the re-inforced British fleet west of England. Kill that Soviet sub and their transport too, most of the time anyway. On G1 I buy the destroyer in the Baltic and say come and get it to the Britts.  😛
      I also buy a sub in the Med to block that pesky DD off of Egypt. The rest goes into Infantry and Artillary.
    I also attack the Gibralter BB with my BB and 3 ftrs, and invade Gibralter.  I don’t expext to take and hold Egypt anyway, so I leave it for G2, after I can bring more troops to Lybia. Now the Russians can’t block my med fleet from joining the baltic fleet, the British could, but it will cost them more than it would me and that is positive in any game. The Americans are forced to build more expensive capital ships, and the british have to rebuild their navy too. This really slows down the old Shuck-Shuck, buying Germany more time to build up against the Soviets. Not to mention, taking heat off of Japan should they have been contemplating a KJF strategy.
      All for a bid buy of a sub.  😮
    Well, it is something different anyway.  😐
                        :roll: Crazy Ivan



  • With no Bids G1 I buy a carrier, tranny, and 5 guys.  Carrier and tranny go in the Baltic. Land 2 existing fighters on carrier NCM after they make their attacks. Forces UK to buy land forces because I can use the carrier to bring an extra 2 fighters towards a UK main land attack plus 2 extra land pieces via G1 tranny purchase. If not 2 trannies helps to pound northern Russia or retake Norway.  I invite the UK to attack my navy with a carrier/2 fighters sitting in the water or take Norway. Germ fleet is big enough to destroy UK fleet if they move closer to attack Norway before turn 3 with no additional Germ Naval purchases. I use MED fleet/Bomber/Fighter to attack Egypt killing UK Destroyer in process to start into Africa. If you dont take egypt UK can bring India Fleet into MED UK1. Thats bad news.  Kill UK BB SZ13 using SZ8 Germ sub as fodder and 3 fighters. 5 guys get placed for G2 transport movements, 4 in Berlin 5th in Southern Europe. To address the original question I think the channel dash is a real bad Idea. It allows the UK to destroy German Navy turn 1 and link up its India-MED navy. If US and UK have free passage to Berlin with their Navies its over soon for Germany.


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