How do you respond as UK to this german first turn?

[Jennifer]

Don’t forget that free American Battleship comming into the Atlantic on Round 3.  That’s a huge boon to the Allies.

And personally, no idea if this is a good idea or not, I like to have an American Carrier group in the Atlantic as well.  I feel it gives me latitude to tell the limeys to piss off and do my own thing if I want too. (More like, Brits threaten northern europe, Americans southern europe/africa.)

[Aretaku]

@Jennifer:

And personally, no idea if this is a good idea or not, I like to have an American Carrier group in the Atlantic as well.  I feel it gives me latitude to tell the limeys to piss off and do my own thing if I want too. (More like, Brits threaten northern europe, Americans southern europe/africa.)

If I have extra money I can splurge on such a purchase, I will buy an Atlantic carrier with America…but I dislike splitting the Allied focus. I’m in a game right now, where Britain has JUST enough money to keep it’s four trannys full, while America has a good 3x3 shuck through Britain, which will be 4x4 turn after next.

We’re doing far more to aid our cause working together in the north that we were when America was focused on Africa.

Hell, RUSSIA did more to liberate Africa from the Germans than America did!  :-P

[Jennifer]

Yea.  America can easily fill 6 transports each round to England and 6 more from England to Europe if htey wanted.

Then agian, it’s just as easy to move units to Africa and shuffle in the med as it is in English waters.  The idea of direct reinforcement to Stalingrad is somewhat appealing to me.  Dump with Englsh in Lenningrad, dump with Americans in Stalingrad, dump with russians in west Russia

[Guest]

Continuous unit drops to Stalingrad requires 3 sets of TRNs for the US… one in the Atlantic, and one at each end of the Med so they can exchange positions and drop units every round.

To achieve that, you have to clear the Med, build all those TRN’s and their contents, get them in position, and protect them from the Luftwaffe.

Going to take a while to accomplish all of that…

[cdassak]

@ncscswitch:

1.  UK builds and AC, TRN and 2 INF.  Moves fleet to SZ6, palces new naval units in SZ6, lands existing FIGs on SZ6 AC.
        (Total UK fleet:  1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 2 TRN)
2.  USA sends 1 FIG, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM from EUS to UK (via TRN offloading from SZ8)
3.  Russia sends their sub to join the UK fleet in SZ6 (or to SZ7, depending on where the Med Fleet is, but most likely to SZ6)

I guess the UK TRN off Canada is prseumed dead, otherwise it would be 1bb 1ac 2ftr 3trn.

If the sz6 block is used Germany will probably forget London and sink the UK/Russian fleet + the 3 US ships in sz8. If they do their math they can end up with all their airforce and few boats intact.

[Guest]

Any surviving ships are subject to counter attack by the US, possibly even UK with their BOM for the portion o fhte fleet that does not include the BB.

Regardless, the Kreigsmarine is dead end of T2, as are future landings by Germany in Africa.

That preserves UK income and prevents the need for the US to go to Africa first.

And if the US can go straight to Europe rather than 2-3 loads of units dropped in Africa startign in US2, then it actually speeds up the Allied assaults on Germany…
UK and US build fleet together, and in a single turn can have a very strong fleet built in SZ8 that then starts to ferry troops to Norway, Karelia, Archangel, Eastern, Germany or Western the following turn.

Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe has been tied up in the West, leaving Russia to face only ground units.  Germany has already been kicked out of Africa, and German production is in the low 30’s, and falling…

[squirecam]

@ncscswitch:

Yes, you can.  You can actually prevent them from even being able to make a serious attempt at it.

I’ll let you figure out how
(there are actually 3 ways that I know of, all of them leave the Atlantic in sole possession of the Allies on Turn 3)

Instead of wasting time, lets cut right to the chase.

According to your build, you have 2 USA transports in seazone 8. UK has AC BB transports and USSR sub and fighters.

This force CANNOT block the fleets from merging. The German AC will not participate in combat, but will move to SZ7 in noncombat.

You have no blocker for the med fleet. (If you did, it could only be a DD, in which case a German Fighter+sub would attack it, or the USSR sub (same deal, but no sub in SZ6 then).

Now, you could place a transport in SZ 7. But that STILL wont prevent a merger. Subs can sail through a zone as if the enemy fleet was not there. So one sub attacks that transport, rest as above.

With that build, the german fleet still has options to attack and merge.

Squirecam

[trihero]

I think Switch is talking about making a massive block in SZ6, as well as a minor US block in SZ12. Germany doesn’t have the airforce to spare to take out both fleets. They aren’t going to merge, although they’re going to take a chunk of the Allied fleet out.

[Guest]

Tri has it correct, for 1 version of the block.

If UK/USSR are in SZ6, and USA is in SZ12, then you can;t just attack with AF and then NCM through to SZ7 (the only SZ where both the Baltic and Med fleet can reach).

What are other versions of the block?
USSR suicides into Baltic with FIGs on R1.  22% 1 hit, 27% 2 hits, 19% 3 hits.  Most common result:  1 TRN, 1 SUB dead, half of the starting Baltic Fleet.  That leaves you very little to get through SZ6 with in G2, even with your build.  And it reduces the offensive strike power of the Baltic Fleet (with a 2-3 TRN purchase G1) by 28%, as well as reducing the amount of fodder… and the number of ships that ultimately will end up in SZ7… IF the link is successful.  But you still have to get by that UK fleet in SZ6… 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 BB, 3 TRN…  And if you want your navy to survive to actually link, then you are losing AF in the attempt.  Otherwise, you have little to no navy left to link.

A third version…
UK consolidates their fleet in SZ7 on UK1.  USSR places their Sub in SZ6 on R2.  Now you cannot NCM your Baltic Fleet for the link-up, since the link-up has to occur in a combat zone (unless you win in SZ7).  Baltic fleet can’t reach because of the SUB.  And to even attempt the link, either an offensive ship from the Baltic or a FIG has to be used to kill or submerge the sub, reducing your combat power in the SZ7 strike.  Med fleet has to fight the UK navy alone (with Luftwaffe assistance) in SZ7.  Then of course, the US gets to counter with AF and their initial SZ10 fleet against whatever MIGHT have lived from the German Med Fleet in USA2, again before the link-up can be attempted.  And UK can still drop their new naval builds in SZ7 on UK2, meaning ANOTHER round of combat before the remnants, if any, of the German fleets can link up.

[Jennifer]

Switch:

Why in the world would Russia suicide their planes on R1?  Or for that matter, even on R2?

Or are you talking a strafe where you send the sub and 2 fighters in on R1 and retreat once your sub is killed?

[Guest]

Sub can;t reach in R1.

I am not saying it is a good idea.  I am saying that it is a means of blocking a German fleet link-up (or at least assisting in the process).  Though to be honest, if you are fairly certain your opponent is going to try the fleet link on G2, and you are going to do a hard-core KGF that lands in Europe hot and heavy early, then it may very well be worth the loss of those 2 FIGs.  A lot depends on what you know of your opponent, and how firmly wed they may be to that fleet link-up…

[squirecam]

@ncscswitch:

Tri has it correct, for 1 version of the block.

If UK/USSR are in SZ6, and USA is in SZ12, then you can;t just attack with AF and then NCM through to SZ7 (the only SZ where both the Baltic and Med fleet can reach).

What are other versions of the block?
USSR suicides into Baltic with FIGs on R1.  22% 1 hit, 27% 2 hits, 19% 3 hits.  Most common result:  1 TRN, 1 SUB dead, half of the starting Baltic Fleet.  That leaves you very little to get through SZ6 with in G2, even with your build.  And it reduces the offensive strike power of the Baltic Fleet (with a 2-3 TRN purchase G1) by 28%, as well as reducing the amount of fodder… and the number of ships that ultimately will end up in SZ7… IF the link is successful.  But you still have to get by that UK fleet in SZ6… 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 BB, 3 TRN…  And if you want your navy to survive to actually link, then you are losing AF in the attempt.  Otherwise, you have little to no navy left to link.

A third version…
UK consolidates their fleet in SZ7 on UK1.  USSR places their Sub in SZ6 on R2.  Now you cannot NCM your Baltic Fleet for the link-up, since the link-up has to occur in a combat zone (unless you win in SZ7).  Baltic fleet can’t reach because of the SUB.  And to even attempt the link, either an offensive ship from the Baltic or a FIG has to be used to kill or submerge the sub, reducing your combat power in the SZ7 strike.  Med fleet has to fight the UK navy alone (with Luftwaffe assistance) in SZ7.  Then of course, the US gets to counter with AF and their initial SZ10 fleet against whatever MIGHT have lived from the German Med Fleet in USA2, again before the link-up can be attempted.  And UK can still drop their new naval builds in SZ7 on UK2, meaning ANOTHER round of combat before the remnants, if any, of the German fleets can link up.

1. You stated that USA went to SZ8 to bring troops to London. I counted your DD in 12 and showed how to kill it.
2. The USSR sub in SZ6 DOES NOT stop the subs from sailing into SZ7. So its a med fleet + 2-3 subs
3. Using USSR fighters to counter a move which may never happen is a bad idea as others have said.

I stand by what I said. Germany CAN have a shot to link their fleets up with your build.

There IS a build which will deny it. It was not any of your 3.

Squirecam

[Jennifer]

Kay, Switch.  I thought you were endorsing that option as a good one.

Squire, you sure subs can sneak through enemy waters during combat/non-combat phase?  I thought subs were blocked just like carriers and battleships and destroyers and transports, etc.

[squirecam]

@Jennifer:

Kay, Switch.  I thought you were endorsing that option as a good one.

Squire, you sure subs can sneak through enemy waters during combat/non-combat phase?  I thought subs were blocked just like carriers and battleships and destroyers and transports, etc.

See Rulebook Page 32. Subs special ability is to treat hostile sea zones as friendly.

Squirecam

[JamesG]

@ncscswitch:

A third version…
UK consolidates their fleet in SZ7 on UK1.  USSR places their Sub in SZ6 on R2.  Now you cannot NCM your Baltic Fleet for the link-up, since the link-up has to occur in a combat zone (unless you win in SZ7).  Baltic fleet can’t reach because of the SUB.  And to even attempt the link, either an offensive ship from the Baltic or a FIG has to be used to kill or submerge the sub, reducing your combat power in the SZ7 strike.  Med fleet has to fight the UK navy alone (with Luftwaffe assistance) in SZ7.  Then of course, the US gets to counter with AF and their initial SZ10 fleet against whatever MIGHT have lived from the German Med Fleet in USA2, again before the link-up can be attempted.  And UK can still drop their new naval builds in SZ7 on UK2, meaning ANOTHER round of combat before the remnants, if any, of the German fleets can link up.

That isn’t going to block the merge, assuming Germany really wants to do it.  Don’t forget, the Russian screening sub will NOT block the Baltic subs from attacking SZ7.

Let’s assume Germany is down one fighter from the start, and staged their fighters in range on SZ7 (both reasonable assumptions) you have this in G2:

Germany:
Med BB, Sub, and TRN to SZ7
2 Subs from baltic to SZ7
4 Fighters and 1 Bomber to SZ7

1 Fighter to SZ6

Battles
SZ7: 1 TRN, 3 Subs, 1 BB, 4 Fighters, 1 Bombers VS. 3 TRNs, 1 AC, 1 BB, 2 Fighters
About a 97% chance of Axis win with most common result being the BB and all air survive.  About a 37-40% chance at least one sub survives too.  Germany can sacrifice some fighters if they really want some subs to survive.

SZ6: 1 Fighter VS. 1 Sub
100% chance the sub is dead or submerged at the end of combat, and the Fighter will always survive.

So in Noncombat the Germans can move the rest of Baltic fleet to merge in SZ7.  That’s either 1 DD, 1 AC, 1 TRN or 1 DD,  3-4 TRNs depending on which Naval strat Germany is going for.

So at the end of G2, SZ7 contains 1 BB, 1 DD, 1 TRN plus either (1 AC, 2 Fighters) or (plus 2-3 TRNs).  In either case a decent shot of plus one Sub as well.

In the first case that’s a dPunch of 19, count of 7 (21/8 with a sub).  The second (let’s assume Germany bought 2 TRNs for the Baltic in G1) is dPunch 10, count 6.  (Higher with more TRNs purchased G1 and/or with surviving subs).

The TRN force will get decimated by the US counter, assuming the US staged enough air in range on US1.  The AC force will probably defeat the US counter.  But if the Germans went for TRNs on G1, it may be better for them to attack the UK capital on G2 instead of attempting to merge.

But in any case this “third version” does NOT prevent the merge.  If you combined your third version with the US DD and TRNs moving to SZ12 in US1, THAT would prevent a merge.  Though it might also result in a lot of dead allied navy in G2.  To be fair, a lot of German navy and/or air would die as well if Germany did attack in G2.  I guess the question would then be, could Germany and Japan put enough pressure on Russia to crack them while the US and UK rebuild their infrastructure?

[Guest]

Sorry Squire.  i was less than clear.

My original post was the entire US SZ10 fleet to SZ8 to offload to London.  That allows a DST, 2 TRN for fodder, 1-3 FIGs, and a BOM to counter-attack the German fleet(s) in USA2.

Sending the DST (or both the DST and the TRNs) to SZ12 is another option.

And I am sure that the 3 moves I psoted above are not the only blocks/counters  They are just 3 I thought of offhand.  And then there are variations on those 3 (A DST instead of the TRN and INF to block SUBS from sailing through would be a prime example).

Correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of buying TRNs in the Baltic is to both threaten Sea Lion, and to help increase the odds of a Kreigsmarine link-up.  To achieve that purpose, Germany has to buy the TRN’s, get the Baltic fleet relatively intact to SZ7, get the Med fleet to SZ7 relatively intact, and have sufficient AF available to support an attempted landing in London.

With a strong UK naval buy, the AF is needed for the naval battle, and the TRNs are likely to be fodder.  That removes the Sea Lion Threat, both in the initial move, and in the linked fleet that is missing TRNs and is not adjacent to an IC so that more can be dropped and protected.  Also, in trying to link the fleets to preserve them, you have to fight through a very tough little UK fleet in SZ6, with expected heavy losses.  And any ships that engage in combat in SZ6 won;t reach SZ7 until G3… and you probably won;t kill that SZ6 fleet with just AF (97% failure probability of 5 FIG, 1 BOM against 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 SUB, 2 TRN, 1 DST, 1 BB).  That means that, after G2, you have not made the link-up, and now UK gets to counter (maybe with just a BOM, but only 1 of those fleets has a BB, so they will take out a unit on average), and the US (with up to 3 FIGs, 1 BOM, 1 DST, 2 TRN).

So Germany spends 60% of their initial buy on Navy, and come G3, they MAY have 2 units left in the Atlantic, if the dice were favorable; more likely the Atlantic is devoid of ships, Allied and German.

But then on UK 3, UK builds fleet, more US fleet sails in and more is built.  Allies are landing anywhere they want in Europe or Africa on T4.  And Russia has probably done rather well in the East with the Luftwaffe beign tied up on sea duty.

If all you want is to secure Germany from landings before T4, there are cheaper ways to do it.  IMHO.

[JamesG]

@JamesG:

 If you combined your third version with the US DD and TRNs moving to SZ12 in US1, THAT would prevent a merge. Â

BUT that would be a real bad idea if Germany bought Baltic transports on G1.  With UK buying an AC and TRN on UK1 and the US sending only air to the UK on US1, that invites a UK capital grab by Germany on G2.

[Guest]

Staging in SZ7 was posted only as an option for blocking the merge, not for stopping Sea Lion.

With a high TRN buy, I personally would stage heavy in SZ6, force Germany to use their AF on the naval battle, preventing a G2 landing in London due to lack of air support, and take out the Med Fleet that is somewhere in the Atlantic with the US naval and air units on US2.

But that is just me, you mileage may vary :-D

[squirecam]

@JamesG:

@JamesG:

 If you combined your third version with the US DD and TRNs moving to SZ12 in US1, THAT would prevent a merge. Â

BUT that would be a real bad idea if Germany bought Baltic transports on G1.  With UK buying an AC and TRN on UK1 and the US sending only air to the UK on US1, that invites a UK capital grab by Germany on G2.

(Thx for the backup JamesG.)

Yes, it does. And it would.

The USA transports MUST go to SZ8 to offload. That leaves 1 DD to block, which leaves BB,AC 2 fighters DD, maybe sub/trans vs counter of USA of DD 2 trans and fighter/Bomber. NOT good odds for USA.

Again, your build will NOT prevent a block attempt, or if in SZ12, it risks an attack on UK.

Squirecam

[squirecam]

@ncscswitch:

Staging in SZ7 was posted only as an option for blocking the merge, not for stopping Sea Lion.

With a high TRN buy, I personally would stage heavy in SZ6, force Germany to use their AF on the naval battle, preventing a G2 landing in London due to lack of air support, and take out the Med Fleet that is somewhere in the Atlantic with the US naval and air units on US2.

But that is just me, you mileage may vary :-D

The point was to prevent a merge. But the only valid merge-blocker posted so far leaves London at risk.

But since you place in SZ6, Germany CAN fight and CAN merge. Which was my point. Your build will not prevent a merge. But thanks for playing. :)

Squirecam