Africa Folly for Germany?

[Octopus]

Perhaps we should simplify the question further.

What would do with the German fleet in the med?  Attack the British Destroyer (thereby allowing the invasion of Egypt)? or Attack the British Battleship (thereby denying the British 2 Battleships in the Atlantic)?

I have nightmares about the British having 2 Battleships, and I can deal with Africa in my own wierd way.

Or have you another method for dealing with the Battleship at Gibraltar?

[trihero]

Err use the Atlantic sub + some fighters to take out the battleship.

[666]

Atl G sub, med Battleship and a few fgt’s can take out the B battleship without taking a loss! G tran drops a man in gib to prevent B AF counterattack. G can move their baltic fleet into atl or keep in baltic threatening a possible invasion of UK following turn. Drop most of G AF in W Euro & watch B squirm.

[trihero]

I know your move looks clever, but any UK player worth his salt can defend his capital easily. What do you do with that little med fleet after taking Gibraltar? You aren’t going back to Africa because now there’s a carrier, destroyer, and transport off of Egypt, and going up to the Baltic is worthless since that fleet is dead unless you reinforced it.

[critmonster]

if you hit egypt as i suggested with bomber 2 fig and inf/arm it blocks the canal and with three trannies in range of uk he has to defend capital which changes his strategy if only temporarily, this also disupts the usa fleet, when you link off france you have lots of options.
the last game i played )far too long ago, total withdrawls) i retreated to the med with hwat was left of my fleet after sinking uk and usa fleets, this gave me shielding in southern euro as well as tran support to africa if wanted or over to caucasus.  i don’t know if this is an “optimal” stategy since i have only played a dozen games or so but at least it is different

[Guest]

I think taking Africa as Germany is rather important.  The few IPCs gained may not seem like much, but it is not only a few extra German infantry each turn (enough to defend Western Europe) but also that many less for Britain.  After favoring taking out Egypt on the first turn for a long time, I am now inclined to try the CV build in Baltic on G1 (using Med BB and N. Atlantic sub to take out Brit BB, and two fighters to kill Brit destroyer in SZ 15) and going for Egypt in force on G2.  I have not yet seen a game where the British then sail Indian fleet to Med on B1–how much would this prevent/delay Axis takeover of Africa?

[mofo]

i would say africa is always a good one to try getting……i mean in the long run all those extra ipc’s will help you and it cuts off the oceans as previously mention. of course this doesnt mean you should invest alot of reasorces in this but its alway a good thing to shoot for i would say. take on persia right after and you can focus a german navy to the pacific to hold the fort…as long as germany has an airforce the navy isnt too essential.

[666]

@trihero:

I know your move looks clever, but any UK player worth his salt can defend his capital easily. What do you do with that little med fleet after taking Gibraltar? You aren’t going back to Africa because now there’s a carrier, destroyer, and transport off of Egypt, and going up to the Baltic is worthless since that fleet is dead unless you reinforced it.

Thanks for the clever comment Mr Tri. To answer your question the G med fleet (now +  1 sub) can either attack newly purchased B navy, or US navy w/AF, if in striking distance, or can turn on your B asia fleet in the med & attack. Although I would question the dec to move the B asia fleet to the med abandoning India? Either way G isn’t wasting resources in Africa and I think mixing the game up for the Axis is important from time to time. You may want to try it against NCSC sometime as he seems to have everyone’s number.

[Alyosha00]

Does anyone think keeping the BB and a transport in the med for landings in the Caucuses is worth while? I like it for the bombardment obviously but also for the fact tht you can bring troops from southern all the way to caucuses

[critmonster]

i know i do al, if you link your fleets off france and then bail to the med when uk/usa are ready to wipe you, you can have 2-3 trannies then you could move 6 inf from southern euro to ukrain/caucasus.  more likely you have one maybe two but the flexibility is nice.  another plus to a med fleet is dropping grunts off in africa/mid-east to disrupt the material flow across north africa.  with germany it is all about buying japan that extra turn or two before you have to curl up and get hammered.  i have had germany in the 50’s for several turns and still had to cover up from the 1-2-3 combo eventually because all three of them go before germany gets another turn and once they figure out how to coordinate their assaults it becomes a losing proposition. i love it! punch all three allies in the face so they can’t see straight then duck!
if uk/usa aren’t carefully aggressive (?) moscow goes bye bye from germany and if they aren’t aggressively careful(??) then japan gets the prize.  but both axis have to really have their act together because i don’t think they can recover from and significant blunders the way the allies can

[Wood the rook]

I agree with you guys, having additionnal transports in the med gives you a lot of flexibility. After the first waves of infantry, it is really tedious to get newly bought infantry to the front, but with those transports it’s quite easy to go straight to caucasus in one turn (instead of three by foot).

I like to have 3 trannies in the med after 3 or 4 turns. The reason is I don’t buy anything else beside infantry and artillery (except the occasionnal fig) after turn 3. With those trannies I still have a lot of mobility and I’m able to defend against an invasion. So if the allies are about to offload on my coast, my inf stay put, but otherwise, they take a trip on the med  :-).

This always depends on what the allies do. If the US goes atlantic heavy and head for the med to take my fleet out I won’t spend a dime on additionnal trannies, but otherwise I find it a sure bet.

[666]

So Gent’s, what is your G1 buy if you end up w/3-4 G trans in Med at some point in the game?

[critmonster]

i don’t know about 4 trannies but a g1 ac and hit egypt, g2 baltic trannie and take gibraltar then link off france g3.  i only see it happening if uk/usa are very cautious, more likely your med fleet stays in med and your baltic fleet comes out and might survive.  you could do g1 ac+trannie and take gibraltar round one then link on g2.  puts alot of pressure on uk since you have 3 trannies that can hit london for g2 or link and threaten his fleet.  just keep buying fighters and take them as casualties, especially if usa fleet/air are still out of range

caspian sub talks about 2-3 trannies g1 for a link, they think it will deter uk from hitting fleet, i think i would still do it even knowing my air is toast to trim that fleet down so i could handle it the next round

[Guest]

The Caspian Sub strat was discussed heavilly here a while back.  As a matter of fact, I calle dthe guy who wrote that article an idiot, or somethign similar, because of how easy that strat is to IMMEDIATELY counter (as in destroy its usefullness on UK1)

[trihero]

caspian sub talks about 2-3 trannies g1 for a link, they think it will deter uk from hitting fleet, i think i would still do it even knowing my air is toast to trim that fleet down so i could handle it the next round

Well, if you buy 2 transports the Baltic fleet has a 70% chance of winning, and all you’d be shaving off if submarines if you strafed. If you buy 3 transports, even strafing begins to get risky. Subs for planes is not a good deal. I think you’d have a hard time “handling” the linked fleet next round without any airforce from round 1, plus you have to defend your capital well enough vs ~5 tran and some planes

[Guest]

the 3 TRN build does not take effect for USE of those TRN’s until G2.

That means UK can build an AC, strafe the fleet, reinforce with land, and US can send a FIG and land forces to secure UK.

If it were a BID, it might work… but with UK getting a build in there too before use… NOPE!

SZ6:  1 AC, 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 SUB (UK), 1 SUB (USSR), 2 FIGs (UK or US and UK)

That Tranny fleet (with no attack rolls for the trannies) has to get through THAT first… THEN they face 4 INF, 2-3 ARM, 1-2 BOM, perhaps a FIG, and of course AA fire.

It would be DAMAGING to UK, but not fatal.  And Germany would blow its wad on both it’s Baltic Fleet, it’s G1 build AND it’s Air Force in the effort.

Russia is going to tear the snot out of the German Front after that… then the new Allied fleet gets built (US’s is already enroute from US1 build), and it is time for “The incredible Shrinking Nazi”

[trihero]

I don’t see why you continue to think a navy block is a good counter. Then the Baltic fleet is traded in for a ton of Allied equipment, with no loss to German airforce, so you have to rebuild quite a bit of defense and transports when you lose that stuff. The point of the 3 transport buy is not that you can invade UK, but that you threaten to do so, and if it makes the UK player do something (silly I think) like a naval block then that’s great for Germany. Still this strategy hinges on a bid in Africa so you can take Egypt on the first turn as well as Gibraltar.

[Guest]

Well Tri… think it through…

UK strafes the Baltic fleet… scratch the subs, scratch a UK FIG.  That leaves 1 FIG for the UK AC, and a German Baltic FLeet of 4 TRN, 1 DST.  Not much offensive force…  So they HAVE to use AF to back up the naval strike IF they do one.
US sends a FIG to the AC, so it is loaded.  US also has 2 TRN’s in SZ8, and land forces in UK, as well as their bomber.

So… Germany attacks the fleet of a BB, an AC, 2 FIG, 2 SUB, 1 TRN using their baltic fleet and Air Force.

Baltic fleet is toast, and so are a few pieces of the Luftwaffe.  UK’s next build is more fleet, and US sends TRN’s to increase the size.  Germany is down to a few FIGs that are DESPERATELY needed against Russia if they wish to trade territories and gain on Moscow.  Without the Luftwaffe, Russia WINS the battle on that front.

So… you try the sucker bet… the bluff…

UK and USA call your bluff.
You either attack that fleet and lose yours, and a chunk of your AF, or you fold, your Baltic FLeet dies, and UK and USA BOTH land forces in Norway in T2, then they move to Karelia in T3, with more forces to Norway (or attacking a weak Western…)

It is just a BAD move.

Call it “Sea Lion Scare, take 2”.  And Darth proved how much of a joke THAT was… and that was with the extra trannies as BID not BUILD.

[trihero]

I thought you said a block in SZ6, so how are the US transports going to be there? If you’re talking about linking in SZ8 then that’s an entirely different story. And I have no clue where you’re getting that a few of the luftwaffe will die. It takes at least 5 hits before you get to them, in which time most of the Allies navy will be toast in a block in SZ6 on Uk1. And it’s not like they have to stay around to die, you can do a very hard strafe.

Yeah reading your last post I have no clue what you’re talking about. You say block SZ6 a post before that, then you talk about SZ8, then you say both US and UK can land in Norway on T2. This is all contradictory and confusing; even if we were talking about SZ8 then the attack would have easily drained away your transports and ability to land in Europe until T3.

[Guest]

OK… let’s do it this way…

G1:  Germany builds the 3 TRN’s

Then in UK1, UK strafes the Baltic Fleet, sinks the 2 subs, and loses a FIG (on average).  Fig and bomber retreat
UK builds an AC and a SUB in SZ6.  Moves BB and TRN from SZ2 to SZ6.  FIG lands on AC

US1:  2 TRN from US to UK (with forces on board offloaded to UK).  FIG from Eastern flies to UK

R2:  Russia sub to SZ6

G2:  NOW Germany gets to strike that navy and try to invade UK.  The fleet in SZ6 is:
1 AC, 1 FIG, 1 BB, 2 SUB (1 UK, 1 USSR), 1 TRN.
Against that, Germany can send:
1 DST, 4 TRN, Air Force.
The Med FLeet can;t reach for this battle.  The closest they can get is SZ7.

Now, if they are going to invade UK, they will need to keep those trannies alive.  That means losing DST, then AF.  If they do not want to invade UK… fine, they start losing TRN’s…

But then what was the point?

The trannies die… Germany’s G1 build dies.

Let’s say that they kill the whole Allied fleet, and lose NO air force.  Best case scenario right?  But the Baltic Fleet is SUNK.

Now, in UK2, UK buys another AC and a TRN

US2:  2 TRN from SZ8 to SZ6 w/ new AC.  Offload US land forces already in UK to Norway.  Fly FIG from UK to AC.
USA1 build moves up to SZ8, with land forces offloaded to UK.

Care to point out the flaw?

It is just a BAD move.

Losing the G1 build in a naval battle on G2 where that build does not even offer any offensive punch is SILLY.

And what are you reinforcing against Russia with?  With no INF build in G1, that West Russia Stack is now a Ukraine or Belorussia Stack, and you have NO forces moving to Eastern to protect your ARM…

And of course you have lost Norway, and US and UK are about to send forces at their leisure to Western Europe, Norway, Karelia, Archangel, and Africa…