Can Germany win without a Baltic carrier?



  • @saburo:

    If I could trade the 76 IPC value of the German navy, I would do it in a second.  I would take 2 Inf and 1 Arm in Libya and 13 Arm in Ukraine (or even in Germany if you think it is unfair to put them in Ukraine).  Germany is a land power.  It’s objective is to take out Russia and in the absence of being able to do that it’s objective is to stay alive long enough for Japan to take out Russia.  It doesn’t need a navy to do that.

    SS

    Dope!  OF COURSE YOU WOULD TRADE NAVAL UNITS FOR GROUND UNITS WITH GERMANY!  The question is NOT whether or not you can trade in naval units for ground units.  It is whether or not Germany needs its navy given the existing board setup.  Or specifically, the Baltic carrier.

    If you want to do wildly hypothetical things like swap out naval units for ground units, then start a new thread!

    (edit: flame against Sakai not needed)

    “It doesn’t need a navy to do that.”

    Oh, okay, so hows about you trade your entire navy for ONE German infantry in Ukraine?  Clearly not a fair trade?

    My viewpoint is that you NEED the German navy to stall out the Allies in the Atlantic.  I debate whether or not it is necessary to purchase new naval units for Germany, but I believe Germany needs its existing navy.  Without going into hypotheticals about switching out units!



  • I missed the flame.  It got edited before I read it.  Can I at least know what it said  😄



  • @saburo:

    I missed the flame.  It got edited before I read it.  Can I at least know what it said  😄

    Oh, it probably had something to do with a crack pipe, you know, my usual thing.  No real and serious harmful intent.  But probably abrasive (nods owly head), yes, very probably.  I do that sometimes, you know.  Tee heez.  :evil:


  • 2007 AAR League

    I’ve never bought a Baltic CV (or any navy with Germany) but sounds like it is worth trying.

    IMO the game comes down to how efficiently the US and UK manage to project their superior production across the Atlantic. For that they need clear shipping lanes. If Germany can prevent or delay that, then Germany has the time to project its superior production against the Soviets.

    When I’ve won as Germany it’s because I blew up allied transports as quickly as the allies could build them. If a CV helps with that, I’m all for it.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @ezto:

    Play LL. Germany does not need a navy.

    Never give Germany a bid higher then 1 IPC in LL.  They’re way too strong otherwise.  Hell, I’d take Switch with a 5 IPC bid to be subjected to being the allies in a LL game of AAR. (that’s 5 IPC he gets to spend for the allies!)  Why?  Cause there’s not a bat chance in hades you’re getting an Allied navy in the Atlantic until Turn 5.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Ya know, Frood, I’ve gone pretty heavy Navy with Germany a couple of times.  Works out well.  Russia’s at a disadvantage in most games with Japan comming in and Germany starting with so much in the way of land forces.

    Add in 1 inf, 1 arm in Ukraine so he has almost no chance of taking it and plop down an 40 IPC in naval units (BB/AC works beautifully) and then just crush the British.  They can only get 8 units a round in England.  5 Transports +2 starting and 2 battleships plus 7 infantry, 7 armor and England’s toast.  Russia’s in E. Europe/Balkans, but England’s non-existant.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I was wondering about a battleship too, but thought, “that’s a bit pricey…”

    Another alternative is a stack of 3 subs. Consider:

    • They cost the same as 1 BB.
    • They add 6 to punch, rather than 4
    • They sustain 3 hits instead of 2 (although not self-healing, but cheaper to replace)
    • They get that nice opening attack
    • But downside: vulnerable to air attack. Depends how and where the RAF are. If Germany has no navy I often fly the RAF to Caucasus to help defend against Germany and be available for support in the east, but if there are a bunch of fighters in UK the BB may be better.

    I’m liking that naval option more and more as I think about it. Just spend what you need to to keep Russia at bay, and let Japan grind it out. It makes D-Day a lot more expensive for the allies.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Well, suceptability to air attack only matters if you cannot get a unit to protect it.

    3 Subs are slightly better then 1 battleship.

    2 Destroyers are way better then 1 battleship.  They are just as good as fighters attacking them in defending themselves.  They prevent submarines from escaping or going under the fleet to attack soft targets and they negate sneak shots.  Still a punch of 6 on both offense and defense at a cost of 24.



  • But in SMALL battles that “free hit” is worth a hell of a lot also…

    Again, depends on the battle and the situation which one is better…



  • @frood:

    I was wondering about a battleship too, but thought, “that’s a bit pricey…”

    Another alternative is a stack of 3 subs. Consider:

    • They cost the same as 1 BB.
    • They add 6 to punch, rather than 4
    • They sustain 3 hits instead of 2 (although not self-healing, but cheaper to replace)
    • They get that nice opening attack
    • But downside: vulnerable to air attack. Depends how and where the RAF are. If Germany has no navy I often fly the RAF to Caucasus to help defend against Germany and be available for support in the east, but if there are a bunch of fighters in UK the BB may be better.

    I’m liking that naval option more and more as I think about it. Just spend what you need to to keep Russia at bay, and let Japan grind it out. It makes D-Day a lot more expensive for the allies.

    Actually . . . no.

    UK sees the German build of 3 subs, and counters with 3 fighters.  Germany threatens an invasion with 1 inf 1 tank 6 fighter 1 bomber (any incoming attack from the Mediterranean can be blocked).  UK defense is 1 AA, 1 bomber 2 inf 1 art 2 tank 5 fighter, and US can seal the deal with transports from W. US.  UK navy can consolidate southwest of England.  There is no real reason for UK NOT to run three fighters, because UK can’t run transports in the Atlantic (which it should do ASAP) while Germany still has a strong Baltic fleet.

    So now you have these mostly useless Baltic subs - if you move them out of the Baltic, they are vulnerable to attack by UK navy and air - if they stay where they are, all they do is deter the Allied navy from getting close, but a 3 fighter response means the Allied navy doesn’t need to get close - and a weaker front against Russia.  You have to respond to the threat by purchasing a carrier on G2.  If you do not, 5 fig 1 bomber vs 5 sub 1 trns 1 destr is very bad.

    If you WAITED to build Germany’s navy, to see where UK’s navy went, the UK should probably just try to blow up the Baltic fleet immediately, so it can start shuttling infantry into Europe on UK2.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    Well, suceptability to air attack only matters if you cannot get a unit to protect it.

    3 Subs are slightly better then 1 battleship.

    2 Destroyers are way better then 1 battleship.  They are just as good as fighters attacking them in defending themselves.  They prevent submarines from escaping or going under the fleet to attack soft targets and they negate sneak shots.  Still a punch of 6 on both offense and defense at a cost of 24.

    That crack-smoking owl makes some good points about the specific situation in the Baltic.

    But aside from that, I still think 3 Subs are still better than 2 Destroyers.

    3 Subs v. 1 Bat, Att. survives 80% of the time (Def survives 20%)
    2 Des v. 1 Bat, Att. survives 51% (Def survives 32%)
    3 Subs v. 2 Des, Att. survives 66% (Def. survives 28%)

    But air units throw a wrench into the works. That’s one thing that makes AAR a good game - if there was just one kind of unit that was always the best, everyone would just build that and there’d be a lot less strategy.

    So then the question is, IF germany wants to go the Navy route, what’s the best combination of naval units, and what do you do with them?



  • in my opinion…an AC in the baltic is a good ideas…maybe a tranny as well to get troops to norway/karelia from germany.

    however, i only suggest sea units if the land war is going well…you should have common sense…if russia is pressing then you should wait to build another tranny…take the 2 inf and save 2. also, the mediteranian oculd use more ships…but i’m not too fond of it…you either have to join the fleet…or make 2 fleets rele because the med can be wiped out when they go for africa. it’s good to get troops to the caucus’ and ukraine viz tranny…plus the BB shot :mrgreen:

    i wouldn’t bother getting subs in the baltic…AF will just eat them alive. prolly buy 1AC 1 Des 1 Tranny…then i would have 2 subs 2 Destroyers 2 Tranny 1 AC and 2 Fighters in the baltic…not to bad of a navy there.

    thats 36 IPC…possibly purchased by g3.

    in the med i would buy 1 tranny, 2 Destroyers 2 subs… but i wouldn’t buy for both baltic and med.

    too costly for germany…especially when russia is going all-out against you.

    Feds 10


  • 2007 AAR League

    I think I agree that the best way for Germany to have a naval presence is to join the fleets, including the sub that’s out there by itself.

    On second thought, subs don’t have to worry as much about air attack if they are accompanied by a CV, 2 fighters plus a DD. In that case the subs are certainly not sitting ducks.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @frood:

    I think I agree that the best way for Germany to have a naval presence is to join the fleets, including the sub that’s out there by itself.

    On second thought, subs don’t have to worry as much about air attack if they are accompanied by a CV, 2 fighters plus a DD. In that case the subs are certainly not sitting ducks.

    I usually use the lonely sub as fodder for the attack on the UK BB in SZ 13



  • Germany is not, and WILL NOT be a Naval Power.

    The AC is to provide some options, some slash and burn possibilities against poorly played Allied fleets, and as a reinforcement defensive layer for Germany and Eastern in the early part of the game.  Trying to go beyond such a use is inadvisable, or as others would say… sub-optimal.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I said naval presence, not naval power - I tried it last night against TripleA and even with the stupid AI I had a really tough time keeping boats in the water while also dealing with Russia. I realized that I was fighting the combined output of all three Allies at once, which in a real game would be impossible. My navy was wiped out by round 5, but then I had Moscow and was able to turn the tide in the Atlantic.

    It also made Africa impossible because there was nothing left for that battle.



  • Kill the landing units, screw the navy.  If each “D-Day” fails or is thrown back, who cares about ships?



  • Im currently in Round 1 of a game as the allies, my oponent did not purchase an AC and this game will not last long because of it. He purchased 8 tanks which are good land units, but he doesnt have much of an airforce and his navy is gone. (he moved his baltic fleet to sz 7 and is currently being wiped out) I have 4 land units in Norway and 3 transports sitting in the waters off England waiting to deploy 6 more units either in Norway or Western Europe. The United states will be moblizing its units into Canada and will be primed to drop 4 more units either on Africa or if Western Europe is open, they’ll support the UK there. Sure those 8 tanks can counter and retake Western Europe but I’ll be back next round with more units from the Allies. Its only round 1 and Ive already got the one two punch set up with UK and USA. They can continue to jab Germany until it falls.



  • @AdamD021:

    Im currently in Round 1 of a game as the allies, my oponent did not purchase an AC and this game will not last long because of it. He purchased 8 tanks which are good land units, but he doesnt have much of an airforce and his navy is gone. (he moved his baltic fleet to sz 7 and is currently being wiped out) I have 4 land units in Norway and 3 transports sitting in the waters off England waiting to deploy 6 more units either in Norway or Western Europe. The United states will be moblizing its units into Canada and will be primed to drop 4 more units either on Africa or if Western Europe is open, they’ll support the UK there. Sure those 8 tanks can counter and retake Western Europe but I’ll be back next round with more units from the Allies. Its only round 1 and Ive already got the one two punch set up with UK and USA. They can continue to jab Germany until it falls.

    1.  8 tanks?  lolz.  Well, okay, if Russia went on a total attacking spree, then 8 tanks plus strategic bombing for a quick win.  But usually not.  Wait, you didn’t go on an attacking spree with Russia, didjoo?  It’s not like you hit West Russia, Ukraine, and Norway or Belorussia, and put 6 infantry in Burytia . . . right?  zomg hope not

    2.  I don’t know where sz 7 is offhand.  But if the Baltic fleet does anything but stay in the Baltic that first round, it’s a mistake.  UNLESS Germany moves out right away and submerges subs in response to Allied air attack, then tries to get the Baltic subs to the Mediterranean.  Still probably a mistake.

    3.  If the German player lost his fighters, he’s probably not that good.  She, her.  Whatever.  Unless those fighters were used to irrevocably secure the Caucasus with the Med transport or something crazy like that.

    Honestly, the Germans CAN win without a Baltic carrier, and there are GOOD and SOLID lines of play that do not involve a German Baltic carrier.  In my opinion.



  • There may be good ways to play it but Im saying I dont think this game is a shinning example of it.

    SZ 7 is between England and West Russia.  And I didnt go on an attacking spree, I took West Russia and Ukraine (got favorable dice in both the attack and the counter defense) He didnt take Egypt so I have the India fleet in the Med and he used his subs and planes to take out my BB so his Med fleet is sitting next to Italy and he only used planes to take out my DD. So all in all I took out 1 fighter in Ukraine and I think he lost a couple trying to take out my BB and my DD


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Can England stop a German navy of 2 Battleships, 2 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Destroyer and 3 Submarines on UK 1?  Keep in mind they have only a Battleship and Transport left (maybe two.)

    On G3 you can be set up for a massive invasion of England, or you can just keep UK/USA from landing forces in Europe or Africa for a LONG time.



  • oops, sz 7 is between England and West Europe.



  • 1.  Well, I figure AdamD021 won that game.  It sounds like a total disaster for the Axis.

    2.  “Can England stop a German navy of 2 Battleships, 2 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Destroyer and 3 Submarines on UK 1?  Keep in mind they have only a Battleship and Transport left (maybe two.)”

    Germany has 1 battleship, 2 transports, 2 subs, and a destroyer between the Baltic and Med.  You propose a build of battleship and AC?

    A.  The Germans do not pose a threat to London itself with a UK build of 5 inf 3 tank.

    B.  UK can opt to go 5 inf for defense and supplement with US reinforcements at London, and still build an IC at India to attempt KJF.  A stronger KJF can be attempted with more US reinforcements.

    C.  UK and US can still race the German navy.

    All of those can be overcome by Germany, but the additional problem is that Russia should become very strong very early.  I believe that fact will make it too difficult for the Germans to pull off a win.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, I was thinking of a Battleship/Aircraft Carrier R1 Build with Germany.  Maybe an 8 IPC bid for a second Transport in SZ 5.

    As for invading England, really wasn’t thinking along those lines.  I was thinking of a fleet big enough to stop any Navy from building up by the allies so 100% of Germany can go for Russia leaving W. Europe and S. Europe and Africa mostly undefended.


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