• TripleA

    I tree to save the italy stuffs, but when I do I fail to take moscow on G6 or G7… no good that one. Need russia die, italy go forth n battle. need put put men to protect europe early. most men for russia bought on g1-4, everything german must go russia.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Which is why the US and UK need to focus HARD on Germany for a few rounds.

    To save Russia (and thus take Italy) I like to spend round 1 and 2 in the Pacific and 3 and 4 in the Atlantic (for the US.)  That gives you enough time to get your Pacific fleet to the Atlantic the same round you can conduct combat against the Axis.  Also, Japan expects you to buy in the Pacific, so you are not giving him a gift, you are just keeping him honest there.

    This way, Round 3 you can land in Africa with Round 4 support.

    England should be concerned with Aircraft.  This is a new position for me.  But Fighters can get to Russia to defend if needed, and they can also land to support American invasions.  Of course, I think this is the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it’s the rules:  America takes Normandy with 12-14 infantry and England drops 6 or 7 fighters there to hold it. (for example.)  This has always been the rule, and it’s a great way to exploit it.  However, you will be subject to CRD from Germany if you focus hard on planes. (this of course pulls IPC from Germany and won’t last too long once America’s in hard, but still - it may be a concern for you.)

    As for Japan, I have found Russian, China, India (remnants) and Australia can usually slow them enough for America to help establish a beach head in Europe.  Just an opinion.


    So what do you have to do for saving Italy?

    I would say having Germany take and Italy reinforce is a major plus.  Focus on the Med, but ignore Africa once you have Egypt/Jordan. (Both for the NO and the retreat position - also prevents the Indian fleet from moving in.)  I would go heavy Mech/Armor for Italy (with hindsight) so I could race reinforcements to the German front.

    Maybe a round 3 invasion of Russia.  I honestly do not see how you can take France and get your units in position sooner than that.  I could be wrong, maybe a round 2 invasion is the way to go?  Hell, maybe a round 1 invasion.  Can the Allies defend France enough to prevent a Round 2 sack of Paris if the Axis ignore France round 1?  I wouldnt want the planes to escape, but if it means saving 100 IPC in the taking of Moscow (pulled number out of my arse, no idea if it would save/lose anything) it might be worth NOT hitting Paris round 1.

    I am, using this arguement, in an effort to take Moscow faster in the hopes that this saves Italy.  Maybe not hitting Paris means Italy is in more Jeapordy?  Well, if so, then you must do it, right?

    No idea.  Just some ramblings and thoughts.


  • @Cmdr:

    Maybe a round 3 invasion of Russia.  I honestly do not see how you can take France and get your units in position sooner than that.  I could be wrong, maybe a round 2 invasion is the way to go?  Hell, maybe a round 1 invasion.  Can the Allies defend France enough to prevent a Round 2 sack of Paris if the Axis ignore France round 1?  I wouldnt want the planes to escape, but if it means saving 100 IPC in the taking of Moscow (pulled number out of my arse, no idea if it would save/lose anything) it might be worth NOT hitting Paris round 1.

    G1 invasion of Russia is tempting but there is a big flaw in it.  With Russia at war and no possible sealion threat, UK and french planes can fly over Norway and land in Karelia with Russia infantry and AA guns to protect them.  Round 2 they reinforce Belarus and/or West Ukraine to slow the Germans advance, eventually moving on to defend Moscow if the Germans even make it that far.  Russia loses the Murmansk NO but those fighters are worth it, and besides Germany will probably be putting a sub in z125 every turn anyway, no matter what UK tries to do about it.

    G2 works well IMHO, but a popular approach is for Italy to walk into East Poland I2 and then Germans reinforce G3 without a DOW on USSR so they still get the wheat NO (and Russia is at war with Italy so no murmansk NO R3 if there is any axis sub in z125, even a German one!).  Another trick is to skip yugoslavia G1 and use it next turn to strafe/retreat mech and armor units from France to Hungary.

    Defending Italy can be done by Germany using its airforce to degrade UK/french naval presence in the med and thereby allow Italy to get on its feet without blowing its navy early on.  The Italian NOs are key to building enough counterattack force to kill an allied landing in France while Germany gets the job done on the Eastern front.


  • @Vance:

    G2 works well IMHO, but a popular approach is for Italy to walk into East Poland I2 and then Germans reinforce G3 without a DOW on USSR so they still get the wheat NO (and Russia is at war with Italy so no murmansk NO R3 if there is any axis sub in z125, even a German one!).

    Russia would still get the 125 NO cause they are at war in the europe theatre, and they can counter attack the italians where ever they went if they dont delcare war on germany.


  • Nope.  If you do this, Germany will have a big stack of units in Italian East Poland by R3 that is too big for Russia to take it back.  Russia can declare war on Germany once Italy has declared war on Russia, but as of G3 they are not yet at war so Germany gets the wheat NO even with their troops in Italian East Poland.

    The Russian Murmansk NO says:

    When the Soviet Union Is at War in Europe:
    5 IPCs if the convoy in sea zone 125 is free of Axis warships, Archangel is controlled by the Soviet Union, and there are no units belonging to other Allied powers present in any territories originally controlled by the Soviet Union.

    And the German wheat NO says:

    When Germany Is Not at War with the Soviet Union:
    5 IPCs representing wheat and oil from the Soviet Union.

    So if Russia is at war in Europe they don’t get the Murmansk NO if there is an axis warship in z125.  Germany on the other hand can collect the wheat NO as long as its not at war with Russia even if it has units in an Italian territory that was originally soviet.  Russia cannot simply refuse to declare war on Germany R3 just to get the Murmansk NO because a German sub in z125 is still an Axis sub.


  • If russia is at war with italy, then they are at war in europe, so they collect the NO, and if they dont declare on germany, russia can ignore the german stack and take back the territory the italians took.


  • Don’t think so.  If they are at war in Europe (with Italy or both), they could only collect the NO if there are no AXIS ships in z125, no matter if they are at war with Germany or not.  And they can’t attack East Poland to take it back from Italy if there are German units in East Poland unless they also declare war on Germany.  It would be another matter if it were a naval battle, but its a land battle with a multinational force defending so they can’t just fight the Italians and ignore the German units.  What if they won?  Then there would be a Russian territory with bunch of Germans on it and that just don’t compute.

    This I2/G3 gimmick gives a huge advantage for the axis because they can get inside Russian territory, and get the $5, and deny Russia their $5, which is why it is such a popular way to launch Barbarossa


  • if there is an axis warship of course they wont collect, but they can ignore the germans easily.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Early on, Italy can spearhead for Germany.  Later, however, I feel the Germans need to take the lead - if only for the cash.  As Russia, I would not liberate any territory (except Stalingrad, Leningrad or Odessa - or Moscow of course, if it can be held) from Italy.  Any IPC Italy gets is one less Germany gets and I like to strangle the Germans. (Remember, Italians can be convoy raided, there just are not a lot of German convoys that can be sapped by submarines.)

  • '17 '16 '13 '12

    @Vance:

    Don’t think so.  If they are at war in Europe (with Italy or both), they could only collect the NO if there are no AXIS ships in z125, no matter if they are at war with Germany or not.  And they can’t attack East Poland to take it back from Italy if there are German units in East Poland unless they also declare war on Germany.  It would be another matter if it were a naval battle, but its a land battle with a multinational force defending so they can’t just fight the Italians and ignore the German units.  What if they won?  Then there would be a Russian territory with bunch of Germans on it and that just don’t compute.

    This I2/G3 gimmick gives a huge advantage for the axis because they can get inside Russian territory, and get the $5, and deny Russia their $5, which is why it is such a popular way to launch Barbarossa

    Yes, Germany gets an extra $5. The Russians can declare war on Germany and clear 125 (if they can). Denying Russia’s $5 does not become easier with this trick as far as I understand it.


  • The Soviets cannot clear 125 if Germany uses a sub there; USSR does not start with a destroyer – Germany can just submerge his sub and it’ll still be there when it’s time to check the NO. That’s why people say it’s so easy to deny that NO (coupled with Germany getting to keep theirs for one more turn while still advancing toward Moscow).

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Fortress:

    The Soviets cannot clear 125 if Germany uses a sub there; USSR does not start with a destroyer – Germany can just submerge his sub and it’ll still be there when it’s time to check the NO. That’s why people say it’s so easy to deny that NO (coupled with Germany getting to keep theirs for one more turn while still advancing toward Moscow).

    Precisely why England should be focused on destroyers, (well, that and the normal pacification of the Atlantic, of course!)


  • To come back in topic:

    I think there’s no way to save Italy against a competent Allies player. If you find one that works, I’d be really happy to learn from it.


  • Have Germany take over London. With no money to spend in the Med, it becomes difficult to knock out Italy.

    Solved.

    :wink:


  • @Fortress:

    Have Germany take over London. With no money to spend in the Med, it becomes difficult to knock out Italy.

    Solved.

    :wink:

    In the meantime USA doesn’t do anything.

    No, it’s not possible. A competent allied player won’t let you take London. And if you still pursue it, Russia will take care of the rest.


  • I jest, of course  :-D

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