OK thanks! Glad I’m up to date.
Worst Alpha Modifications
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No offense btw
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@The:
I said research and development, not b/c it has changed for the worse, but b/c it still sucks, just like in its out of the box form. So really it’s the lack of a positive change.
Im with him on this one. Seriously it is the clunkiest and most unintutive thing about the game. It also has the worst cost to reward ratio and really of all the things makes the least sense.
Think about it; You’re Japan and you want super subs so you buy the research tokens and make your rolls. This is the only part of this system that makes any sense. Now you roll and get improved mech infantry…?? wha!?! Not being able to gear towards certian tech makes this really useless. Im playing as the Soviet Union and all the tech research ive done gives me super subs and cheaper ships and wondering why I wasted the money! Before even getting to this point I have to roll a 6 anyway, which makes sense I guess, but having to roll a 6 everytime is ridiclious! Im pouring money into trying to get jet fighters as Germany and getting nothing! Whats going on here, is the German jet-engine research team spending all the money ive been investing in trying to make the Me262 out of fudge!?! I mean, orignal thinking team but whats the point(outside of trying make very dilicious lufwaffe pilots)!?!
I think allowing players to go after certian techs and a system of incremental groth (the more money you spend, over several turns,the eaiser the roll becomes) for tech would be much better then the total garb bag system we have now. -
@mantlefan:
Before Germany could attack a sea zone, do the convoy damage on the opponent’s turn, and then move away on its next turn. Now, Germany needs to attack a sea zone, do no convoy damage, then wait till its second turn, then attack the convoy, and stay put.
uh?
i seem to have missed something in the new rules, why is there no convoy damage after the first turn of Germany? -
I think he’s talking about how, on the UK’s turn, the convoy damage isnt automatic as I guess you can only roll for convoy disruption on your turn, not sure though as I havent read the new rule throughly lately
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@special:
@mantlefan:
Before Germany could attack a sea zone, do the convoy damage on the opponent’s turn, and then move away on its next turn. Now, Germany needs to attack a sea zone, do no convoy damage, then wait till its second turn, then attack the convoy, and stay put.
uh?
i seem to have missed something in the new rules, why is there no convoy damage after the first turn of Germany?I know what it is. Back on 9/22, Larry was proposing a new way of convoy raiding that happened on YOUR conduct combat phase. Damage was applied as damage markers to the industrial complex closest to the convoy route in question (eg. convoy route in SZ 119, next to Scotland would be applied to UK complex.). In that scenario, the sea zone had to be unoccupied before you moved your warships or subs into it for you to conduct the convoy damage. If there were enemy warships, or destroyers in the case of subs, you could not fight the enemy warships and conduct convoy raiding at the same time (like a bomber can’t SBR and hit enemy units).
However, I think this idea was scrapped with the finalization of Alpha+3 rules on Nov.2. Now convoy raiding takes place in the collect income phase of your opponent. So, if you move into a hostile sea zone and fight an enemy’s ships, and if you destroy those ships and have your own warships and/or subs remaining, on his turn you also do convoy damage. -
@mantlefan:
@special:
@mantlefan:
Before Germany could attack a sea zone, do the convoy damage on the opponent’s turn, and then move away on its next turn. Now, Germany needs to attack a sea zone, do no convoy damage, then wait till its second turn, then attack the convoy, and stay put.
uh?
i seem to have missed something in the new rules, why is there no convoy damage after the first turn of Germany?At least last i checked the rule (it may have been updated) Germany cannot do damage if enemy combat ships are there.
Ok, let’s see
the green text in Larry’s Alpha3 rules says:
Three conditions that must exist for this kind of attack to occur:
1. Sea zone must have “Convoy Symbol” image.
2. Sea zone must be adjacent to one or more of your controlled islands or territories.
3. At least one warship belonging to a power with which you are at war must be in the sea zone. Note: Air units on an aircraft carrier can conduct convoy disruptions, but the carrier itself does not roll any dice.Well, maybe you interpreted “you” as the one doing the raid. If so, you have interpreted it the
wrong way, i think (like knp7765 pointed out at the bottom of page 2).
“You” is the player who’s being raided, so yes, there must be at least an enemy warship there, giving raid damage.edit: makes me wonder, do submerged subs give convoy raid damage?
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@special:
edit: makes me wonder, do submerged subs give convoy raid damage?
I believe so
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@special:
edit: makes me wonder, do submerged subs give convoy raid damage?
I believe so
I would say yes too.
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@special:
edit: makes me wonder, do submerged subs give convoy raid damage?
I believe so
I would say yes too.
Since they did in Alpha 2 (or at least how we played) then yes.
Worst change? Getting rid of the British units in France and not replacing them with some or all French units!
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The results of this poll are very diverse, what does it tell us if anything?
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@Cmdr:
Worst change? Getting rid of the British units in France and not replacing them with some or all French units!
Why would you say that? Without those pesky British units, the French territories are even easier for Germany to take now. C’mon, admit it. You WANT for Germany to take over France easier. Look at the words under your avatar. Are they French? NO, they are GERMAN! You WANT Germany to take ALL of France and rub it into non-existence! Join me, and complete your journey to the dark side. As Darth Sideous might say, “It is inevitable. You, like your avatar, are now mine.”
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@Cmdr:
Worst change? Getting rid of the British units in France and not replacing them with some or all French units!
Why would you say that? Without those pesky British units, the French territories are even easier for Germany to take now. C’mon, admit it. You WANT for Germany to take over France easier. Look at the words under your avatar. Are they French? NO, they are GERMAN! You WANT Germany to take ALL of France and rub it into non-existence! Join me, and complete your journey to the dark side. As Darth Sideous might say, “It is inevitable. You, like your avatar, are now mine.”
If you want the honest truth, I want the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to take over France. :P
Yes removing 20 IPC worth of British units from France makes it easier to take. Why did Larry pick on the British??? They also lost 30 IPC in Bases!
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@mantlefan:
Maybe because sealion is severely hampered?
No! no no no no no, we are not getting back on this topic, its been discussed to death! lets focuse on the changes and not sealion strats again. Heres an intresting one
@Clyde85:Im pouring money into trying to get jet fighters as Germany and getting nothing! Whats going on here, is the German jet-engine research team spending all the money ive been investing on trying to make the Me262 out of fudge!?! I mean, orignal thinking team and all but whats the bloody point!(outside of trying make very dilicious lufwaffe pilots)
I still laugh at this :-D
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@mantlefan:
Maybe because sealion is severely hampered?
No! no no no no no, we are not getting back on this topic, its been discussed to death! lets focuse on the changes and not sealion strats again. Heres an intresting one
@Clyde85:Im pouring money into trying to get jet fighters as Germany and getting nothing! Whats going on here, is the German jet-engine research team spending all the money ive been investing on trying to make the Me262 out of fudge!?! I mean, orignal thinking team and all but whats the bloody point!(outside of trying make very dilicious lufwaffe pilots)
I still laugh at this :-D
ya, thats not bad.
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@mantlefan:
@Cmdr:
@Cmdr:
Worst change? Getting rid of the British units in France and not replacing them with some or all French units!
Why would you say that? Without those pesky British units, the French territories are even easier for Germany to take now. C’mon, admit it. You WANT for Germany to take over France easier. Look at the words under your avatar. Are they French? NO, they are GERMAN! You WANT Germany to take ALL of France and rub it into non-existence! Join me, and complete your journey to the dark side. As Darth Sideous might say, “It is inevitable. You, like your avatar, are now mine.”
If you want the honest truth, I want the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to take over France. :P
Yes removing 20 IPC worth of British units from France makes it easier to take. Why did Larry pick on the British??? They also lost 30 IPC in Bases!
Maybe because sealion is severely hampered?
Not anymore it is not. It’s even easier now than it was in Alpha 2 given that it’s significantly harder for the British to get planes back, a plane was straight up removed and another was turned into a virtual nothing unit (Strategic Bomber) for defense.
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@mantlefan:
So getting planes back are the only factor affecting Sealion? That’s good to know because I was about to actually think of the big picture instead of one isolated factor.
Yes, pretty much the ONLY factor. Without the planes, England has no high value defense pieces resulting in far fewer hits which in turn means Germany needs to dedicate less to the attack.
Fewer planes on the mainland also means less division of the Luftwaffe meaning more Luftwaffe available for the attack.
So yes, the only thing effecting SEA LION success rate (that changed it from a bone headed maneuver to a very valid and strong maneuver again) is the loss of British ability to get planes back to England fast. Notice, this has no bearing at all on Russia or America or what Australia or India might do, I am only talking about success rate of Sea Lion.
13 Transports, 2 loads = 26 ground units on England + 12 aircraft (since Germany got an extra Strategic Bomber.)
England: -5 units on the mainland, -3 fighters from Med/Africa
Battle looks like:Germany: 2 Strategic Bomber, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical Bombers, 30 Infantry, 8 Artillery, 9 Armor, 4 Mech
England: 1 Strategic Bomber, 5 Fighters (including 1 French fighter), 22 Infantry, 1 Armor, 4 AA Guns
Odds of Success: 100%
Investment: 84 IPC for Transports, 3 IPC for Infantry, plus a few warships. Total needed: 100 IPC, amazingly enough, you start with 30, you get 19 from France and you get 51 for Round 2 which, coincidentally, is 100 IPC! And you may not need that 1 infantry, I am just assuming battles went REALLY badly in France and you are too lazy to walk a guy up.(Note, I treated each defending AA Gun as if it was an infantry unit, this skews the results in favor of England.)
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I always attempted sealion in Alpha+2, and it was far from a bone headed strategy. However, in Alpha+3, it’s not the British fighters or valuable defense units that worry me (they never did) its the early Russian entry when London falls, and the missing $5 NO, thats preventing me from landing in England.
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@Cmdr:
Not anymore it is not. It’s even easier now than it was in Alpha 2 given that it’s significantly harder for the British to get planes back, a plane was straight up removed and another was turned into a virtual nothing unit (Strategic Bomber) for defense.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I’d like to clarify that the bomber was added. It did not replace any fighter in London.
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The Russians coming in early and the missing NO do not effect how easy it is to destroy England, they only impact the wiseness of the act. Mantlefan was on about how the missing planes were not the only factor effecting the ease of Sea Lion and I went on to show how they are, in fact, the only factor effecting the ease of completing Sea Lion.
Can the Russians walk into Finland, Poland, Hungary and Romania? Probably. Will it allow them to win? I don’t know. Will it stop Germany from winning? I don’t know. The big change is that now you don’t need Moscow to win - because you supplanted it with London. Will that make it easier for Germany to win? I don’t know. What do I know? That Sea Lion is easier today than it was in Alpha 2 and certainly a far cry easier today than it was the day Alpha 3 was released!
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