@ncscswitch:
OK, to expand my previous thoughts (not that it will change anything at this point, the poll is well decided…)
UK and Germany are both occupying the SAME SPACE.
USA moves into that space and starts shooting.
Germany shoots back (i.e. they counter-attack)
USA is the aggressor, Germany returns fire… but the UK forces are still THERE.
Ok, there is the first fallacy. The supposed German “counter-attack” is not by game definition an attack, it is a defense. The forces on the attack are the nation whose turn it is. This is obvious. Any other country subject to the attack is the defender.Â
@ncscswitch:
As such, they are subject to being hit.
They cannot attack (i.e. they cannot fire their guns) but they ARE subject to being hit by stray torpedoes.
No, The other Allied ships are not present for the attack, and therefore not present in the entire combat scenario.
@ncscswitch:
And that is there Larry’s original thinking (and the rules for Pacific) went…
The UK is not attacking, but the Allies per written rule, choose who takes losses against enemy fire in multinational situations (in this case where the Germany sub is counter-attacking the aggressor USA forces).
We are playing Revised and not Pacific. I believe this hammers the point home all the more. The fact that the rule was clearly posted in Pacific indicated the designers know completely the intentions of the ruling and purposely left this rule out of Revised and any version of LHTR to date. The printed rulebook cannot be updated easily, but Larry’s LHTR most certainly can and it has no mention of this ruling.
@ncscswitch:
Now, on a few other points…
- Yes, the rules specifically state that allied forces may NOT attack together. And the UK is NOT firing, so that rule is met.
In this case, the term “attack” refers to any participation in the combat. The UK is not part of the operation in any capacity, even to absorb hits.
@ncscswitch:
- The rules also specifically state that you can NOT single out one nation’s forces when attacking and there is more than one allied nation in the same space (and that IS what Germany is doing, they are attacking BACK at the Allies)
This is true, but once again, the German sub is “defending” not attacking.
@ncscswitch:
As Larry stated elswhere, game mechanics should not be above game rules (meaning that the battle board rationale is not valid by his reasoning… for example the 2nd edition Battle Board does NOT contain a slot for attacker transports, but they sure as heck could be taken as losses by the rules!)
There is a huge difference between not having an attack value and not participating in combat.
The idea of considering a submarine on defense to be considered an attack is breaking the game. In a Naval combat, I could consider an opposing fleet that consists of transports to not have ANY return fire because they are attacking back when my fighters engage them. "they do not get to roll dice because they are attacking back." “I suppose carriers then fire at a 1, because there are attacking back not defending.”
This entire thought process breaks the game.Â
It pains me to think this is not obvious.