it’s one of those things where you have “12 IPC’s left” and someone is wanting to build ships but dont just want 2 subs
Cruisers
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It can be advantageous also, to not have any destroyers in your fleet for defense. The fighters on your carriers will take out non-sub casualties. If your opponent has high-dollar high-attack units like battleships or bombers or carriers and a lot of subs, having a destroyer in your fleet can be a great detriment. No such problem with other boats, including cruisers. And again, the cruiser can bombard when it’s your turn to go on offense, while the subs cannot (in anticipation of the argument that then you should build 2 subs instead of a cruiser).
As another player pointed out also, higher quality units like cruisers roll more times than destroyers or subs that roll once and then are lost in the first round. It’s why I like to leave a tank or a plane on defense with an infantry stack. That 3 or 4 may get to roll several times. Also, if they are trying to do a hit and run and they don’t want to take the territory (or sea zone) then you are left with your best unit…. etc. etc.
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Heh, my opponent just bought a cruiser with the UK. Looks like he wanted maximum fleet defense, and that’s the way the money fell out.
You have 12 bucks to spend on fleet. 2 subs can’t hit air. Would you rather have a destroyer or cruiser?
That’s what I thought.
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The usefulness of cruisers is (as previously mentioned) a very limited roll, but absolutely one that can, and DOES come into play in many games I’ve played.
I don’t think I’ve ever played a game (AA50 to AAG40) that did NOT include cruisers in fleet purchases (Especially for Japan, the US and UK).
Personally, I like them. Just not as the backbone of a fleet. I’d rather buy a cruiser and a destroyer instead of a battleship in almost all cases as well.
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Yes, Rorschach, a destroyer and cruiser can go 2 different places (BB can only be in one place at a time), and can score 2 hits, and have a “punch” of 5 as opposed to 4. The destroyer has anti-sub capabilities, and the cruiser has nearly the bombardment power of the battleship. Of course, there is the other side of the coin as well. The whole “free hit” thing. All depends on your situation and how you want to use them. Main thing is to have fun, though, and cruisers are fun.
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Its so nice you are playing the game for fun and not to actually win.
The whole point to having the cruisers in the game is that the additional variations in the fleet makes things more interesting. But when there’s no point in buying a unit 99% of the time, there is something wrong. So if cruisers are adjusted so it makes sense to buy them at times, then it adds variation to the game and makes the game more fun without having to play stupid.
Oh yeah, and that 1% chance is probably an over-estimate.
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Its so nice you are playing the game for fun and not to actually win.
I’m on top of the AA50 league standings. I play to have fun and to win, and I do both all the time.
The whole point to having the cruisers in the game is that the additional variations in the fleet makes things more interesting. But when there’s no point in buying a unit 99% of the time, there is something wrong. So if cruisers are adjusted so it makes sense to buy them at times, then it adds variation to the game and makes the game more fun without having to play stupid.
Oh yeah, and that 1% chance is probably an over-estimate.
So house rule it. There are a lot of people who want to play with 10 or 11 IPC cruisers, who agree with you. If you want to change the rules, you’re on the wrong website. Go to Harris Design and talk to the man. Here it’s just a bunch of hot air. I just enjoy talking about the utilities of cruisers, and pointing out the flaws in the arguments that they’re not any good.
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@mantlefan:
The problem is that you state without any real justification or consideration that the 12 IPC must be spent on fleet. 4 IPC can be used for some good things elsewhere, no?
Oh, please. Yes, he wanted to protect his fleet and 4 IPC spent on an artillery unit doesn’t do that! Duh! No transports, no getting units off the island!
Creating situations that ignore relevant facts (such as the fact that IPC can be used elsewhere and the point in the game when cruisers would actualy really start ot pay off). to make cruisers seem more useful really doesn’t address any potentially helpful issue.
Oh, and you’re helpful. You just like to argue.
Using cruisers one already has effectively and BUYING cruisers are separate issues. Obviously if one already has it they should maximize its utility. In terms of it being too late for the opponent to attack your navy it’s true that it destroyers do no good, but at that point even though cruisers do marginally more good,it doesn’t MATTER.
Yes, you’re right until the last statement. It does matter, because in Global you could be losing in one theater and winning in the other, and you need to win in that theater fast. Cruisers will help you win the game there. Destroyers will not.
It’s also annoying how your case that seems like cruisers are a better buy 1% of the time is somehow totally dismissive of them being a bad buy 99% of the time.
I disagree with the premise that cruisers are a bad buy 99% of the time.
That % where it is a bad buy pretty much means we have a unit which is effectifely useless to buy, which I guess is similar to AA guns, so it’s not inherently bad, but, if you look at how often crusiers are bought, and think there is value in having more types of units, then it might be helpful to at least admit that it might be a good thing that cruisers might be more useful.
Why are you talking here? We don’t make the rules. Go talk to Larry. Meanwhile, I will enjoy the opportunity to buy cruisers occasionally and you will continue to “suffer”, I guess. Jeez, man. Get over it.
Just because they are not TOTALLY useless buys doesn’t mean they are not EFFECTIVELY useless buys. I don’t want to sandbag the game with too many more changes, but getting cruisers more useful is a valid wish because they are effectively useless buys, and the more options the player has, the better.
<sigh> Look, do you realize I don’t care if I convince anyone? I don’t care if you don’t listen to me. I understand you just badly want to feel good about buying cruisers. Sorry, don’t feel like reiterating all the points I’ve made on other threads. But basically, there is more to think about than 8 vs. 12, as I already stated and you apparently ignored. Talk about not helpful, you don’t address any of the issues I raise, you just come out and state like it’s a proven fact that “one percent of the time” cruisers are a good buy.
There are situations. Limited production situations are one example. When your factory is damaged, cruisers cost 13 and destroyers cost 9. Some people play with tech. You get 2 IPC’s off a cruiser and 1 off a destroyer. So if you have imp shipyards and your factory is damaged, you’re looking at 8 for a destroyer, and 11 for a cruiser. There are different situations. How about the limited production situations? You have a factory that can only produce 3 units and you want fleet power. You don’t have fighters in the area, and you just need enough to protect a transport against a bomber. Do you want to buy a destroyer? A cruiser? A battleship? Nice to have the cruiser option.
Did you not read anything I wrote about the subs and aircraft issues? No, you just come out and say 99% of the time cruisers are a bad buy. How helpful. I’ll tell you what’s annoying, is people like you who just like to argue online. You just enjoy bashing people’s opinions, and it’s ironic that you say I’m not being helpful when that’s all I’m trying to do, and I’m providing discussion about various game situations, and you just come in and lob criticisms.
Easier to throw rocks at sand castles then to build them, I guess. And for many, it’s more fun. :roll:
I’m not putting my thoughts out there for the purpose of argument. I’m putting them out there for people to consider and talk about.</sigh>
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Some units are useless to some people. I’ve seen people claiming tanks were useless as well.
I don’t care when they’re useful to me and Crusiers have plenty of usage for me. I have no issue with them costing 12. The 3/3 factor and bombard ability alone makes them useful and are always a part of my fleets whether I play Allied or Axis. -
Meh, I guess I’ll House Rule em to 11.
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I’m on top of the AA50 league standings. I play to have fun and to win, and I do both all the time.
Guess that league isn’t that competitive then.
Funny, I figured there would be a discussion as to how to best adjust cruisers to make them more useful. You could reduce the cost, improve their ability, etc. Never really though anyone would argue that they are fine since ITS SO BLATANTLY OBVIOUS!
But then again, all I have to do is watch C-SPAN to see people arguing against the obvious. Then a whole bunch of people vote for these idiots.
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@Zallomallo:
Meh, I guess I’ll House Rule em to 11.
yeah, in my house we turn them up to 11 too, cause 11 is louder than 10.
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@Zallomallo:
Meh, I guess I’ll House Rule em to 11.
yeah, in my house we turn them up to 11 too, cause 11 is louder than 10.
I don get it
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I’m not so sure lowering the cost of cruisers to 11 or 10 is a good idea. Basically, right now we just have the cruiser and I think most people kind of consider it the heavy cruiser. What happens if we put light cruisers in the game? Then they will more than likely cost 10 or 11 and regular, or heavy, cruisers will have to cost 12. As for doing something to increase their abilities, perhaps make cruisers like a naval AA gun; during first round of combat, they get a shot of 1 at attacking enemy planes and any hits are immediately removed.
I’m glad we got cruisers. It’s nice to have something in between destroyers and battleships and I think it makes our fleets more complete. I don’t believe that cruisers are a “bad buy” 95% or 99% of the time. I think it depends totally on the situation and what you are trying to do at that time. In some cases, yeah it would be horrible to throw a cruiser in there. In others, you specifically want them. I really don’t think you can just label them with a certain percentage.
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@Zallomallo:
@Zallomallo:
Meh, I guess I’ll House Rule em to 11.
yeah, in my house we turn them up to 11 too, cause 11 is louder than 10.
I don get it
I was trying to quote Spinal Tap
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I’m not so sure lowering the cost of cruisers to 11 or 10 is a good idea. Basically, right now we just have the cruiser and I think most people kind of consider it the heavy cruiser. What happens if we put light cruisers in the game? Then they will more than likely cost 10 or 11 and regular, or heavy, cruisers will have to cost 12. As for doing something to increase their abilities, perhaps make cruisers like a naval AA gun; during first round of combat, they get a shot of 1 at attacking enemy planes and any hits are immediately removed.
I’m glad we got cruisers. It’s nice to have something in between destroyers and battleships and I think it makes our fleets more complete. I don’t believe that cruisers are a “bad buy” 95% or 99% of the time. I think it depends totally on the situation and what you are trying to do at that time. In some cases, yeah it would be horrible to throw a cruiser in there. In others, you specifically want them. I really don’t think you can just label them with a certain percentage.
i agree, the “bad buy percentage” is just a bunch of bollocks.
Even if there is a 5% “Best buy”, that doesn’t imply 95% is “bad/worst buy” (or whatever%). Stop thinking black or white, people. That whole discussion is nonsense.
As Gamerman pointed out with several examples, a cruiser can be useful.
Will it be bought often? No. Does that make it an obsolete unit? No!There could be house ruling to make it more spicy, such as for example (like a TB) to give it a 4/3 when pairing it with a fighter (or another unit). Or to make it 11 IPC (does 1 IPC really make that much difference?).
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LOL I love how people go on and whine about how cruisers aren’t the most effective buy.
What about some countries, like RUSSIA, who never get to buy navy in any serious fashion?
Or the Chinese, who are limited to men / arty, and lastly the French, who NEVER get to even do a buy!?
There is a time and place for everything. Infact, when’s the last time someone bought a battleship? I’m guessing almost never.Germany/Italy certainly can’t, UK I doubt it… Japan maybe… USA most likely. Everyone else can forget it.
And why would I EVER build a destroyer? if my opponent is never building subs? It can’t be used to bombard - and it’s less effective on defense… in come the cruiser.
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LOL I love how people go on and whine about how cruisers aren’t the most effective buy.
What about some countries, like RUSSIA, who never get to buy navy in any serious fashion?
Or the Chinese, who are limited to men / arty, and lastly the French, who NEVER get to even do a buy!?
There is a time and place for everything. Infact, when’s the last time someone bought a battleship? I’m guessing almost never.Germany/Italy certainly can’t, UK I doubt it… Japan maybe… USA most likely. Everyone else can forget it.
And why would I EVER build a destroyer? if my opponent is never building subs? It can’t be used to bombard - and it’s less effective on defense… in come the cruiser.
lol my usa bought like 47 battleships(not really, more like 3)
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And why would I EVER build a destroyer? if my opponent is never building subs? It can’t be used to bombard - and it’s less effective on defense… in come the cruiser.
Actually destroyers are, cost-wise, superior to cruisers on defense. Not saying that cruisers are useless. I like them.
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What about giving it a movement of 3?
Most cruisers were designed for speed and range. The naval bases might eliminate a lot of need for the extra space, but could still be useful and a little more historically accurate at the same time.
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LOL I love how people go on and whine about how cruisers aren’t the most effective buy.
What about some countries, like RUSSIA, who never get to buy navy in any serious fashion?
Or the Chinese, who are limited to men / arty, and lastly the French, who NEVER get to even do a buy!?
There is a time and place for everything. Infact, when’s the last time someone bought a battleship? I’m guessing almost never.Germany/Italy certainly can’t, UK I doubt it… Japan maybe… USA most likely. Everyone else can forget it.
And why would I EVER build a destroyer? if my opponent is never building subs? It can’t be used to bombard - and it’s less effective on defense… in come the cruiser.
Who are you playing with? In my games Germany, Italy, UK and Japan often build Battleships…As subs are highly effective and always on the board, you’re Carriers have to be protected with Destroyers…
Nevertheless point taken on
It can’t be used to bombard - and it’s less effective on defense… in come the cruiser
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