AA50-Is there something we're missing about SUBs??


  • I have my gripes with the new subs as well.  Even though they only cost 6 IPCs, for 2 IPCs more you can get the superior destroyer.


  • yea i am with cobert. Destroyer trumps the sub now. The 2-2 unit is better for defense all around.

    I do like Krieghunds idea ( not really new, but used in current house rules) of 1 to 1 matching Destroyer to Sub for ability to decide whether excess SS gain the preemptive strike. Thats how we have it too except we use Larrys rules for sub detection.


  • Well, fixing subs needs a greater change I think. I’ve been toying with the idea of an expansion to AA50, putting it squarely in the “Advanced” category, even though I’ve been trying to keep changes to a minimum. It also includes Interceptor and Escort rules. To not upset those against house rules threads, I post over at the correct area:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12671.msg349840#msg349840


  • yes thanks for following the rules!

    To not upset those against house rules threads,

    They are directed to the proper section, because its easier to find stuff in the long run if related info is in one place and not all over every section. Its not upseting, but its messy way of doing business to have unrelated information in every thread and every section.


  • @Imperious:

    Destroyer trumps the sub now. The 2-2 unit is better for defense all around.

    This is actually not true. For 24 IPCs you could get 4 Subs or 3 Destroyers. The 4 subs would actually beat the 3 destroyers both on offense and defense given average rolls. However, since subs cannot be hit by planes they are still a pretty mediocre fodder unit.


  • The sub-problem is not only about subs being obsolete in AAR and AA50, it’s most about the battle of the Atlantic missing completely both in AAR and AA50. Even with subs attacking at 3 defending at 2 if it still costs only 6 ipc, I wouldn’t buy subs with Germany.
    Also if subs cost 3 ipc I wouldn’t buy subs with Germany.
    What the designers should do is something more radical. Maybe German subs attacking @3, subs cannot be attacked unless detected by DD’s, although all naval units (except transports) should still be able to defend against subs.
    Or only DD’s can attack and defend against subs.
    Maybe even ports should be implemented.


  • This is actually not true. For 24 IPCs you could get 4 Subs or 3 Destroyers. The 4 subs would actually beat the 3 destroyers both on offense and defense given average rolls. However, since subs cannot be hit by planes they are still a pretty mediocre fodder unit.

    Destroyers protect transports from air and subs do not.
    Destroyers negate subs and subs defend at 1
    Destroyers can hit air units, subs cant.

    To keep a fleet alive nobody is buying subs anymore 4 ones is nothing to 3 TWOS.

    The only reason to buy subs is to move thru enemy fleets and attack transports not protected by destroyers.

    Subs cant be hit by planes as long as you have a destroyer, making destroyers, not subs even more effective. IN every case destroyers are the unit that either negates, defends fleets better, protects transports better, kills planes batter. Ill take destroyers any day over subs at 2-1.  Subs cant even sub stall anymore making them even more useless.


  • Well, I think it’s safe to say that we all pretty much agree that Subs are almost useless and no sane player would buy them, especially with vastly superior DDs available for just a mere 2PCs more.

    Again, it just begs the question of whether something is missing.  How could SUBs have been designed to be so horrible?  I noticed on Larry’s site, that he reports getting most of the things he wanted, but not everything.  Analyzing what we know of the rules so far, the one underlying problem I see is the automatic detection of SUBs by a single DD.  I’m wondering if SUB Detection rules may have been thrown out in favor of this much more simplified, but extremely game-altering decision.

    Automatic SUB Detection by attacking DDs–> pretty much autokill of any defending SUB by DD + Air/Navy

    Automatic SUB Detection by defending DDs–> extremely limited opportunity for SUBs to attack transports in a fleet (as most will be defended by at least 1 DD)

    I’m still hoping there’s some game mechanic dealing with SUBs that we just don’t know about yet, but so far, it looks like (once again) we won’t see any SUB purchases for the OOTB edition and will have to rely on house rules to get a Battle of the Atlantic going.  As for which house rules, that’s for another time and place, but most simple would be a National Objective for Convoy Raid damage, and some non-automatic sub detection rules


  • I’m kind of disappointed that AA50 may just be AA Revised on steroids, as opposed to actually changing the gameplay…


  • @Imperious:

    yes thanks for following the rules!

    To not upset those against house rules threads,

    They are directed to the proper section, because its easier to find stuff in the long run if related info is in one place and not all over every section. Its not upseting, but its messy way of doing business to have unrelated information in every thread and every section.

    Why aren’t the House rules threads for each version of Axis and Allies in Child Boards inside of each of the different versions?  If I only play 1 or 2 versions of Axis and Allies, and I want to look at House Rules, then I must wade through all of the House Rules for each version all on the 1House Rules Board.  Of course, having someone go through all of the House Rules threads to determine under which version it belongs would be a little time-consuming, but it would be quite rewarding in the end.


  • @Bardoly:

    @Imperious:

    yes thanks for following the rules!

    To not upset those against house rules threads,

    They are directed to the proper section, because its easier to find stuff in the long run if related info is in one place and not all over every section. Its not upseting, but its messy way of doing business to have unrelated information in every thread and every section.

    Why aren’t the House rules threads for each version of Axis and Allies in Child Boards inside of each of the different versions?  If I only play 1 or 2 versions of Axis and Allies, and I want to look at House Rules, then I must wade through all of the House Rules for each version all on the 1House Rules Board.  Of course, having someone go through all of the House Rules threads to determine under which version it belongs would be a little time-consuming, but it would be quite rewarding in the end.

    I like this idea.  Instead of going through old ones, just put the old ones in an “old” house rule forum, where new topics are locked.  The posters can then transfer.


  • Why aren’t the House rules threads for each version of Axis and Allies in Child Boards inside of each of the different versions?  If I only play 1 or 2 versions of Axis and Allies, and I want to look at House Rules, then I must wade through all of the House Rules for each version all on the 1House Rules Board.  Of course, having someone go through all of the House Rules threads to determine under which version it belongs would be a little time-consuming, but it would be quite rewarding in the end.

    because its a bad idea: their is no need for a separate house rules section for each game. Its not hard to click and find what you need for a specific game because it is labeled as such. You can extrapolate that same argument of yours for ANYTHING.

    examples:

    whys is their no separate child board for X?

    X could equal:

    KJF threads
    KGF threads
    G1 strategy
    Allied Strategy
    What to buy?
    forever…

    hell no. forget such an idea. never.


  • @Imperious:

    This is actually not true. For 24 IPCs you could get 4 Subs or 3 Destroyers. The 4 subs would actually beat the 3 destroyers both on offense and defense given average rolls. However, since subs cannot be hit by planes they are still a pretty mediocre fodder unit.

    Destroyers protect transports from air and subs do not.
    Destroyers negate subs and subs defend at 1
    Destroyers can hit air units, subs cant.

    To keep a fleet alive nobody is buying subs anymore 4 ones is nothing to 3 TWOS.

    The only reason to buy subs is to move thru enemy fleets and attack transports not protected by destroyers.

    Subs cant be hit by planes as long as you have a destroyer, making destroyers, not subs even more effective. IN every case destroyers are the unit that either negates, defends fleets better, protects transports better, kills planes batter. Ill take destroyers any day over subs at 2-1.  Subs cant even sub stall anymore making them even more useless.

    Maybe I should have used the word cheap instead of mediocre to avoid any confusion, English is not my first language. Against other sea units Subs are better fodder units than Destroyers simply because of their lower price tag.

    Unfortunately, as you mention, the Subs ability to avoid getting hit by planes is often more of a problem than a benefit as it effectively destroys their to function as a decent fodder unit against planes. I would not buy a sub in the Atlantic, maybe in the Pacific.


  • All I have to say is that the new sub IS extremly much better than it used to be.

    -No auto-death due to a single fighter/bomber  -> A LOT safer subs

    -They cost 6 IPC. (25% reduction in price)

    -Without destroiers, fleets may be extremly wounderable. Examples of battles:
    2 subs versus 2 Carriers 4 fighters. Fighters cannot defend and the subs fights only the 2 carriers which fights with 2 twos.->
    The subs got opening fire-> sub advantage. And they can destroy the entire fleet with 2 simple subs.

    -Another issue would be ‘kill submarines’ or protect your ‘transports’. Can you do both? Not neccesarily, as
    3 transports protected by 1 destroyer would be a tasty meal for fighters/bombers

    -One sub versus 1 destroyer and 1 transport. 50/50 fight. However:
    if you loose, you lost 1 sub. If you win you kill a destroyer AND a transport!
    Conclusions: Subs can strike down BOTH unprotected transports AND poorly defended transport!

    Another senario
    -3 subs at defence versus 1 destroyer, 2 fighters and 1 carrieer.
    Autowin for the attacker? Not neccessarily.
    Lets say that the subs kill 1 unit and the ofensive player kills 2 subs. The attacker won the battle?
    Not so fast? What do you do? Take out the destoryer and leave 1 carrieer to fight versus 1 sub? Not a god option is it.
    Do you kill your carrieer and keep on fighting with 2 fighters and 1 destroyer? This attack is in no way a risk free auto win battle. You risk loosing everything with only moderate unluck. In this senario it is somewhat under 50% to loose your carrieer,
    and the fleet remain is one single destroyer, which is a poor defence for your transports.

    –-
    Ok, Uk will probably seldom buy subs, but:

    As Italy i would love to buy a sub now and then. Whenever a british or US navy comes close, I can strike first!
    Often as italy you know that your subs cannot be striken down in defence there. And ofensivly subs is the best buy. You can kill whatever tries to come close.

    If japan dont build destroyers, US should build a few subs just to potentialy wreck havoc.

    Germany might build a few subs in the beginning cuz I doubt UK will be able to strike down their navy in the first round.


  • I’m feeling a shift in my opinions about subs.  Maybe they will be useful - for the loss i defense, the fact that they can’t be hit by planes without a destroyer is actually pretty big.


  • To keep a fleet alive nobody is buying subs anymore 4 ones is nothing to 3 TWOS.

    This is simply incorrect!
    I did not do the math to prove it (I dont bother), but I did a small dice test.
    attacker: 3 destroyers:
    Defender: 4 submarines
    –-
    The subs won 7 out of 10 times!

    This does not prove this statement

    This is actually not true. For 24 IPCs you could get 4 Subs or 3 Destroyers. The 4 subs would actually beat the 3 destroyers both on offense and defense given average rolls. However, since subs cannot be hit by planes they are still a pretty mediocre fodder unit.

    but it atleast proves that saying that 4 ones is NO match for 3 twos is completly incorrect.


  • I’m feeling a shift in my opinions about subs.  Maybe they will be useful - for the loss i defense, the fact that they can’t be hit by planes without a destroyer is actually pretty big.

    Great :) Cuz subs are far better this time around than any other verson of A&A.
    The navy part of A&A is not perfect, but atleast the new submarine are more interesting than they used to be.  In my view the biggest problem is that BIGGER navies will autokill SMALLER navies.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    You could run the test easily on Frood.  Run 3 Artillery attacking 4 Bombers and you get: 56.3% chance your destroyers (Artillery) survive and 41.2% chance your submarines (Bombers) survive.  That means a 2.5% chance of mutual destruction give or take, over 10,000 battles with 3@2 vs 4@1.

    In otherwords, 3 destroyers attacking 4 submarines is a crap shoot.  A toss up if you will.

    That said, I will again point out that you can look at the individual ability of a unit to sink another to get an alternative representation.  The biggest problem I have had with dice calculators is that they are too rigidly set on the binomial distribution.  For them you can only pass or fail.  They cannot take into account the odds of each result passing on a more subjective basis (which is why I am known as the fleet killer by some.)  When it comes to fleet battles in particular (because its the only place you have units that can be hit and not die) it becomes necessary to look at just how likely it is you could get more or less hits.  Or, in other words, how wide is that variance from the mean?

    A destroyer rolling at 2 or less is going to have a flatter, wider bell curve than a submarine defending at 1 will.  Even more so if you start adding in battleships to absorb hits, etc.  On the flip side, you can get more units and more chances with submarines than with destroyers.

    Anyway, just thought I would check the numbers, then I started to ramble.


  • With AA50 subs now having a first strike capability in each round of combat (if no enemy destroyer is present) at only 6 IPCs I think they do have a purpose. This sub will absolutely declaw the 2-hit battleship. And the bomber/sub combination can lay waste to capitol ships at a relatively low cost (assuming you always retreat when your subs are gone). ~ZP


  • Since nobody is ever going to buy subs as germany, maybe germany should get 1 free sub per round! ;)

    As for subs not being able to be used as fodder, it doesnt make much sense, if you order a sub to the surface to fight the good fight, it should do as its told!

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