Countering Kill UK First (Sealion + J1/J2 attack)?

[hcp]

@Argothair:

I think the heart of the issue is that as Britain, you need to be willing to compromise. If Germany spends 30 ipcs on fleet on G1, and you want to do Taranto, then you have to build a minimum of 6 ing, 1 ftr for defense in London. If Germany follows up with another Sea Lion build on G2, then you build at least another 6 inf, 1 ftr on uk2. At that point, Germany has no good options. There is so much defense in London that Germany’s odds for Sea Lion are terrible, but Germany has spent so much on fleet that Germany’s odds against Russia are also terrible. Yes, Italy will be doing ok, but with the taranto raid, Italy is not going to get huge enough fast enough to cover for Germany’s terrible position. So when Germany goes all out sea lion, then as the uk, you accept a slightly stronger italy to create a much weaker germany.

True, without the Persian factory, Japan can march into India by turn 4 or 5. That by itself isn’t enough to win the game for the Axis, though. With enough defense in London to hold London, and a relatively weak Germany, the US can afford to spend 80%+ of its income on building up a monster Pacific fleet that can link up with the Australian forces, first in the Solomon’s, and then later in New Guinea and Java/Borneo. Japan can take India, but with heavy US investment in the Pacific, they won’t take Sydney or Honolulu, so they won’t win.

If you see the Japanese attack on India coming, you can retreat to West India or Persia…and by turn 4, you should have the breathing room to build that Persia factory after all, so you may be able to hold the line at Persia. Russia can send down a couple of mechs from Stalingrad to help plug the hole, and your UK fighters can start heading southeast to Persia as soon as the sea lion threat is contained.

Thank you!  I see UK-Europe’s comprise issue now - as you said, with Taranto raid, in sealion’s case I am willing to accept a stronger Italy for a weaker Germany.

With scarce resource, I think UK-Pacific do not have many options.  I get used to build infantry until being SBR to zero production.  My only counterattack is perhaps on Shan state before Yunnan falls.  I sometimes read threats saying that India should be more aggressive.  Might I ask under what conditions we can consider the following options?

1. enter Yunnan to help Chinese defense?
2. move the seazone 39 transport to get DEI money, instead of activate Persia?
3. as Argothair mentioned, retreat to West India rather than staying in Calcutta?

[hcp]

@ShadowHAwk:

1 :) whenever it is suitable to do so. Basicaly unless J1, pose to be able to move in there. In case of a J1 consider if you can pose to get there. Since you can walk back to india in 1 round and into yunnan in 1 round japan at least has to do something to that stack.
2 :) just do it, if no J1 certain. With a J1 might still be worth it japan has to get it and might lose valuable land forces south ( or even air if your lucky ).
      Taking persia helps clear the med and the middle east but you clear that anyway. Taking the DEI slows japan down 1 round or more.
3 :) consider your losses, and the losses for japan. Sometimes staying and pulling more forces away is preferable to retreating and giving it to japan for free.

Thank you!  Might I ask three additional rules question that I encountered before - sorry that I lump quite a lot of questions in this thread:
(1) if UK2 takes Persia, in G3 London falls to Sealion.  Then can Russian turn Persia into a Russian territory in R4, and use the facilities there?  What happen if London is liberated in US5?
(2) Once Russia is in war with Japan, can I land Russian plants in India to help defense?
(3) What are the drawbacks of Russia declaring wars on Japan?  Does this affect the 6 Mongolia infantry Russia can get from Japanese attack? 
(4) If Russian attacks Japan through Tsinghai and Siking first, can Russia still get the 6 Mongolia infantry in case Japanese attacks from Mongolia-adjunct territories?

[taamvan]

1)  Once their capitol is dead, you are no longer “liberating” for your ally you are taking for yourself.  This is the only time your partners can pull income from territories that once belonged to another friendly nation.  Once London is liberated, all of its original territories not held by the enemy revert back to the home team and this possibility ends.

“If the original controller’s (the power whose territory you just
liberated) capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which
you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture
the territory instead. You adjust your national production level,
and you can use any industrial complex, air base, and/or naval
base there until the original controller’s capital is liberated.”

2)  Yes.  There are no penalties for declaring war USSR–>Japan, so it is purely a political move.  As soon as you have activated war, you can fly in on that side of the board and should feel free to do so.  However, Germany must be at war with you in order for you to enter NW Persia, as that territory is on the Europe board and you are not allowed to freely declare against Germany.

“As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
a neutral power”“In other words, a state of war with
Japan lifts those restrictions from the Soviet Union on the Pacific map only,”

3. None.  It is only the attacking an enemy held territory that activates the troops or deactivates them.  The declaration of war itself only serves to greenlight your entry into china or the UK areas on the side of the board to the right of the board break.

4. As soon as Russia declares, it can start tooling around in China in the noncombat.  The only thing that it can’t do if it still wants the 6 guys is attack a Japanese controlled (control marker or original terr. still owned) that is adjacent to any Mongolian square.    Moving into Chahar doesn’t lose the troops, but attacking a Japan-controlled Chahar does.  If China owns Jehol, Russians noncomming int there do not implicate the Mongolians.  It is only when Russia attacks a “japan controlled Mongolia adjacent” square, or Japan attacks a “Russia controlled Mongolia adjacent” square that the troops are either lost to Russia or given to them, respectively.

"Also, if Japan attacks any Soviet-controlled territory that is adjacent to any Mongolian territory, all Mongolian territories that are still strict neutral or pro-Allies, or have joined the Allies as a result of a failed Japanese attack, are placed under the control of the Soviet Union
at the end of Japan’s Conduct Combat phase. "  "If the Soviet Union attacks Korea or any Japan-controlled territory bordering these Mongolian territories while Mongolia is still a strict neutral, Mongolia will remain neutral and not ally itself with the Soviet Union.

It took a long time and a lot of explanation before I fully understood all these nuances, probably still don’t have them exactly right.

hth

[taamvan]

1b) and so yes, you do get to use + repair their former factory, until their capitol is liberated.

[hcp]

@taamvan:

1)  Once their capitol is dead, you are no longer “liberating” for your ally you are taking for yourself.  This is the only time your partners can pull income from territories that once belonged to another friendly nation.  Once London is liberated, all of its original territories not held by the enemy revert back to the home team and this possibility ends.

“If the original controller’s (the power whose territory you just
liberated) capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which
you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture
the territory instead. You adjust your national production level,
and you can use any industrial complex, air base, and/or naval
base there until the original controller’s capital is liberated.”

2)  Yes.  There are no penalties for declaring war USSR–>Japan, so it is purely a political move.  As soon as you have activated war, you can fly in on that side of the board and should feel free to do so.  However, Germany must be at war with you in order for you to enter NW Persia, as that territory is on the Europe board and you are not allowed to freely declare against Germany.

“As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
a neutral power”“In other words, a state of war with
Japan lifts those restrictions from the Soviet Union on the Pacific map only,”

3. None.  It is only the attacking an enemy held territory that activates the troops or deactivates them.  The declaration of war itself only serves to greenlight your entry into china or the UK areas on the side of the board to the right of the board break.

4. As soon as Russia declares, it can start tooling around in China in the noncombat.  The only thing that it can’t do if it still wants the 6 guys is attack a Japanese controlled (control marker or original terr. still owned) that is adjacent to any Mongolian square.    Moving into Chahar doesn’t lose the troops, but attacking a Japan-controlled Chahar does.  If China owns Jehol, Russians noncomming int there do not implicate the Mongolians.  It is only when Russia attacks a “japan controlled Mongolia adjacent” square, or Japan attacks a “Russia controlled Mongolia adjacent” square that the troops are either lost to Russia or given to them, respectively.

"Also, if Japan attacks any Soviet-controlled territory that is adjacent to any Mongolian territory, all Mongolian territories that are still strict neutral or pro-Allies, or have joined the Allies as a result of a failed Japanese attack, are placed under the control of the Soviet Union
at the end of Japan’s Conduct Combat phase. "  "If the Soviet Union attacks Korea or any Japan-controlled territory bordering these Mongolian territories while Mongolia is still a strict neutral, Mongolia will remain neutral and not ally itself with the Soviet Union.

It took a long time and a lot of explanation before I fully understood all these nuances, probably still don’t have them exactly right.

hth

Thank you for your detailed explanation!  Some follow-up questions:

1. Can I say that, after the first control marker is placed in a neutral territory (e.g. Persia, Finland) - then throughout the whole game such territory becomes a new “original territory” for the power who places the control marker on it the first time?

1b) For example, consider the story: UK2 gets Persia => G3 success Sealion => R3 gets Persia => R4 builds Persian factory => R5 produces three tanks => US5 liberate London

Then at the moment when London is liberated (US5), is that all things in Persia revert to UK-Europe control?  A UK control marker is placed on Persia at that moment?

2. When Russia is at war with Japan but not Germany, can Russia fly a plane first from Moscow to Szechwan/Yunnan, then from Szechwan/Yunnan to India?  Does UK-Pacific’s relationship with Japan affect whether Russia can fly the plane to India?

[simon33]

Isn’t hcp talking about a situation where UK activates Persia UK2? If the UK does that, the USSR can’t liberate it even if London falls. So the answer to (1) is no.

taamvan is referring to a situation where an axis power takes an originally UK territory, let’s say Egypt. If that happens and there is a sea lion in effect, any one of the allies can take Egypt for itself. It does not liberate Egypt. For a territory like Persia with neutral original ownership, this rule doesn’t have any effect. It is owned by however last conquered or liberated it. If the USSR did indeed take Egypt and build a factory on it, the USSR could use said factory but once London was liberated the ownership of Egypt immediately reverts to UK Europe. Just not for Persia.

[WILD BILL]

@hcp:

Thank you for your detailed explanation!� Some follow-up questions:

1. Can I say that, after the first control marker is placed in a neutral territory (e.g. Persia, Finland) - then throughout the whole game such territory becomes a new “original territory” for the power who places the control marker on it the first time?

1b) For example, consider the story: UK1 gets Persia => G3 success Sealion => R3 gets Persia => R4 builds Persian factory => R5 produces three tanks => US5 liberate London

Then at the moment when London is liberated (US5), is that all things in Persia revert to UK-Europe control?� A UK control marker is placed on Persia at that moment?

2. When Russia is at war with Japan but not Germany, can Russia fly a plane first from Moscow to Szechwan/Yunnan, then from Szechwan/Yunnan to India?� Does UK-Pacific’s relationship with Japan affect whether Russia can fly the plane to India?

1. First off neutral territories are not considered to be original territories of the power that activates or captures them. Neutral territories are never liberated, they can only be captured. If Persia is activated by the UK then the only way Persia could become Russian is if the axis captured it from UK, and Russia took it from the axis. At that point it would be Russian and the liberation of London wouldn’t bring it back to the UK. BTW this is also how the DEI (Dutch East Indies) work. If the UK activates one of the Dutch islands and the Japanese capture it, but the US takes it from the Japanese it is now a US territory.

2. Once the Russians are at war with Japan the Russians have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. So yes you can fly Russian planes through China to get to India even if the UK/Japan are still at peace because the UK is not a neutral power.

[simon33]

@WILD:

2. Once the Russians are at war with Japan the Russians have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. So yes you can fly Russian planes through China to get to India even if the UK/Japan are still at peace because the UK is not a neutral power.

Your first point is correct but this one isn’t.

@Pac:

As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
a neutral power (see “Powers Not at War with One Another,” page 15) on the other map

[weddingsinger]

@ShadowHAwk:

@Caesar:

Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?

You should take 10 ipcs turn 1, but your taking them from the allies ( except france ). You take 7 from UK-Pac and 2 from US. thats a 18 ipc swing right there.

Wouldn’t it be a -12 swing since the U.S. will get +30 for entering the war?  Or +25 or whatever, since Japan probably takes the Philippines

[simon33]

^ -18 assuming the Japanese take The Philippines. +20 NO income -2 because The Philippines are a 2IPC territory.

@Caesar:

Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?

You would definitely ignore USSR with a J1.

It’s -6 for Japan, +18 for USA, -7 for UK_Pac and +1 for ANZAC, approximately. These calcs miss the main game though which is the strategic positioning that a J1 DOW offers. Also, without taking FIC J1 you can’t build an IC there J2, so if you want to do this even with a J2 DOW you are still losing that 8IPC.

That -7 for UK_Pac punches above its weight.

[WILD BILL]

@simon33:

@WILD:

2. Once the Russians are at war with Japan the Russians have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. So yes you can fly Russian planes through China to get to India even if the UK/Japan are still at peace because the UK is not a neutral power.

Your first point is correct but this one isn’t.

@Pac:

As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
a neutral power (see �Powers Not at War with One Another,� page 15) on the other map

So simon why is this point wrong? If the Russians are at war with Japan by the rule you quoted they would have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. Russia DOW on Japan in many games to send units into China to help prop them up. The UK has some restrictions about moving units into China if not at war w/Japan, but isn’t a neutral power so there are no restrictions stopping Russian planes from landing in India. So I see no problem with Russian units migrating to India through China.

[simon33]

Sorry, must have misread something in there.

You were right on both points.

[hcp]

@WILD:

If the Russians are at war with Japan by the rule you quoted they would have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. Russia DOW on Japan in many games to send units into China to help prop them up. The UK has some restrictions about moving units into China if not at war w/Japan, but isn’t a neutral power so there are no restrictions stopping Russian planes from landing in India. So I see no problem with Russian units migrating to India through China.

Thanks Simon and Wild Bill for the answers and discussion.  I learn more about the rules now.

I would like to try sending Russian units to help China in my next game.  I am thinking the following Russia+China+UK defense strategy against J1 attack:

Turn 1
R1: Moscow fighter, Volgograd tank+mech => Sikang

C1: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 4 inf in Szechwan

UK1:
India 1 tack+fighter to Middle East (Middle Earth strategy)
Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia
India 5 inf, 1 art=> Burma
Burma fighter=> India
Malaya 3 inf => Shan state
India build 5 inf

ANZAC1: Malaya inf => Shan state

Turn 2
R2: Sikang fighter => India (there will be R+UK fighters in India to intercept J2 st. bomber SBR)

C2: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 5 inf in Szechwan

UK2: (consider the case J1 take Borneo, build 3 transports; J2 build MIC and NB in FIC; move 3 transports to sz36)
Burma 7 inf => India
Shan state 3 inf => Burma
India build 4 inf
(if no Sealion, build Persia factory)

ANZAC2: Shan state inf => Burma

At the end of turn 2, the following units will be available to retake Yunnan from Japan:
Szechwan: China 5+inf, 1 fighter
Burma: UK 3 inf, 1 art
Sikang: Russia 1 tank, 1 mech

I think the two strategic keys for Russia is to help defend against st. bomber SBR, and prevent J3 take and hold Yunnan, hopefully these can delay Japan by a turn.
Such strategy tries to utilize Russia’s units before Germany/Italy DoW.  Of course, it might invite Germany to start Barbarossa in G2 (or normal G3).  If this is the case, I will fly the India fighter back to Samara in R3/R4.  But this also means that the UK Persian factory can start pumping tank+mech to India, and arrive India by UK5.  Again the key is not to let Japan hold Yunnan in J3.
(If Germany goes for Sealion, then Russia builds tank+mech in Volgograd, and pump the UK-Persian factory equivalent amounts to India from R3 onwards.)

Do you have any comments on how to improve the strategy, or kindly point out things I miss/drawback? (Perhaps a lot of experienced players have tried this before.)

PS.  Mr.GeneralHandGre’s UK “Middle Earth” strategy: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39611.0

[Argothair]

If you transport Indian troops to Africa on Uk1, how do you also take Persia on uk1 to prepare for your uk2 factory?

[hcp]

@Argothair:

If you transport Indian troops to Africa on Uk1, how do you also take Persia on uk1 to prepare for your uk2 factory?

Thank you Argothair.  My mistake - it should be “transport troops to Middle East” (corrected in Reply#28).

Turn 1  UK
Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia

[simon33]

I haven’t had much success with strategies like the one proposed except when Germany spends some of its money on fleet. That gives ussr a bit ight breathing room to do something.

Why don’t you just build a third fighter in Calcutta to defend against sbr? It is well spent.

[hcp]

@simon33:

Why don’t you just build a third fighter in Calcutta to defend against sbr? It is well spent.

Because I am worrying about a quick J3 Indian Crunch.  I am preparing for the following Japanese movement:
J1 move 1(2) inf from Kiangsi to Borneo, move 3 inf, 1 art from Japan/Korea/Manchuria to Philippines; J1 build 3 transports
J2 move 3 inf, 2 art, 1 tank from Japan/Korea/Manchuria to sz36; J2 build naval base in FIC; concentrate all carrier groups in sz36 (each with 1 tact, 1 fighter), bombers in Siam, block sz38 with some fleet
J3 attack India with 6-8 inf, 3 art, 1 tank, 3 tact, 3 fighters, 2 bombers (can have offshore bombardments)

According to the build & movement below (no Russian fighter to India), I will have
16 inf, 1 art, 3 AA, 1 fighter in India for defense.
This should just be enough to defend India.  If I build a UK fighter in India, then I don’t have enough infantry to defend India.

Middle East-Indian Wall strategy
[[to counter J1 attack, no matter Germany goes for sealion or barbarossa]]
Turn 1
C1: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 4 inf in Szechwan

UK1:
India 1 tack+fighter to Middle East (Middle Earth strategy)
Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia
India 5 inf, 1 art=> Burma
Burma fighter=> India
Malaya 3 inf => Shan state
India build 5 inf

ANZAC1: Malaya inf => Shan state

Turn 2
C2: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 5 inf in Szechwan

UK2: (consider the case J1 take Borneo, build 3 transports; J2 build MIC and NB in FIC; move 3 transports to sz36)
Burma 7 inf, 1 art => India
Shan state 3 inf => Burma
India build 4 inf
(if no Sealion, build Persia factory)

ANZAC2: Shan state inf => Burma

Turn 3:
China: aim at taking Yunnan

@simon33:

I haven’t had much success with strategies like the one proposed except when Germany spends some of its money on fleet. That gives ussr a bit ight breathing room to do something.

But I agree with you, in case Germany goes for barbarossa, Russia should focus on wars in Eastern Front.  Again Yunnan and India worries me.  The above implies that China should defend J3 take and hold Yunnan by itself…