New Axis & Allies Global War Variant (free map)

[deepblue]

Eastern Front

In 12/41 the Germans had pushed all the way to the doorstep of Moscow.  To reflect this I put the Baltic States, Byelorussia, East Poland, Western & Eastern Ukraine, Crimea and Western Russia under Germany’s control.

Orel-Kursk is now Western Russia.*

While on this subject, I put Greece under Italian control.  This will help bolster Italy’s holdings after losing eastern Africa.  Historically after Germany conquered Greece the majority of Greece was put under Italian occupation.

Africa

All of Libya is now under Italian control.  Historically Italy lost Libya by now but the Germans had taken it back, minus Tobruk.  To support Italy as a viable player nation I left in the hands of the Italians.

Abyssinia and Italian Somaliland were under British control by this time.

Abyssinia is now spelled correctly.

Belgian Congo was never neutral so they are now under British control.

Mozambique was neutral and the map now reflects that.

Sahara is now named Niger.

The region labeled Cairo is now labeled Lower Egypt.*

Libya is now Fezzan.

Madagascar was under German control at this time, the map now reflects that.

[losttribe04]

Hey all,

The biggest thing that this game dynamic at all with is types of INF or ARM. I suppose that if thats what I was looking for I should head down to the A&A Mini area. All that aside for the most part Russian INF were all snipers not ground pounders. German Tanks were in CAV units not ARM regiments these are two totally diffrent styles of fighting but they are both covered under a general umbrella what can you do?

[pdel21]

Deepblue,

What nations does Italy now hold with these changes?  We need to be sure that it is still playable as a nation.

[losttribe04]

Hay Gang,

Heres something I want to ask you. What is it you want to change about the game so I can channel my focus? For example just the map?

If thats the case I would make those city circles for NYC, San Diego, and Chicago as well. It’s not fair that the rest of the world get so many when those places are also heavily populated.

[losttribe04]

Hey,

(Sorry I think in fragments)

Somthing else to look into would be the St. Lawerce sea way. it starts in Main and devides the US from Canada. It follows northern New York into lake Ontario. From there all the great lakes are connected.

The reason I bring this up is becuase meany a Sherman came from Detroit through the sea way into the Atlantic.

[pdel21]

In my opinion, it is not relevant having cities like that on the map if we just went by heavily populated cities as being the criteria for making its way onto the map, then there are plenty of cities in the world that belong on it befor NYC, Chicago, SD an so on.  If there is no historical relevance, and it was not in the thick of the war, it shouldn’t be there.

[deepblue]

@pdel21:

What nations does Italy now hold with these changes?  We need to be sure that it is still playable as a nation.

Currently,

Italy, Northern & Southern Italy, Greece, Sardinia, Sicily, Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, and Fezzan.

This is not set in stone and may need to be “worked” a bit.  I am supportive of a playable Italy.

[deepblue]

Europe

Austria is now labeled correctly.

Germany is now labeled.

Italy is now labeled.

Italy’s borders have been changed to look more natural.

Holland is now labeled Netherlands.

In reference to Italy’s flag I was unable to find reference to what pdel21 posted to the thread.  I did find reference to Italy’s flag during this time as the same three color flag but with a coat of arms on the white stripe.  I tried to reduce the coat of arms I found but the starting pictures were to big, so by the time I reduced it to fit on the map’s flag it was blurry and looked bad.  So at this point the Italian flag has been unchanged.

[pdel21]

Deepblue,

What of Albania (and more importantly, the 2 points)?

I am Italian, trust me when I say the tricolore that you see on this map was not used during WWII.  The map with the shield on it was.  However, what I posted to this site wasn’t the flag.  It is the roundel that appears on the planes.  This is no different than the star for the Americans, the british roundel  (yellow, blue, white and red), the German Cross.  For the sake of consistency, the roundel with the fascia on it for Italy would be more appropriate.  It is also used in the game TripleA which is an AA variant for the computer.  I think this would add a nice touch to the map.

[deepblue]

pdel21,

Sorry, left Albania off the list, but trust me they are firmly controlled by Italy.

Roundel…. Oh… that makes more sense now.

Sorry for the confusion, thanks for the clarification.

[Imperious Leader]

Your map is not historically correct. The territories listed as German controlled in africa are not correct. those were either Vichy/ british controlled-captured/free french
and Vichy was independant. after the french failed to defend against the allied landings in torch, Hitler went in a rage and removed vichy france from the map and took it out. But before that Vichy was independant.

The territories listed as Italian territories in africa were allready (but just barely) recaptured by british forces before barbarossa

Get a map showing who had what in june 22 1941 and make it accurate.

That will help you on the names and grammer… some of your listed nations were not called what you have them listed in 1941… many of them came after ww2…

[pdel21]

Imperious,

While I agree with you on the fact that the map is not historically correct, some concessions need to be made for simplicity’s sake.  If I read between the lines of what you have typed, I take it to mean that Vichy should be included as a separate player in this game.  That would just add confusion to the board.  If we were going to put Vichy in, then Syria needs to be Vichy also, which further adds to the confusion.  I think it is simpler for game play to have those areas in Africa labelled as German, much like in the real AA where Algeria is in German hands.  Algeria was never in German hands, but for game play, it was simpler.  I think that deepblue mentioned somewhere that Madagascar was now part of Germany.  That I disagree with, and should probably go to the Brits for game play (again like the original AA board).

With regards to the Italians, if we back the date up 1.5 months, Italy can still hold the Eastern Africa Nations of Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland, since the Duke of Aosta surrendered toward the end of May, and the army lasted until November of that year in Gondar.  As I mentioned to deepblue, we need to have Italy playable, and those nations were part of the Italian “Empire” for part of the war, and would contribute to the necessary IPCs.  I would be more comfortable with the board starting with Italy having those nations and not having Greece.

Also I have provided the correct names to many of the locations already in an earlier post (either on page 2 or 3 or the listings…I think).  If there are some other obvious ones, please share them with deepblue…

[deepblue]

Imperious,

I am in agreement with pdel21 on Vichy France.  No need to add confusion to the map.  Like the current AA game Vichy has been rolled up with Germany.

I have a map, and it is from December 1941, nowhere have I mention June.  As I stated earlier I have been working from the prospective of December of 1941.

With that in mind Madagascar is not taken by the British until May of 1942.  So I don’t understand the issue there.

Concerning Northern Africa: It is my understanding that Rommel is not stopped until the first battle of El Alamein which takes place in July of 1942.

pdel21,

I originally had the map set at an earlier date to accommodate the Italian holdings in eastern Africa.  But after review of the ramifications across the other regions of the world, I decided to move the date forward.

Some reasons why:
British capture Mogadishu and Italian Somaliland in February of 1941.

Yugoslavia and Greece have not been conquered yet.
Thailand is still independent.
I’m not sure if Finland is considered axis yet.
This requires more time for the Americans to enter the war.
The Middle East is still in flux.
Eastern front will change drastically.

These are some reasons why I changed my mind and moved the date of the map forward.

But this is not set in stone.  I am willing to discuss this further.  I felt that the current date/time would be better suited.  With Italy in control of Greece this only reduced Italy IPCs by one which can be easily fixed.

Thanks for input.

[Imperious Leader]

OK first off i now understand this game begins in Dec 41 when previously i thought it began in June 41 ( which would have served your position better)

If we were going to put Vichy in, then Syria needs to be Vichy

The Levant States remained part of Vichy until about early June of 41 when they were occupied by British forces

Conclusion: this is 1/2 year before your game starts

In Aug 1940 the Italians tried to attack the British in the Somaliland and did nothing … latter  In march/April  of 1941 the Brits pushed them back and captured Abyssinia and Italian Somaliland.

Conclusion: this is eight months before your game starts

Madagascar was also a Vichy territory until  may-september 1942 the french fought and were defeated. In November the last stand had surrendered as well. 99% of the nation was in allied hands by the end of september 42.

Conclusion: this is after your game begins but Vichy territory was neutral, only an indemnity was paid the the Reich and no actual shipments of resources ever made transfer to any German ports ( axis should not be getting this money)

AS i stated Vichy was a neutral nation under some major economic demands because Germany blamed the France for starting the war and wanted them to pay reperations.

Vichy territory should be white neutral territories

Finland was clearly under german influence by early 1941

You have huge tracts of French territory in africa as if its under german control…This is totally bogus. All those territories with the exception of Morroco, Tunisia, and Algeria were free french control administration under Degualle and his British partners recaptured all of this by Nov 1940. Before that it was Vichy.

One of the major reasons why in Nov 1942 Hitler launched his attack against Vichy, was because the vichy forces had no desire to really defend against the allies… most of these allied ‘conquests’ were rather bloodless. That shows the fact that Vichy was not really interested in doing what Hitler wanted.

Thailand was attacked in Dec 41

Only French indo china was part of Japan before the games start.

If your making a game about History at least get the History part of it correct. Their are other ways to balance who has what.

[pdel21]

If Vichy is to be neutral, then I can live with that.  In this way, it is treated as any other neutral nation (for game play), so the territories will be grouped in with the others rather than being a separate player nation.  This only involves changing the colour and moving the entries on the German set up card to the Neutral Card.

deepblue, would you mind posting a jpg of your map in progress for comment…this way we can all participate in ironing out issues like this.  If not the map, then perhaps a listing of who holds what at your start date?

[pdel21]

After a bit more thought……

If we are to turn all Vichy territory neutral, and have them subject to the neutral rules for the game, then Morocco, Northern Algeria, and Tunisia must become objectives for the Germans or Italians, otherwise they will be defeated with relative ease in the event of an amphibious landing.  If they are axis objectives, then in my opinion (and everyone else may see this differently), this may prove to very detrimental to the axis.  One of the nice things about the board as it is, is that it is more balanced between axis and allies, giving each a realistic chance to win.  If Germany/Italy need to attack those Vichy nations, they may lose some infantry and get spread to thin…result is advantage allies.  What if Morocco, Northern Algeria and Tunisia were left in German hands at the start of the game, an impassable barrier for the Sahara (as Craig  Yope suggested) and the remaining colonies in Africa that were German were turned neutral to represent Vichy.

I am very interested to get Craig’s opinion on all that has transpired here in the last day or so.

[losttribe04]

When do you think all this information will be compiled and a prototype map made?

[Imperious Leader]

If we are to turn all Vichy territory neutral, and have them subject to the neutral rules for the game, then Morocco, Northern Algeria, and Tunisia must become objectives for the Germans or Italians, otherwise they will be defeated with relative ease in the event of an amphibious landing.  If they are axis objectives, then in my opinion (and everyone else may see this differently), this may prove to very detrimental to the axis.  One of the nice things about the board as it is, is that it is more balanced between axis and allies, giving each a realistic chance to win.  If Germany/Italy need to attack those Vichy nations, they may lose some infantry and get spread to thin……result is advantage allies.  What if Morocco, Northern Algeria and Tunisia were left in German hands at the start of the game, an impassable barrier for the Sahara (as Craig  Yope suggested) and the remaining colonies in Africa that were German were turned neutral to represent Vichy.

The Idea is Revised that does not allow units to pass south of the Sahara is a good way to deal with the issue.

As far as axis objectives… only Tunis ( in Tuinisia) would serve as the only VC candidate due to its importance to the Axis for supply. The Vichy forces would be defending against allied attacks and present a buffer of sorts for the axis. This can only benifit them. Of course if they decide to attack Vichy then they are in fact in a worse position because of the allocation of infantry lost over marginal value territories.

The last idea would be realistic… German forces were allowed to roam around Morocco, Northern Algeria, and Tunisia for the purpose of supply to the forward positions. That would be historically correct.

What must not happen under any ideas is the idea that germany somehow has free reign in all of those other territories south of the sahara that were formerly french colonies.

Also, the italian territories in east africa should not be italian. The italians should be compensated by other means… but turning albania into 2 IPC dont look right.

Make sicily and/or  sardinia worth something instead

[pdel21]

Imperious,

I agree with you on one point, and this about not allowing Germany free reign south of the Sahara, which is why Craig suggested the desert acting as a unpassable barrier.
The Germans never were in those places south of the Sahara historicall.

[losttribe04]

pdel21,

They may have never been south of those places historically; however, are you going to let players play the game or are you going to have a reenactment pageant?

Historically Japan never stormed Moscow but in the game I have seen it happen.