Rules question

[jsp4563]

Scenario:

Japan had 1 CV with 2 planes off the coast of FIC and is attacked by british naval forces sinking the carrier and losing their entire fleet.  Britain is also attacking FIC from India.

Question:  Can the surving japanese planes land in FIC or are they lost?

[jsp4563]

I also have another question.  If you have moved units to conduct an attack but haven’t actually begun the attack, can you cancel the attack altogether or do you have to go at least 1 round before retreating?

[U-505]

The answer to question one is yes, provided FIC remains in Japanese hands after combat. They are NOT allowed to land and participate in the land combat but, they are also not immeidiately destroyed because they can’t land in the contested territory. So even if the naval combat goes before the land combat your surviving fighters are safe until your opponents non-combat phase. (pg 18 of LHTR states “If any fighter has no place to land by the end of the NON-COMBAT move phase, it is detroyed”).

Question 2, I’m not sure. I’m almost positive that it is in the rules somewhere but I didn’t reread all the way through.
I would say yes you have to go at least one round because it prevents you from retreating from a battle if you discover your other battles have turned out unfavorably.

[newpaintbrush]

In your example, if Japan lost FIC to UK, the fighters would die.

If you declare multiple combats, and want to call one off, if it’s before any combats were actually rolled, you might be able to call it off (for etiquette reasons, you’d probably be OK).

But if you did one combat, then wanted to do something in another combat, your opponent could say that you wanting to retreat from the second combat was a result of the result of the first combat - so you probably would NOT be able to do it.  In other words - no retreating before combat.  Retreat after one round of combat as normal.

[JamesG]

I can’t find the specific rule either, but I do not think you can “call off” a combat.  You must fight at least one round.  LHTR even notes that in the case of an amphibious assault with ground and air units, the air units MUST fight at least one round of combat even if the ground portion of the attack is ‘aborted’ by the offloading transports being sunk or forced to retreat from the sea zone.

[Jennifer]

I’ve found, in classic games anyway, that provided you are only “retreating” and only to the locations the units originated from, you can call off the combat and loose all movement for those units just as you would loose their movement had they actually opened fire.

It seems to be the win/win situation for both sides.  This way a player doesn’t have to extend him/herself with a declared combat if the supporting attacks went badly, meanwhile, the enemy get’s the satisfaction of the win which is not stolen by redeploying forces expected to fight to bolster defenses elsewhere.

So, say UK was attacking Karelia from Fin/Nor and an Amphibios assault from UK with support of a BB and AC fighters.  If that attack was called off all forces would return to the exact place they came from.  Inf/Art/Arm would go back on the transports (to be landed on UK), the fighters would land on the AC, and troops would return to Fin/Nor.

[jsp4563]

The reason I ask is this situation came up in a game I was playing a couple of days ago.  I (UK) sunk my friends carrier with a lucky sub shot his position was that he had to immediately land his planes since combat/non-combat movement only applied to the attacker.  I couldn’t find anything to dispute his claim (we have a gentlemen’s agreement that "when in doubt it’s allowed unless you can point to a specific part of the rules that say otherwise).  With 2 new fighters in FIC I called off my attack which he disputed, but could back up.

[jsp4563]

With 2 new fighters in FIC I called off my attack which he disputed, but could back up.

I meant he could not back his claim.

[SSG Rock]

Good question JSP.  I’m glad we have some pretty sharp knives in this drawer!  I for one appreciate the knowledge and research you “answer people” put into the forum. :-D

[Jennifer]

@jsp4563:

The reason I ask is this situation came up in a game I was playing a couple of days ago.  I (UK) sunk my friends carrier with a lucky sub shot his position was that he had to immediately land his planes since combat/non-combat movement only applied to the attacker.  I couldn’t find anything to dispute his claim (we have a gentlemen’s agreement that "when in doubt it’s allowed unless you can point to a specific part of the rules that say otherwise).  With 2 new fighters in FIC I called off my attack which he disputed, but could back up.

In this case the fighters would move during the non-combat phase, not immediately and thus would not be able to support the defense of FIC.  Should FIC fall and no other landing arrangements would be made, they would be casualties of war.

[Sankt Hallvard]

Ok, here is the deal regarding both your questions(which have received several erroneous answers):

1. You can NOT retreat before a combat has begun. In phase 3 you make your combat moves, ie. move your chips around or write in a post: “combat moves as follows…” THEN in phase 4 you conduct all these combats, meaning you have to roll for at least 1 round of combat before you are given the option to retreat.

From LHTR1.3:

PHASE 4: CONDUCT COMBAT
In this phase, you resolve combat in each space that contains your units and units from the opposing side. Complete all combat moves before resolving any combat. (An exception is an amphibious assault, in which sea combat must be handled before land combat. See “Special Combats” for more information.)

2. If an attacker retreats or is destroyed in a naval battle leaving the defending fighters alive these fighters can move 1 space to a friendly territory to land. This fighter will “hover” in the sea zone until the end of non-combat move phase, in which it must land or be destroyed.

So in your case those fighers can not participate in the defense of FIC in addition to defending the sea zone. Furthermore, they will drop from the skies and sink if you manage to capture FIC. (Unless he has another AC in one of the surrounding sea zones) Good move!

[jsp4563]

Ok, I finally located the relevant section regarding fighters.  They so thoughtfully put it under step 8: Capture Territory (I don’t know why I didn’t think to look there from the beginning)  :evil:

Page 11 Step 8: Capture Territory paragraph 3:

Air units can never capture a territory. If your attack force has only air units remaining, you can’t occupy the territory you attacked, even if there are no enemy units remaining. Air units must return to a friendly territory (fighters may also land on a friendly carrier). They do so during the noncombat move phase. **Until then they stay at the space where they fought.

Thanks to eveyone for their input.**

[Jennifer]

Sankt,

we were trying to justify actions in a house rule.  In standard rules, yes, you’re right.

[Guest]

Sankt has the rules correct.

As for house rules, all bets are off on those (which is why discussion of them is reserved for the House Rules forum)