• @Afrika:

    Not quite. The UK Navy can land ground units in France and bombard before the German fighters based there ever have a chance to attack it.

    I don’t have time for the moment to take a deep look on it. But navy moves 2 sea zone were as a fighter (no LRA) have 4 in movement, which means 1 movement into the sea zone from land and another to to reach the navy you talk about, supposed to be in strike distance (2 sea zones away). Most likely it would take another 3 movements to return those fighters. So you are most likely right about that the BBs will attack France before the German air flotilla can attack that fleet. So what, the very next move the fleet will be wiped out from fighters stacked in Germany or some were else in Europe! I no that you will argue that US will move in to reinforce France and the UK fleet next to France before Germany can wipe out any navy. Well that’s it! This is the core of the KGF strategy. So what can Germany do to be prepared? My answer is that the Axis will go for UK and hunt them down in Australia/New Zealand and Asia and Africa. Then UK wont have so much to chuck chuck into France, just a big navy! In order to do so Germany go for Africa and put Russia mainly on hold (loose Scandinavia most likely to Russia). Germany should use fighters and infantry to do so, my air supremacy rule will help! Those fighters should be turned back to Germany as soon as Africa is conquered, which wont take more than 3 turns! At the beginning of the 4th turn UK will do that strike you are talking about and Germany will have some 10 fighters to use for that fleet you are talking about, but most likely also a  sub and a BB and a bomber! The German navy will be waiting at Gibraltar for the UK navy to move in right next to France (Western Europe), just within striking distance. And then the combat begins. Germany will probably loose many fighters and all navy units, but UK will not have anything left at all and US need to repurchase that Atlantic navy as well. However UK will never recover from such a setback, since the IPC level is almost into the red by now! Hmm… as I said I don’t have time for the exact scenario. So please don’t bother with any details! However I do believe for sure that my rules for Shore Bombardment and Air Supremacy and Convoy Raids will favor Axis in such a scenario (KGF)! It would be a tough fight. Just Imagine the Japanese fleet to round Canada and with Germany’s help go for UK in the 5th or 6th turn. US will go for defens when Japan close in with an armada next to Alaska and UK wont be prepared since all of its thoughts have been on France and the fall of Germany. So there wont much of a defens in UK and if Germany go for as many fighters as could be done at the 4th and 5th, without risking Russia knocking on its door to Germany. Germany use those fighters to soften UK up before the Japanese strike! Or Germany buy some transports in turn 5 to be loaded with tanks in turn 6 to attack UK after the Japanese attempt to take UK! Hmm… just a thought dude ;-)


  • @The:

    So you are most likely right about that the BBs will attack France before the German air flotilla can attack that fleet. So what, the very next move the fleet will be wiped out from fighters stacked in Germany or some were else in Europe!

    You said that the fighters would be stacked in France, so as to keep it away from Germany. If they were stacked in Germany, the navy can land there before the fighters ever get a chance to attack.

    And also, If you attack the Allied fleet that landed in France you run the added risk of flying across France’s AA gun.


  • @Afrika:

    @The:

    So you are most likely right about that the BBs will attack France before the German air flotilla can attack that fleet. So what, the very next move the fleet will be wiped out from fighters stacked in Germany or some were else in Europe!

    You said that the fighters would be stacked in France, so as to keep it away from Germany. If they were stacked in Germany, the navy can land there before the fighters ever get a chance to attack.

    And also, If you attack the Allied fleet that landed in France you run the added risk of flying across France’s AA gun.

    Africa dude, you don’t get it at all do you! The AA gun will be moved and the fighters on the move. I didn’t say I got the best strategy worked out, but I gave you an example of how to counter your KGF. And the bottom line is that Germany fighters will strike the UK fleet with the German navy waiting in Gibraltar. Germany is ready to sacrifice all navy units and a lot of fighters to take the Atlantic fleet, both UK and US!


  • On WHAT move? You said they’d be in France, so now it’s my(edit for clarity: UK) turn, and I land. When in this do you get to move anything? The navy can land on a province before any fighters can attack the fleet.


  • @Afrika:

    On WHAT move? You said they’d be in France, so now it’s my(edit for clarity: UK) turn, and I land. When in this do you get to move anything? The navy can land on a province before any fighters can attack the fleet.

    Yes, you are probablyt right about that. And have told you this before. The thing is that Germany would NOT have his fighters in France as said before due to that, but in Germant or Gibraltar or …. Dont you get it!!! I should have been giving you a complete scenario instead of a theory or philosophy, since you cannot handle it!

    Ok, UK takes France and maby are reinforced by US, but the hole thing is about the navy. Germany wipe that navy out by subs and a BB waitning in Gibraltar but mostly by the German fighters! And then read my replies before and you will find out how to handle Germany in such an KGF strategy!


  • @B.:

    The thing is that Germany would NOT have his fighters in France as said before due to that, but in Germant or Gibraltar

    @B.:

    Any time UK fleet will be in reach of Germany fighters in France he will attack if the odds strongly favor his force!

    However, IF the fighters are in Germany, Then UK doesn’t even bother landing in France I just take Germany when I am ready and build up a landing so that you can’t move all units built out of the capital in the meantime, which helps Russia immensely.

    If the fighters are are in France, Then UK can a land a ground force there. -edit and destroy the planes-

    The navy can land before the fighters get to attack, so they will be fighting land units and cost effective armor and infantry.


  • @Afrika:

    However, IF the fighters are in Germany, Then UK doesn’t even bother landing in France I just take Germany when I am ready and build up a landing so that you can’t move all units built out of the capital in the meantime, which helps Russia immensely.

    Nice try! UK invade Germany , hmmm…. That will only happen late in the game, turn 5 or 6, when anything might have happened. Like Russia have fallen or UK are so crippled by lost territories (IPCs), that Germany could counter that attackwith a stack of inf and fighters. Hard to see the future is…and you are so full of bull! :-P


  • i didnt read the whole thread cause im new here and that would take fucking forever……but i always pair my BBs with loaded carriers…now i have a tendency to end up with lots of carriers and BBs…now who in thier right mind would attack three fours and a three…or got forbid battle groups meet up and then i would have 6 fours and two threes? for japan its very easy to control the pacific with that navy set up. only price is you may lose the mainland. pay back would be putting the US on edge post-poning any invasion they would like to try.


  • @mofo:

    i didnt read the whole thread cause im new here and that would take fucking forever……

    this is the terminology i was refering to mo.  i’m no prude and it doesn’t particularly offend me but when typing it is a conscious effort to insert profanity unlike talking where it might slip.  i just don’t want someone with a different spin on strategy thrown off because they are wanting to express themselves

    as far as the thread itself, i like the bb if i have the cash, i never buy two dd instead unless they are going two different places.  free hit and 4/4.  it is unrealistic to compare 20 dd to 10 bb because that is a situation that won’t arise (i would think).  also the application of the two vessels is different.  i am with mofo in always trying to pair bb with cv.  i use dd as protection for trannie convoys from air raids.  and of course you always need one in your deep water fleets for sub protection.


  • What i miss is battleships that roll dice in an opening fire step, both in combat and shore bombard. Lets face it, Battleships had long range big guns that looped its barrage on the smaller ships before they was in range to fire back. :mrgreen:


  • Hey eagle… goto house rules and join our group… we are redoing revised! BTW why don’t you post that often here?


  • @Adlertag:

    What i miss is battleships that roll dice in an opening fire step, both in combat and shore bombard. Lets face it, Battleships had long range big guns that looped its barrage on the smaller ships before they was in range to fire back. :mrgreen:

    I partly agree, but what about planes attacking a BB? Should the BB have a opening fire at planes as well and do you find it realistic? I have two suggestions:

    1. Each BB roles two dice instead of one die, but the combat capability go down to 3/3.
    2. Each BB attack in the opening fire step of combat, for the first combat cycle only.

    Which of these rules do you like most?  :?


  • The issue isn’t battleships vs aircraft carriers: the issue is control of the air.

    Surface ships without air protection were vulnerable to air attack: the Japanese gave a very convincing demonstration of this early in the war, sinking two armored British warships (Repulse and Prince of Wales). And unlike Pearl Harbor, The British ships were at sea and underway, capable of maneuver and prepared for air defense. And yet they were sunk … quickly.

    Carriers themselves were vulnerable to air attack – though they proved more durable than many expected. But they could also deliver offensive blows from hundreds of miles away, long before heavy ships had closed to within range of island objectives. So one of the primary tasks assigned to the fast carrier forces was the destruction and suppression of enemy air forces. The fast carriers would sweep in ahead of the landing and bombardment forces, seize control of the air, and maintain control of the air until local ground-based forces could take over. This kind of offensive strike was the best possible defense, both for the carriers and the heavy ships.

    Carriers and battleships were fundamentally different weapons. A heavy ship could only throw its ordnance a few miles; a carrier could strike targets hundreds of miles away. A heavy ship had to stay in close proximity to its objective. A carrier 200 or 250 miles out had thousands of square miles of sea to disappear into, and would still be in striking range of its targets. The fleet carriers held the edge in terms of raw speed and maneuverability. And they were more difficult to put out of action than anticipated. A ship that’s hard to find, hard to hit, and capable of delivering heavy blows from hundreds of miles away is a formidable weapon.

    The quick fix for these facts is the optiional rule “Air Supremacy”:

    Air Supremacy
    Fighters attack or defend in the opening fire step of combat if no enemy fighters are present or remain in combat.


  • Hey you! are you gonna help us? (re: house section…me and Duke)


  • @Imperious:

    Hey you! are you gonna help us? (re: house section…me and Duke)

    I do, but please read all in this topic before you change any values for BBs or DDs!


  • I would say battleship are an underrated buy.  Sure destroyers win in that ONE big battle that happens once in about 3 games.  However, for me battleships are getting used practically every round.  They bombard, and in small engagements you don’t have to replace them.


  • ME too,

    I can be devastating when it comes on using BB’s :-P

    the only way I use DD is to make sure subs can’t use their special abilities…


  • @Axel:

    ME too,

    I can be devastating when it comes on using BB’s :-P

    the only way I use DD is to make sure subs can’t use their special abilities…

    What if DDs were able to shore bombard on a 2?


  • @B.:

    [What if DDs were able to shore bombard on a 2?
    [/quote]

    you mean like in a tech, a national advantage or is it a house rule?

    We never play with techs, national advantages or house rules, so this is a question that is irrelevant for me.
    but I think DD would be of more interest then :-)

    There are so many ways you can upgrade the one or the other:
    I can state it the other way around:
    what if a BB can defend on a 5?

    :-P


  • If you get Consolidated Bombard, then multiple DST’s might be worthwhile.  DSTs are also valuable as a cheap way to defend TRN fleets against AF.

    But one in an average fleet is enough (stops sub abilities).  And a DST navy makes sense IF you have enemy navy to kill or if you can;t afford BB’s.

    But… the BB is worth the cost if you have the $24 to spend… the free hit, the 4 attack and defense, the bombard…

    As someone said, in most battle,s the BB lives to fight again even after being hit, DSTs do not.  And, except for that Big Gulp move in the Pacific… that means more than additional units (and even then, if you have enough fodder, the BB is still the better buy)

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