thanks the FAQ is a big help
Favorite Unit?
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I chose “this question is stupid” :-? It is stupid because you couldn’t choose Transports. Without them you can’t do anything. Your precious infantry can’t swim across the English Channel nor the Atlantic. Whthout them the allies can do nothing. They are the units that make winning the war possible. Transports are the most important units of the game, period.
And now, who would only buy infantry in this game? Sure, INF are the backbone of your army, but nothing equals a well balanced force. You build infantry to lose them, nothing else!
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"Feld"marshall Hartmann (I’m just going to assume this is a pun of some sort and not a horrible misspelling), IMHO I do believe you are wrong on both counts.
I chose “this question is stupid” It is stupid because you couldn’t choose Transports. Without them you can’t do anything. Your precious infantry can’t swim across the English Channel nor the Atlantic. Whthout them the allies can do nothing. They are the units that make winning the war possible. Transports are the most important units of the game, period.
So what exactly are you going to move in your ‘precious’ transports? Inf can’t cross SZs and transports need something to transport, so apparently you need both (note, this does not agree with your ‘balanced force’ theory- more on this latter).
If you’re assuming the question implies that you can only buy one type of unit, I would definitely go with only buying infantry. Only buying transports would mean that you can only move the ground units you start with. This is not enough to win the game by a long shot. If you could buy only inf than at least Russia can put up a good fight against the Axis. Can you imagine the game if Russia couldn’t buy infantry???
For the record I don’t think the question assumed you could only buy 1 type of unit, just that it was asking what unit had the greatest overall value (aka what unit is most important to winning).
And now, who would only buy infantry in this game? Sure, INF are the backbone of your army, but nothing equals a well balanced force. You build infantry to lose them, nothing else!
You care to back up this ‘well-balanced force’ theory up with some actual numbers? Let’s each buy up any units we want with 60 IPCs. I’ll buy only inf and you buy any mix of units you wish. I will win >99% of the time on defense. I’m not doing very badly on offense either. All infantry might lose on offense but it will be close and it will never be as bad as a mix of units will lose on offense.
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I left Transports out of the question because I figured it was implied that they were a necessity. Both FieldMarshall and theduke are correct, but my intention was to focus on combat units (even though in some cases, only transports can make combat posible.) :wink:
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Who said you can only buy one type of unit? Who says we have to buy 60 IPC worth of units each? I’ve never played a game of Axis like that. Generally, a stockpile of infantry is never alone in a game. It’s the side with most tanks, fighters and bombers that wins. What I know is that if there is a fleet of american and British transports, next to UK, I’ll think twice before sending more troops to the east front as the german player.
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Feld, the only way you can logically connect your statement…
Whthout them the allies can do nothing.
to the question at hand, which is…
Which unit do you think holds the most overall value? (including price, abilities, atk/def, etc.)
is if you assume that the question implies an all-or-nothing scenario (i.e. that you can only buy 1 type of unit).
‘Without (transports) the allies can do nothing’ is logically the same as ‘transports are needed for the allies to win the game.’
Can’t you see how the 2 statements ‘transports are needed to win the game’ (your position) and ‘transports have the most overall value’ (which could be an answer to the question of this forum) are totally dissimilar statements logically and neither one implies the other?
For example Feld, to win against a competent opponent you need transports. This does not logically necessitate that transports have the most overall value because you also ‘need’ other units too, including infantry. Now let’s take the converse, Feld. If someone thinks inf have the most overall value this does not logically necessitate that you need inf to win the game (although if certainly implies it!). Maybe you can win the game by using the unit with the second-best overall value and overall better strategy than your opponent (this is hard but logically possible). This is why needing a unit and that unit having the best overall value are not logically connected. To make a logical connection I had to fill in the blank with assuming you thought the question asked that ‘if you could only buy one type of unit, what unit would it be.’
Moving on Feld, the simplist way to determine which unit has the best overall attack/ defense value is to assume you buy nothing but that unit with a certain amount of IPCs (say 60) and use it against the same amount of IPCs spent on another type of unit. Then put the two types against each other and see which type of unit most likely wins. This is the hypothetical scenario I was proposing in the last post. True Feld, it is a hypothetical, but it is the easiest way to make conclusions that can be applied to the real game. If you don’t like this method, perhaps you would like to another method to mathematically convince to me which unit (or mix of units) has the best attack/ defense value???
It’s the side with most tanks, fighters and bombers that wins.
This came out of the blue. Care to convince me of this Feld?
Bye, Feld.
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I agree hes basically saying that Infantry is the most value as a unit without realizing it. He admits that :
It’s the side with most tanks, fighters and bombers that wins.
So by inference these units will win if you have tons of Infantry to soak up the battle scars while the goodies are screened from combat loses. I am sure he doesnt think these units fight alone without support of many additional Infantry units taking it on the chin every turn. This self defines Infantry as having the most value because its utilitarian contribution in many facets of game include many more of them to be involved in any big attack. Anybody who has more planes or tanks than infantry will lose in the long run, because they will be placed in harms way which costs more to replace.
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Most overall value. I see… And how could you mobilise 20 INF in a same space in a turn? Germany has 10, Moscow has 8, and even in the mighty US there are only 22 points total mobilisation in 2 different spaces. They will take two turns to form a single pile. If this isn’t VALUE to you, I wonder what it is.
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The game is played turn by turn. it takes time to build up the real army before you attack. Like in Chess you have to first mobilize your army and conduct movements that create the biggest tempo. If the horse comes out before the buggy your in for a defeat.
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Nothing quite as valuable as the R1 Battleship! :P
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I think “overall value” includes possibility of mobilisation. Don’t you agree? Go ahead and buy 60 IPC’s worth of infantry. Good luck to mobilise them though. This game is not a science, it’s an art. Numbers may favour infantry in a purely -out of context situation- but everyone knows that infantry are cannon fodder, nothing more…
bye duke
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I think “overall value” includes possibility of mobilisation. Don’t you agree?
yes. all factors including mobilization (yes, it’s with a ‘z’… go america!) have been included in my analysis. even factoring in mobilization, the infantry are the best unit. they are that good on attack and defense.
Go ahead and buy 60 IPC’s worth of infantry. Good luck to mobilise them though.
not that i need much luck, the infantry get to move 1 per turn no matter what. luck doesn’t play much of a part in it. A few turns is pretty much all it takes to move across asia or between moscow and berlin. that’s not that bad in the long war of attrition. thank you for the encouragement anyway.
This game is not a science, it’s an art.
newsflash, it’s both. just like most things in this world.
Numbers may favour infantry in a purely -out of context situation- but everyone knows that infantry are cannon fodder, nothing more…
infantry are so much more. if they’re just fodder than play your next game with your infantry attacking and defending at 0, but still able to be hit (ie fodder), and see how you do against your opponent who still gets infantry attacking and defending normally. huh, perhaps they’re more than just fodder after all?
bye duke
bye feldy.
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There is no place on the map you can mobilize 60 IPC’s worth of infantry in a single space. So I don’t think your example works. And admit that face to face in a combat, infantry stinks. Say you have 3 infantry and I have 3 tanks…who wins?
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3 infantry and I have 3 tanks…who wins?
the person who caused the most net causalties in terms of IPC lost wins…
3x2 vs 3x3 and IPC investment= 6 vs.9 I think on average you may lose 2-3 tanks, while 2-3 infantry are lost. Its best to compare the same units as per the same investment… Consider: 15 IPC spent of either 5 infantry or 3 Tanks
infantry defense is 10, while the tanks are 9. But in terms of loses i think the tanks would be destroyed before the infantry on average… check a dice roller for proof.
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I wouldn’t hesitate to attack Moscow with 3 tanks if it were defended by only 3 infantry. Now, if I win, who’s the bigest looser? Russia. So it all depends on the context. Infantry are very good units indeed but you can’t win a war with them only…
And Duke, did you honestly ever win a game while buying only infantry? Seems impossible to me… Unless?!?
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I wouldn’t hesitate to attack Moscow with 3 tanks if it were defended by only 3 infantry. Now, if I win, who’s the bigest looser? Russia. So it all depends on the context. Infantry are very good units indeed but you can’t win a war with them only…
And Duke, did you honestly ever win a game while buying only infantry? Seems impossible to me… Unless?!?
Of course if it means winning the game you have to go for it. Even if it means losing. But your not comparing “like for like” : that would be 5 infantry vs. 3 tanks.
No you cant win the game with just infantry… the whole point of this exercise is to demonstrate the value of any one SINGLE unit– " MVP" unit of the game. Infantry stands best allways-
Tanks and all the rest of course have their part to play and you cant just win with only infantry and nothing else. that is incorrect either.
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To me INF has the LOWEST value. I always choose them as casualty first.
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And to sustain that you need more infantry then any other unit, so your saying that since you see the value of lots of infantry and your buying them more than any other unit you have agreed by inference that they are the most valuable unit. Excellent!
ok try this… play a game where all you buy is say tanks and nothing else for land combat, second play a game buying no new units except infantry. See how far you get That goes for all of you peeps. That will solve this once and for all-
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Infantry. Buy a butt load and have a lasting defense. Just ask any Russian player. :wink:
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the whole point of this exercise is to demonstrate the value of any one SINGLE unit– " MVP" unit of the game. Infantry stands best allways-
Well said. I think a better way (less confusing anyway) is to think of it like that. If you had to give an MVP award to any one unit type, what type would it be? I think this is better since just like in most sports, players play very different positions (just like transports and infantry play very different roles) but you still have to vote for only one MVP.
I still don’t see how anyone who knows the game can pick anything other than infantry.
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I don’t deny the value of infantry. Let it be noted that infantry may not be the most bad-a** attacker or defender, but their value in any combat is not to be underestimated. They may be cannon-fodder, but cannon-fodder that can shoot back! (I believe it was theduke who made that point.) So they don’t just serve as bullet-sponges, they actually deal out damage too. (Maybe not as much as other units, but who cares? As long as your more expensive units get spared, than they have served their main purpose.) And remember, “overall value” doesn’t mean “ability to get out of a fight, or if not, take someone with you.” It should mean “ability to contribute to the glory of their nation, bringing them to ultimate victory.” So, even if they die, even if they don’t take anyone with them, just honor them as heroes, hope for better rolls, and thank them for soaking up a hit that could have taken out a tank or something.
I was once dismayed by the fact that my topic turned into a huge debate, but now, I find it very interesting. I voted for fighters, just because I love 'em. But I will easily buy a metric a**-ton of infantry during any game I play, compared to any other unit. Whatever tactics you use, may they work for you! And if not, then maybe it’s time to change up your strategy a bit, no?
AgentOrange out. 8)
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