Japan had no interest in invading Africa, they knew that UK had that on lockdown and they didn’t have the resources to do it. I am 100% sure that Japanese High Command would of double down on invading Australia over that. The idea behind controlling Indian ocean was to do two jobs. First: Close Burma Road since the Chinese were getting heavy equipment from the US. People forget the bulk of the IJA was in China and China was always the end goal for Japan. Two: Cutting the Persian trade route was more of a request from Germany. People forget that the Battle of Madagascar was the only battle during WWII that had both Germany and Japan in the same battle.
Operation: Sealion
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@Imperious:
The British Centurion and the US Pershing clearly brought the Allies up to par with the Germans.
yes on par with the Germans after they surrendered. They were not used against Germany coming in very late when the war was decided, while Germany had tiger I in the mid war period.
German tanks were better than all allied counterparts except T34/76 because only German tanks required too many parts and even one tank of the same model had different part than another, so they were always in need of spare parts, while the Soviet t-34 was like comparatively fewer parts and interchangeable. ON the battlefield the Germans always exacted more loses and punishment upon the enemy than they received in return.
Germany had jet power and could have had it earlier had Hitler not re-designated Me-262 as a tactical bomber rather than a pure interceptor.
Germany was ahead in Nuclear fission, but Hitler as usual stopped research when they had the lead and lost it. It was theirs to develop or let others pass them up. But they had the knowledge.
Germany also developed primitive radar latter , but radar was a defensive weapon and Hitler would have no part on it.
Under all aircraft types and rockets no nation was Germany equal, unless perhaps gliders are included.
The walter U-boat was superior to any other allied submarine and was faster than even some allied destroyers submerged.
as i remember the Allies copied German technology after the war and not the other way around.
Actually Imperious Leader, not to challenge your wealth of knowledge but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose. The people at Messerchmitt knew it was best suited for a fighter role so they secretly made adjustments in it’s design as to show Hitler in demonstration that it must be used as a fighter. A pretty thing to do behind his back, but they knew it’s power. It could bring down a fortress in a single burst. If the 262 would have been specified for a primary role as a fighter much earlier and mass produced, it would have cost the Allies immensly in the air war.
Unfortunately, they never really did solve all the kinks in the engine. Although plenty of jets flew sorties without difficulty, reoccuring problems with engine stalls and failure plauged it’s reliability. To this day, there aren’t (to MY knowledge) a single flyable 262 with the EXACT engine they were using. It’s too dangerous to pilots. I know of one that is being restored with modern jet engines in place of the original ones.
So it could be argued that if they had that fighter in mass production much ealier they may have had air supperiority. However, it was a technological breakthrough that was just a few years out of reach for the Reich in terms of all the kinks being worked out.
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but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose.
Thats just what i said, but that it was a mistake to waste its abilities in this role, when they would have been better utilized as a proven interceptor against allied bombers and deployed as such earlier, than retrofit additional ordinance and equipment.
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@Imperious:
but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose.
Thats just what i said, but that it was a mistake to waste its abilities in this role, when they would have been better utilized as a proven interceptor against allied bombers and deployed as such earlier, than retrofit additional ordinance and equipment.
Oh -ok! I thought that may have been what you meant and I completely agree with you. They were proven to be a deadly interceptor and at the speeds they were capable of, you’d think that would be the first thing on Hilters mind: Defense of the Fatherland. His arrogance made his decisions just flat our stupid. His final orders to destroy Paris and even all railyards in Germany really showed how selfish he was at heart. When his whole campaign was for the restoration and empowerment of Germany yet his final months really showed he cared more about power than he ever cared about Germany and the well being of its people. Maybe he was driven to these actions out of insanity once Germanys loss was but writing on the wall.
It seems like every stupid decision he made from a leadership role, was based on pride and anger. He clearly was not capable of managing his emotions for the better of Germanys. It seems to me like leaders should be able to set aside fervent emotions and make decisions based on logic. Hitler certainly proved himself incapable of that.
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If Hitler got shot before June 1941 and Von Manstein took over Germany would have won the war no question IMO.
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Ohh! I’ll be spending the weekend studying Von Manstein. Seriously. I hardly know a thing. Thanks for theory.
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His Lost Victories. Best book ever.
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Awesome! I’ll look for it on Amazon! I’ve found some originals that are listed in poor condition and are 5 bucks or cheaper. Then they show up at my house in damn near perfect shape other than you can tell it’s been read.
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Von Manstein was one of the best leaders of WWII, he would get my vote for number one.
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@Deaths:
@ABWorsham:
Great point timerover51. How fast could Germany have built a navy by 1945? What size would this navy been?
Pretty Quickly if they hadn’t Attacked Russia, And a Good Chunk of the Z-Plan would have been Realized, Making the KGM more then a Heavy hitting Token Fleet.
I am completly Convinced had the Russians and Germans Stayed Allies. The Axis would have won WWII, weather it happens in 1935, or 39, or 45.
The UK and The US would not Stand a Chance Against them.
Good point Timeover 51. Hitler went to enormous lengths to hide the training of his men. Glider clubs were the cover for pilot training and other atheltic clubs were really training soldiers and indoctrinating youth into Nazi ideology. The Nazis had to remain very secretive at first as to not provoke retaliation of the Allies by breaking the Treaty.
As for your point Deaths Head. I respectfully disagree, but only on these grounds: In “Mein Kampf” it is very clear that Hitler wants communism crushed, hence, he wants Russia. Walter Weaver was one of the Luftwaffes best examples of a man that understould the agenda that book preached, and how the Luftwaffe should achieve those goals. He was the only major Nazi champion of the “4 engine bomber program” to attack Russian industry as I’ve mentioned before in these forums.
The Russians had been supplying Spain with tanks and other military help during the Spanish Civil war while the Germans supplied the Spanish Fascist movement with military help. One of the biggest gifts the germans gave Spanish Fascists was their Messerchmitt 109’s. Thier pilots achieved amazing success due to their aicrafts vast superiority in that time frame.
The SA had been in street fights with communist groups that led to deaths all the time. There was SO much tension between the NSDAP and the Russians from the get go, there was no way for an alliance. It was Russia who made the first agressive move against Germany by seizing Eastern Poland in 1939. Then they invaded Lithuania, Lativia and Estonia in 1940.
It should be noted that aside from invading countries right up against Germanies occupation, they proceeded to demmand that Hitler give them Finland and Norway. Hitler had enough and invaded Russia. Russias moves prior to Hitlers invasion were already setting up the Eastern front which Germany immediately began pushing back well out of Europe.
The NSDAP and eventually SA, the Waffen SS and the 3rd Reich in its entirety, were natural enemies of Communists and thereby; Russia.
I agree if they were allies, the war would have been far different but that never would have happened. National Socialists were natural enemies of communists.
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I Disagree.
A good Chunk of Germanies Military was trained on Russian Soil before the war had Broke out.
Even Stalin was so Surprised he had to be Hospitalized for 3 days after the initial invasion of Russia.
Russia Did not Invade Eastern Poland. That was part of a Agreement.
Germany basically said we are invading Poland and Occupying it up to a Certain point. As a Sign of Peace, Germany basiccally allowed russia to occupy those “other” Territories in Poland.
Communism and National Socialism can co exist. It’s when you throw in that Racial Bullshet, Thats when things get Screwy.
Remember A thing called the EuroAsian tripact. If that gets Signed, Game over for the UK and USA.
Hitler didn’t see themselves as Liberators, but as Conquorers.
Hitler could have attacked Russia. But only after a Peaceful Securement of the Western Front. Then He would have been Successful.
Now, What if there was no Halocaust to speak of…… What would Germany do with a Extra 8 million+ in manpower. :? And people like Albert Einstein? :roll:
Now if Japan doesn’t attack Pearl until say '43-44. And Actively activates USA’s Participation in the Hostilities. The Axis will Roll. The National Language in UK will be German.
As for your Point on 4 engine Bombers, Problem Solved, Get rid of Goering!!!
Actually, you solve alot of Problems By Doing Just that.
Even Though Mein Kampf basically comes out and Says I want Russia. It doesn’t Say when.
Attacking Russia is a Good Idea, But JPN must be ready for it.
And You Must Listen to your Generals Advice,
Keep Dumping $ into Tech Advances.
And Don’t do Dumb Shit with your Military.Hind Sight is 20-20 but anyone Knows a 2 Front War is Not going to be a Easy War, or a Cheap war.
Germany and Her Allies, Were in a Position to be able to take and Hold Europe. For a Very Long Time.
They Pissed that ability away the Second a German Soldior Crossed the Border into Russian Territory. -
Very well put Deaths Head. Goering was such a lazy fool and a dope addict. He wanted MORE planes and not better ones. His arrogance cost the Germans their first real defeat at Dunkirk when Goerring persuaded Hitler that they could take the city without much, if any ground support. He was just trying to prove a point that his Luftwaffe was “the bomb” (pun half intended there)
They shold have made peace with England after taking Western Europe or continued bombing the RAF instead of Hitlers stupid decision to bomb civilian towns as a knee jerk, retaliatory reaction for a few bombs that fell in Germany one night. Goerring and Hitler were complete idiots when it came to fighting a war. I give credit more to the pilots and the Waffen SS who fought with incredible resolve in bad circumstances they were put in by the chain of command. (which was a quarrelsome, disorganized bunch at the top of it all)
Russia DID demmand territory from Hitler and he was NOT having it. Like you said, they were conquerors. Many Russians citizens originally helped the SS Honor Brigades and looked to them as liberators until those damn Enzentsgruppen Units started following the SS and Weirmacht, waiting until they won the city, then rounding up whomever they wished for extermination. Those gutless pieces of Sh*t! Didn’t fight in battle; just waited to round people up for mass murder. But again, we face who’s responsible for that decision: Hitler and Himmler.
Those units were doing things that made many of their men commit suicide. Letters were even sent by some of their top officers to Himmler and Hitler, pleading with them to reassign their units to other tasks because many of them could barely handle the guilt of what they were doing. Hitler responded by calling them “soft” and basically told them to “stomach it” and get it done. Sick. They could have taken Russia much easier with long range bombers and without the extermination squads on the heels of the military. They would have had a lot more cooperation from citizens of occupied territory. Stalin was a murdering mad man who may have been even crazier than Hitler.
The Waffen SS were taking POW’s while the Russian NKVD units were doing things like leaving German POW’s hacked to death with spades in towns where the Germans took power. They would even round up all the Russian civilians of the town and intsead of evacuating them, they would leave them all shot dead for the Germans to see.
We’ve discussed this before but I’ll reiterate that Russian “Labor Camps” killed far more peope than German concentration camps ever did.
The Waffen SS unit “Leibstandarte” found the bodies of their many comrades hacked to death with spades. (one of the 3 most successful and brave SS units) They retaliated by ordering no prisoners taken and for 3 days in mid 1942, they shot around 4000 Russian soldiers captured on the spot.
The Weirmachts original disgust for the SS sooned turned to favor after seeing such things done by especailly the NKVD. General Eberhard von Mackensen wrote personllay to Himmler describing the unit “Leibstandarte” as, and I quote: “a genuine elite unit I am proud and happy to have under my command and, further more, I wish to retain.”
Source of refferce: “The SS: Hitlers Instrument Of Terror” by Gordon Williams.
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As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.
I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.
Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.
So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge? Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.
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Goering was second by Hitlers decree. But Goering would get bumped off in seconds, The army would not accept him as leader even with his Great War medals. Himmler could not even command an army group ( he had such a command in 45)
I think a General would have taken over, Possibly Manstein or another basically becoming another Luddendorf.
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@Deaths:
As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.
I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.
Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.
So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge? Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.
That’s awesome! I’m also a huge fan of Totenkopf! They held out for 70 some days completely surrounded! Even under heavy losses they pressed hard against the worst parts of the pocket. I can tell we share the same passion and interest in this specific units. Never had an SS unit achieved so many Knights Crosses in such a short amount of time.
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The subject of Goering and Dunkirk was brought up. It seems history has stamped Dunkirk, a German mistake. Was Hitler unwise by not committing his forces to crushing the British pocket at Dunkirk? I beleive he acted corectly by not attacking the British.
The goal of destroying the French army was still at hand. While the Germans were in control of much of the situation in the West they were still outnumbered in men and tanks. The Germans had very few heavy tanks. This has to be taken in consideration. Why give the French a chance to regroup?
By committing a large force to the English Channel the Germans would get within range of the Royal Navy and the R.A.F. Salerno and Normandy would prove how vulnerable tanks were to heavy Naval fire.
The area around Dunkirk favored the defense. The British would not give up without drawing a heavy cost on the attacker. The defense of the pocket around Dunkirk would give the Luftwaffe a chance to destroy the R.A.F.
How would history judge Dunkirk if the Germans had destroyed most of the Allies in the Dunkirk pocket and allowed the French to counter attack? What would occur had the war in the west lasted another year? How would Stalin react?
It’s just a thought.
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But he ordered his armor to halt. It was not engaged to allocation against french or British counter attacks. It was held back IN CASE the British broke and reformed its cut off forces. Hitler was too timid in this campaign, but he trusted his information and generals who convinced him that it was less important. The Hitler of 1941 or 42 would have told Goering to stuff it and sent the panzers to wipe out the remnants. Goering had alot of impact on Hitler, which declined after the London Blitz, but Hitler listened to him in 1940.
To smash the British in Dunkirk, could have been followed immediately by an invasion BEFORE england could get organized, but Hitler didn’t plan on a quick French campaign. The French folded way too fast for anything to be considered.
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Hitler decision was a political decision. He thought that France was the first target and UK without France had come to an agreement with Germany. Allowing the UK units to retreat was some sort of goodwill act.
A thing that is important to remember when evaluating Hitler strategic thinking are his experiences of the First Worl War.
Hitler volunteered in the German Army. He participated in a number of major battles on the Western Front, including the First Battle of Ypres, the Battle of the Somme, the Battle of Arras and the Battle of Passchendaele. Hitler was twice decorated for bravery. He received the Iron Cross, Second Class, in 1914 and Iron Cross, First Class, in 1918, an honour rarely given to a Soldier.Those experience influenced the strategic thinking of Hitler. Seeing the trench war has formed in Hitler the convinction of the importance of not giving ground to the enemy and the superiority of the defense on the offense. In WW II Hitler has alwasy been doubtful of the mobile warfare preferring to hold ground with fortified defensive line and “Fester Platz” (Fortified City).
Back on topic of Dunkirk, Hitler has been convinced by his War Experience that if French Army is put out of action then UK alone have no way to fought a land war with Germany, no UK invasion is needed and an agreement with UK will be the natural consequence. So in his belief there is no need of destroying a retreating Army that will be useless to UK.
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Very well put about Hitler, Romulus.
I actually refer to Dunkirk in conversation, as “The Luftwaffes first loss”, not really the 3rd Reichs. It was the first time the Luftwaffe was up against pilots as good as them in aircraft that was a fair match and they failed their objective or “Goerings objective” shall I put it.
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I believe Operation Sealion would fail even if the Luftwaffe had worn the R.A.F down in the Battle of Britain.
Studing the Battle of Creete has helped form this conclusion. It’s common knowledge that the Germans had to support the attack on Creete by air. In the Battle the Royal Navy blocked any attempt to supply the invasion by sea. The Germans had complete air control. This fact did not stop the Royal Navy from evacuating most of the defenders of Creete in the face of heavy losses.
How would the Royal Navy act to an invasion of the homeland? With the Germans Navy strength weakened by the invasion of Norway the Royal Navy would destroy most if not all the supporting forces.
I have no idea what losses the Royal Navy would suffer, prehaps a pre-war fleet. The cost would be light considered the consequence of failure. The British were aware of the failures of 1066 A.D.
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Given that the Germans would have only had some control of the air during daylight, and the landing would have been timed for right around dawn, the Royal Navy would have had a free ride in attacking the invasion force during night hours. Add to that the fact that the British were reading the Luftwaffe signals, they would have known in advance when the invasion was coming and started moving their ships prior to nightfall. The term “massacre” strikes me as being a pretty accurate description of what would have happened.
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