Axis and Allies first turns - Germany

[newpaintbrush]

@goldenbearflyer:

newpaintbrush, while ncscswitch thinks about that question, could I just interject and ask again, in what SZ do you typically place your UK trannies, SZ2 or SZ8?

Let us say you are playing rock, paper, scissors.  Let us say that your opponent MUST show his choice before you have to choose.

Let us say that your opponent plays rock.

What do you choose?

But what if your opponent played paper instead?

Wouldn’t you choose something different?

And if your opponent played scissors, you would choose something yet again, wouldn’t you?

–

In the same way, Germany goes before UK, and my move is dependent on Germany’s move.

I haven’t played a game recently, but there are three things to do with the Allied fleet that I can think of offhand.

1.  Unification west of Algeria, putting UK: 2 inf 2 arm, US: 2 inf 1 art 1 arm, possibly 1 fighter and/or 1 bomber.  This depends on Germany’s build, combat movement, noncombat movement, and unit placement.

If, for example, Germany build transports in the Baltic, I would not want to drain London because of the risk of a G2 attack on London.  If Germany sent its Mediterranean fleet west and landed air in range of the sea zone west of Algeria, I would not want to risk the Allied fleet (4 trns 1 destr 1 btl vs 1 trns 1 sub 5 fig 1 bomber is not good for the Allies).  There are other conditions under which unification west of Algeria on UK/US1 is a bad idea.  If Germany allows the Allies the opening, though, unification west of Algeria allows for early dispute of Africa (especially when combined with a UK1 retake of Anglo-Egypt).

2.  Unification in the seazone southwest of London.  This is really just a place for the Allied fleet to hang out, outside of range of the German navy and/or some of the German air force.  This is a pretty standard response to any German play that threatens London; when the Allies unify their fleet southwest of London, the US portion of the fleet brings over the 2 inf 1 art 1 tank to London to help reinforce it.  The Allies have two good options from this seazone; they can either hit Norway, or Algeria (if I remember correctly).  It is difficult for Germany to really defend both; if Germany posts its fleets in a forward position to try to drive the Allies back, the Allies can instead attack the German navy.

This is standard against a very active German player.  The problem with the German navy is that the Allies can just sit in this sea zone (or maybe it was one of the others, I forget), and wait for the German navy (either Baltic or Mediterranean) to retreat, or to get sunk (the Baltic navy can often be sunk pretty quickly if UK dumps IPCs on fighters early).  Now the REALLY important part is this - if the Germans challenge the Allied fleet in any of the sea zones around UK, UK can EITHER attack like mad, barely wipe out the Germans, then pop out a carrier and then have the US move in reinforcing naval units.  OR, the UK can attack like mad, wipe out most of the German fodder, retreat to a sea zone adjacent to London, pop out a carrier, and have the US move in to reinforce.

Or, the UK can just sit and wait for the threat to go away.  How does the threat go away?  UK fighters sink the Baltic fleet, so no more threat.  (Alternative is if Germany buys more navy, but that in turn weakens Germany against Russia, which buys the Allies MORE lovely time).  The German Med fleet has to be posted at least at S. Europe to threaten the Allied fleet off the west of Algeria, and all the key territories are east of that (the sea zone adjacent to Anglo-Egypt and Trans-Jordan, as well as the sea zone adjacent to Ukraine and Caucasus).  So if the Germans DO stay close in the Med, that’s less pressure on Russia.  Again, it’s not easy for the Germans.

3.  Against a REALLY strong and early German naval threat, the Allies can be forced into full retreat (the sea zone northwest of UK, which is vulnerable to fighters based out of Norway).  But really, all the Allies have to do is hang out and defend London.  If Germany is spending like mad on navy, Russia gets very fat very fast, and in the meantime, the UK and US can build air forces the size of Big Momma.  The air forces really aren’t all that useless either; after the air forces are blown up sinking the German navy, the air remnants can reinforce Moscow while Russia builds up a gigantic load of infantry, then the Allies can push out again.

–

All this sounds like an inevitable Allied victory.  In my experience, though, that’s usually what happens with the Allies.

So - in short - where do I put my UK trannies?

If the Germans can blow up the UK trannies at little cost, I simply stick the UK trannies somewhere they can’t be blown up at little German cost.  Why give the Axis a handout?

If the Germans have to pay through the nose to blow up the UK trannies, I just leave the UK trannies right there, where Germany can pay an arm and a leg to blow them up.  I can always build more trannies, but German fighters are a real drain on Germany.

[goldenbearflyer]

Thanks!

If Germany is spending like mad on navy, Russia gets very fat very fast,

My limited experience is that Russia can grow fat regardless of what Germany does.  Even NOT spending on navy, Germany will be facing a big stack probably in WRus.  Russia is not simply a 24IPC nation; my son was at 31 after R2 and has the ability to continue trading territories for several rounds.

So, if Germany builds ANY navy, Russia can get even more offensive.  If Germany does not build navy, the Allies’ incursions simply happen earlier and with more ease.

[Guest]

Actually, Allied control of the Med CAN prevent Germany from being a seriosu therat to Moscow… unless they want a Phyrric Victory and lose Berlin in the process.

A strong Allied fleet in the Med forces Germany to defend Norway, Western, Southern, Balkans, Ukraine, and consider Allied reinforce of Caucuses.

Germany pushed hard to Moscow, I snag Southern and start building there…
Germany goes for Caucuses and Allies interdict the forces in Ukraine, or jsut reinforce Caucuses.

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

Actually, Allied control of the Med CAN prevent Germany from being a seriosu therat to Moscow… unless they want a Phyrric Victory and lose Berlin in the process.

A strong Allied fleet in the Med forces Germany to defend Norway, Western, Southern, Balkans, Ukraine, and consider Allied reinforce of Caucuses.

Germany pushed hard to Moscow, I snag Southern and start building there…
Germany goes for Caucuses and Allies interdict the forces in Ukraine, or jsut reinforce Caucuses.

If you have spent that many IPCs on naval units, you won’t have much in the way of invasion forces, unless it’s quite far into the game, by which point the Axis should already have made their crucial run on Moscow anyways.

If it’s early in the game, Germany can just push the Allies right back out of Southern Europe.

[goldenbearflyer]

@newpaintbrush:

@ncscswitch:

Actually, Allied control of the Med CAN prevent Germany from being a seriosu therat to Moscow… unless they want a Phyrric Victory and lose Berlin in the process.

A strong Allied fleet in the Med forces Germany to defend Norway, Western, Southern, Balkans, Ukraine, and consider Allied reinforce of Caucuses.

Germany pushed hard to Moscow, I snag Southern and start building there…
Germany goes for Caucuses and Allies interdict the forces in Ukraine, or jsut reinforce Caucuses.

If you have spent that many IPCs on naval units, you won’t have much in the way of invasion forces, unless it’s quite far into the game, by which point the Axis should already have made their crucial run on Moscow anyways.

If it’s early in the game, Germany can just push the Allies right back out of Southern Europe.

I disagree, npb, only because in my current game US threatens SEur with 6inf 1art 1arm on US4, and G has like 1inf there!  The big stack is in WEur with new builds in Germ, but the new builds are slated for Russian front.  If WEur forces re-take SEur, then UK threatens Normandy with 4inf 1art 3arm on UK4.  All of this is AFTER the big naval battle that G supposedly won by sinking lots of Allied navy!  US was busy building more stuff T1-2.  Yes, G can take back SEur, but then forces have been diverted from the Russian front, which has been my point all along.  G has not the ground units to defend everything.  What gives?

[newpaintbrush]

@goldenbearflyer:

I disagree, npb, only because in my current game US threatens SEur with 6inf 1art 1arm on US4, and G has like 1inf there!  The big stack is in WEur with new builds in Germ, but the new builds are slated for Russian front.  If WEur forces re-take SEur, then UK threatens Normandy with 4inf 1art 3arm on UK4.  All of this is AFTER the big naval battle that G supposedly won by sinking lots of Allied navy!  US was busy building more stuff T1-2.  Yes, G can take back SEur, but then forces have been diverted from the Russian front, which has been my point all along.  G has not the ground units to defend everything.  What gives?

Sure, then.  Disagree.  That is your right.  No.  Your DUTY!

mwahahaha.

[newpaintbrush]

@goldenbearflyer:

All of this is AFTER the big naval battle that G supposedly won by sinking lots of Allied navy!  US was busy building more stuff T1-2.  Yes, G can take back SEur, but then forces have been diverted from the Russian front, which has been my point all along.  G has not the ground units to defend everything.  What gives?

The Germans “win” the big Atlantic battle if they blow up the Allied navy, and do not lose a lot of Luftwaffe.

If the Germans also manage to keep a capital ship (i.e. Baltic carrier or Mediterranean battleship, whichever was closer to the Allied fleet), the Germans have REALLY won.

If the Germans lost their navy and air force in blowing up the Allied fleet, the Germans FRICKIN LOST.  There is LITERALLY no reason why the Germans should lose their navy and air force early, barring really insane dice like “111111112”.

Understand that it shouldn’t be Germany’s goal just to blow up the Allied navy.  Germany’s goal should of course be the capture of facilitation of the capture of Moscow, but apart from that, Germany’s goal should be to blow up the Allied navy AND keep enough of Germany’s air force and hopefully navy intact, so by the time the Allies rebuild, Germany can blow up the Allied fleet AGAIN.

–

Also, Germany isn’t SUPPOSED to try to defend everything.

Imagine, if you will, a naked, um, cat with a hankie that has to go through a crowded room.  The cat can try to mince through the room while switching the hankie around, but that will take a long time and isn’t going to do the cat’s modesty much good.

OR the cat can cover up the essentials and boldly stride through the room, taking the least amount of time, and suffering the least exposure.

–

Yes, of course it’s your point to pull away German IPCs from the Russian front with a KGF plan.  So what else is new?  The question is, were you able to do it ENOUGH, and is Russia still able to stop Japan?

[Nix]

And for new players it could be good to add that Germany Sit tight in eastern Europe UNTILL japan is ready to move towards cauccasus/moscow, Then Germany will move forward as fast as the Japanesse does.

[zosima]

@newpaintbrush:

What Germany does is really very dependent on what Russia did on its turn.

If Russia moved units towards India, and moved everything else east, the Allies are probably going to be going after Japan first.  (Not certainly, but maybe).

If Russia  built naval units in the Mediterranean, Germany might be well advised to sink that fleet before it got any stronger – or conversely, to ignore it and build lots of tanks to put pressure on Moscow quickly.

And so forth.

Usually, Germany and Japan should both focus on Moscow, while attempting to prevent the Allies from taking complete control of the Atlantic or Pacific.  In some cases, though, attacking the United Kingdom or the United States is better.

More to follow.

I think this must be Hilary clinton.  YOu said absolutly nothing with your statement that involved a strategy ha.

[newpaintbrush]

@zosima:

@newpaintbrush:

What Germany does is really very dependent on what Russia did on its turn.

If Russia moved units towards India, and moved everything else east, the Allies are probably going to be going after Japan first.  (Not certainly, but maybe).

If Russia  built naval units in the Mediterranean, Germany might be well advised to sink that fleet before it got any stronger – or conversely, to ignore it and build lots of tanks to put pressure on Moscow quickly.

And so forth.

Usually, Germany and Japan should both focus on Moscow, while attempting to prevent the Allies from taking complete control of the Atlantic or Pacific.  In some cases, though, attacking the United Kingdom or the United States is better.

More to follow.

I think this must be Hilary clinton.   YOu said absolutly nothing with your statement that involved a strategy ha.

In the post that you quoted, you quoted my strategy.

“What Germany does is really very dependent on what Russia did on its turn.”

Pwned.

[newpaintbrush]

By the way, zosima, until you respond to my “pwnage”, I will continue to officially “pwn” you in my siggy.

[Perry]

OK everyone, help me out here…

Why should Germany sit tight with his stack in EEur, instead of moving forward with his Inf/Rtl as fast as possible, to UKR/WRU?

What is the problem if Germany gets into UKR Before Jap is ready to strike MOS? Surely, it would only deny Russia IPC’s to build with?

Obviously I am missing something here, so I would be happy if someone points that out for me.

Cheers

[General_D.Fox]

You want to wait for a bit until Japan has a nice presence at russia’s backdoor, so that, if the UK has a nice stack sitting in WR and you take the Ukr or the Cauc  with everything you have, and if the UK ends of either strafing you HARD or completely wiping himself out in order to reduce your stack, Japan can be right there afterwards to console your brethren’s lost brethren with a huge stack of his own, to protect you from either the nasty US boys sitting in Moscow or the commies waiting to finish you off on their turn.

Edit: Sorry for lack of punctuation.  MY keyboard sucks and I’m sicker than a dog.

[newpaintbrush]

@General_D.Fox:

You want to wait for a bit until Japan has a nice presence at russia’s backdoor, so that, if the UK has a nice stack sitting in WR and you take the Ukr or the Cauc  with everything you have, and if the UK ends of either strafing you HARD or completely wiping himself out in order to reduce your stack, Japan can be right there afterwards to console your brethren’s lost brethren with a huge stack of his own, to protect you from either the nasty US boys sitting in Moscow or the commies waiting to finish you off on their turn.Â

Edit: Sorry for lack of punctuation.  MY keyboard sucks and I’m sicker than a dog.

What he said, but substitute “Russian” for “UK”.

Basically, if you advance too quickly with Germany, you risk getting wiped out, or a very hard strafe of your position - after which Russia can pull back in plenty of time to defend against Japan.

If you wait to advance with Germany until Japan is a real threat, then Moscow has to deal with both threats at once.

Anyways, if you advance prematurely you get wiped out or heavy strafed.  That’s the real reason.  If you could take and hold that territory, you shouldn’t care even if Japan can’t catch up - more territory for you means more IPCs for you and less for the Russians.

[zosima]

What is was laughing at is that, being reactionary isnt a strategy.  Having a goal that you strive for and go all out to see to fruition is a strategy.

for instance, a strategy based on what someone else does isnt much of a strategy.  Claiming that somone MUST capture Novosbrisk (I’m not saying this is an actual stategy, just giving an example) is a strategy.

[newpaintbrush]

@zosima:

What is was laughing at is that, being reactionary isnt a strategy.  Having a goal that you strive for and go all out to see to fruition is a strategy.

for instance, a strategy based on what someone else does isnt much of a strategy.  Claiming that somone MUST capture Novosbrisk (I’m not saying this is an actual stategy, just giving an example) is a strategy.

Strategy:

1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy

2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

3 : an adaptation or complex of adaptations (as of behavior, metabolism, or structure) that serves or appears to serve an important function in achieving evolutionary success <foraging strategies=“” of=“” insects=“”>–

Simply being reactionary is not a strategy.  However, the subsequent posts in the thread describe some of the proper reactions, thus delineating strategies.

If your claim is that strategies need not respond to an opponent’s actions, you are pwned again.</foraging>

[DarthMaximus]

You obviously have to take into account what your opponent does, but I think Zosima’s point is valid, simply sitting back and saying I’ll wait to see what “X country” is going to do, is generally a very bad idea.

You do not want your opponent to dictate the the pace, the battles, or even the strat you must employ.

Germany can largely ignore Russia 1 and do what ever she wants.  You can still go Med/Afr, go Baltic, or go all land.

Whether Russia attacked Belo or Ukr, is largely insignificant in what Germany should do, the only difference would be to counter Bel or Ukr, but trading for the sake of trading isn’t a strat.  If you don’t have a plan as the Axis, you are going to lose every game, since time is on the Allies side.

An effective strat, will get your opponents trying to counter your moves, not the other way around.

For example, if you go with a G1 heavy Navy build in the Baltic YOU put a series of events into motion that require the Allies to do certain moves, this gives you an advantage (assuming you are experienced in these moves).

One of my typical goals is to hold Ukr with Ger as early as possible, I really don’t care where the Allies land or what they are doing, I want Ukr.  Once I have that I can deadzone almost all of Europe, now the question becomes how am I doing with Japan.

If I start to worry, that the Allies are landing in Nor or Kar and divert troops north, I lose the initiative.
The reason being, if I go for Ukr and hold, the Allies can’t afford to just build up in Kar, they must react to my moves.

You want to set up effective counters, but you better be advancing your position and goals as well.

The best defense is a good offense.

[newpaintbrush]

My posts on page 5 were examples of general strategy for Germany.  Of course, I don’t expect everyone to read the whole thread.

The beginning part of this thread was where I laid the groundwork for the WHY of the strategy - and where I waited for others to state what they would do against or as Germany.  It’s the same thing I did in my Russian thread.

Plus, I do not think I resemble Hillary Clinton.  I don’t have bewbies.

–

@DarthMaximus:

You do not want your opponent to dictate the the pace, the battles, or even the strat you must employ.

Russia has the first turn.  Russia sets the pace.  Russia determines what the board at the start of G1 is going to look like.  Given that, it is difficult to see how you can boldly state that YOU will force your OPPONENT to respond to YOU.

I think it wiser to look at the situation and respond appropriately.

In other words, you are trying to say that I am saying that you should wait for the enemy to attack, and then that you should flail about in an ineffective panic.

What I am really saying is that you see your opponent has plants to manufacture chlorine gas, so when your opponent tries to gas you, you pull out your gas masks and laugh.

Reacting to the situation is the BEST and MOST ESSENTIAL thing to do.  Exploiting weaknesses in enemy defenses is how you win, true, but first you have to not lose.

If you debate that, tell me if you try to establish a strong forward position in Ukraine on G1, by NOT taking Anglo-Egypt and landing all fighters there if Russia didn’t take Ukraine on R1.

[zosima]

@newpaintbrush:

@zosima:

What is was laughing at is that, being reactionary isnt a strategy.  Having a goal that you strive for and go all out to see to fruition is a strategy.

for instance, a strategy based on what someone else does isnt much of a strategy.  Claiming that somone MUST capture Novosbrisk (I’m not saying this is an actual stategy, just giving an example) is a strategy.

Strategy:

1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy

2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

3 : an adaptation or complex of adaptations (as of behavior, metabolism, or structure) that serves or appears to serve an important function in achieving evolutionary success <foraging strategies=“” of=“” insects=“”>–

Simply being reactionary is not a strategy.  However, the subsequent posts in the thread describe some of the proper reactions, thus delineating strategies.

If your claim is that strategies need not respond to an opponent’s actions, you are pwned again.</foraging>

wow…you went to the dictionary. you truely have to much time.  And though I may be “pwned” by you, i still can be happy in the knowledge that I am NOT YOU.  And that I have a life and I have friends.  And that I a confident enough person that I don’t ahve to win a pissing match on the Axis and Allies board to feel better about myself.  So i’ll help you out.  YOU WIN.  newpaintbrush is by far the ebst person at axis and allies, and at life.  I lose.  I am truely “pwned” by this great human being in my midst.  You win this battle, and the war my friends…you win.

[newpaintbrush]

@zosima:

@newpaintbrush:

@zosima:

What is was laughing at is that, being reactionary isnt a strategy.  Having a goal that you strive for and go all out to see to fruition is a strategy.

for instance, a strategy based on what someone else does isnt much of a strategy.  Claiming that somone MUST capture Novosbrisk (I’m not saying this is an actual stategy, just giving an example) is a strategy.

Strategy:

1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy

2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

3 : an adaptation or complex of adaptations (as of behavior, metabolism, or structure) that serves or appears to serve an important function in achieving evolutionary success <foraging strategies=“” of=“” insects=“”>–

Simply being reactionary is not a strategy.  However, the subsequent posts in the thread describe some of the proper reactions, thus delineating strategies.

If your claim is that strategies need not respond to an opponent’s actions, you are pwned again.</foraging>

wow…you went to the dictionary. you truely have to much time.  And though I may be “pwned” by you, i still can be happy in the knowledge that I am NOT YOU.   And that I have a life and I have friends.  And that I a confident enough person that I don’t ahve to win a pissing match on the Axis and Allies board to feel better about myself.  So i’ll help you out.   YOU WIN.  newpaintbrush is by far the ebst person at axis and allies, and at life.  I lose.  I am truely “pwned” by this great human being in my midst.   You win this battle, and the war my friends…you win.  Â

victory, victory!

back to my crack pipe.