Closing access to SZ 16 a game winner?



  • IN every game where were I have closed the zone  the allies have won.  Has anyone else noticed this with that optional rule?



  • it definitely makes it more difficult, though I have seen it done several times.  What we like to do is make the baltic closed too when we do that now, at least when you own the adjacent terr.  -like the suez, but normally we leave that optional rule on the side…
    -i prefer to think that the italians stormed the straits and the germans backed them up, while the turks appeased them due to insufficient force to counter as to historical narrative…


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I like that idea.  If SZ 16 is closed, then SZ 5 is also closed.  Makes life easier on Russia and Germany so it rebalances. (And it forces the game to be more true to history.)



  • No need to do the Baltic closing, Allies should be invading France or Italy and the Baltic isn’t as good a place as it used to be sail that invasion fleet into.

    Maybe we should start playing with the optional rules in League and Tourney games? It might be more balanced, maybe even a 50/50?


  • 2016 2015 '10

    I like this idea (closing 16 and 5).  While we are at it, why not shut down the Arch/Karelia SZ as well?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I think sea zone 4 (Arkhangelsk and Karelia) should be closed to all non-Russian ships anyway.  But that’s more a punch to the gut of the Allies than to the Axis.

    And I think most invasions still seem to come into SZ 5 (Baltic Sea) still.  Maybe it’s just me and my opponents though. It just seems America goes into Italy, England goes into Poland (or vice-versa.)



  • Why invade Poland?  :?  France is worth 11 IPCs for England and then 5 for USA as well, it’s really the way to go. Sure you drop some troops in Nortwest Europe or Poland if you can’t get into France, but that just means your invasion force is too weak and you need to build up UK+USA troops to do it better. You’re almost never going to win a game as Allies if you don’t punch a hole in that Atlantic wall where it hurts, i.e. France.


  • 2016 2015 '10

    Well, I stack the hell out of France, and I imagine a lot of others do to.  So basically the ways to come at my Germany is via Baltic/States/Poland, or Bulgaria/Balkans, or Northwestern Europe if the Allies have alot of troops ready for a series of landings.  Of these options, Poland is obviously the most efficient…it’s just kind of ahistorical.

    I guess what I would like to see in the next version is France/Northwestern Europe divided into 3 zones for more fluidity there…and Italy divided into two northern and southern zones so its harder for Germany to help stack it.  If Italy is 2 zones, then it becomes more logical that the Allies would attack there first.  This would draw away German reserves, and hence open up the opportunity to land in France.

    Meanwhile, forbid the Allies from landing in Arch/Leningrad, and make it much harder for the Allies to clear the Baltic and eventually land there.  Finally I think it would be cool if Balkans was divided into Greece and Yugo for more action in that theatre.



  • @Cmdr:

    And I think most invasions still seem to come into SZ 5 (Baltic Sea) still.  Maybe it’s just me and my opponents though. It just seems America goes into Italy, England goes into Poland (or vice-versa.)

    that’s what i was thinking too, hit Italy.  France may be worth 11, but take italy and you take one-third of the axis, a 12 ipc swing plus no new italian troops–bigger fish to fry and all…
    On the other side, heading into Poland is great because it drives the wedge into the axis drive to moscow. especially great when france is stacked and it takes 2 turns to get to me in poland, or time it to hit italy and poland.  dang, now there’s some frazzled fascists in europe when that happens…!

    but before this all becomes the france/italy/poland debate, here’s the link for more on that…:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13756.0


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @Lynxes:

    Why invade Poland?  :?  France is worth 11 IPCs for England and then 5 for USA as well, it’s really the way to go. Sure you drop some troops in Nortwest Europe or Poland if you can’t get into France, but that just means your invasion force is too weak and you need to build up UK+USA troops to do it better. You’re almost never going to win a game as Allies if you don’t punch a hole in that Atlantic wall where it hurts, i.e. France.

    Poland is also +10 IPC for Russia.

    Anyway, if you read what was happening, America was threatening from the south (France, Italy, Balkans) and England from the north (Germany, Poland, Northwest Europe.)



  • Well, I see a French IC as the best German strategy and if they’re allowed to build with impunity there you will be very hard pressed as Allies. If you make small preliminary assaults before the big one Northwest Europe is good since it divides forces (Germany can’t use territory trade forces to march vs. Russia, as they will be doing if you invade Poland). And Poland isn’t worth 10 IPCs since the Russian NO is on the Russian turn.

    The main strat is to set-up that transport shuck from East Canada to France, it’s by far the most effective strategy for the Allies. You should gear UK and US strategy towards that, AND at the same time at least destroy the Italian fleet and protect Africa, as well as distracting Japan. It’s a tall order, yes, but you won’t win AA50 against a NO-boosted Axis easy!



  • Or with the UK in the north threatening Berlin, France, and defending northern russia, while the US takes africa, threatens Italy, and sends armor into Persia to stall J, that is how I normally do it.  You gotta keep G out of Kar if going KGF and only the UK can afford to get the gear into there.



  • True, UK sometimes has to bail out the Russkies in KAR. Good Russian play can deadzone KAR though without undue effort and once Germany is forced to trade FRA as well they will run out of steam. Defending CAU later in the game with three Axis powers going at it though is another thing and it’s here I really like the optional rule since it gives the Russkies more of a fighting chance. What other territory can be hit by all three enemy powers, contains an IC AND is next to a capital?  :?


  • 2016 2015 '10

    Well if there is any real opportunity to wear Germany down by landing in Northwestern then yeah jump on it…but me I’ve got so many figs and armor and artillery (not to mention inf) adjacent to there that I can drub any force landing there…the only thing good for the Allies is I need to take NW Europe for the NO so the Allies can counter right back.

    But really the safer strategy is go heavy on Baltic/Poland with all 3 allies…but as you remark if Germany has the France factory they may have too many infs by the time the Allies finally take Eastern Europe…by that time Japan is knocking on the door and none of the Allies can take on the massive inf stack.

    The only way to stop this IMO is deny Germany and Italy their NOs so they don’t have the cash to build up the raw numbers and have trouble defending France, much less retaking Leningrad or Stalingrad.

    The France factory is a nice strategy but it’s not invincible IMO–it’s vulnerable to SBRs and if you can keep Axis cash poor by winning the battles for Africa and Leningrad early then it can backfire for Axis.



  • One favourite of mine is to drop an AA-gun into NWE, it will make the Germans gnash their teeth!  :evil:  Honestly just sitting watching the Germans building up a massive inf stack in France isn’t going to get you anywhere, you just will be waiting for that Japanese flag over Moscow! If you build CAs as UK, they should be used every turn.



  • @Lynxes:

    Well, I see a French IC as the best German strategy and if they’re allowed to build with impunity there you will be very hard pressed as Allies.

    you could also do the polish IC as that puts you closer to Moscow for builds, which is more the German focus if they desire to win, rather than just turtle in France/Germany until Japan rescues them.

    @Lynxes:

    It’s a tall order, yes, but you won’t win AA50 against a NO-boosted Axis easy!

    true, but i’d argue that the Axis can’t win without holding Italy.

    @Lynxes:

    What other territory can be hit by all three enemy powers, contains an IC AND is next to a capital?  :?

    France, in your strategy… 😉



  • @LuckyDay:

    Axis can’t win without holding Italy.

    Same as in Revised (not SE in AAR), although Italy is not nearly as important as the other capitals, if either side keep all their capitals, but capture one of the opponents, it usually means victory for the player who captures a capital first. Italy could be different b/c it’s not so important as the other capitals, but if allies keep Moscow, and capture Italy, allies will trade many important TTs adjecant to Italy. Italy is usually not worth a lot, but I think if axis lose Italy, then Japan better hurry up take Moscow.



  • France, in your strategy…

    No, Russia can’t hit France. Caucasus can be hit Japan, Italy and German on consecutive turns without a Russian counter. I’m sure that’s why Larry Harris introduced the Dardanelles rule.

    France is better than Poland since it has a 6 production cap. It helps against SBR and you can pump out a lot of inf if you need to. It’s usually no problem getting an infantry chain going starting at Germany, the big thing is getting enough inf into it and for that you need a high IC capacity and loads of IPCs.



  • @Lynxes:

    Germany can’t use territory trade forces to march vs. Russia, as they will be doing if you invade Poland

    On the other hand, hitting NWE doesn’t disrupt supply lines to the eastern front like invading poland can.  Armor can potentially shoot through if held back for NCMs, but any inf retaking poland should get smacked again the next turn so Germany has to use armor as fodder against the russian infs  if it’s trying to hold a position to the east.



  • The idea is for Germany to have such strong forces they can stack FRA, GER and POL against invasion, which is a real possibility with NOs. If you do succeed to get POL a turn, it should be retaken by superior German forces to UK’s and these can then continue towards the east front. Forces retaking NWE are sent the wrong way, on the other hand.



  • @Lynxes:

    The idea is for Germany to have such strong forces they can stack FRA, GER and POL against invasion, which is a real possibility with NOs. If you do succeed to get POL a turn, it should be retaken by superior German forces to UK’s and these can then continue towards the east front. Forces retaking NWE are sent the wrong way, on the other hand.

    another good reason to take Italy down first… then drop troops in through Romania to hit the eastern front…



  • @Lynxes:

    No need to do the Baltic closing, Allies should be invading France or Italy and the Baltic isn’t as good a place as it used to be sail that invasion fleet into.

    Maybe we should start playing with the optional rules in League and Tourney games? It might be more balanced, maybe even a 50/50?

    lol, i’ve won more games with allies with Britain in baltic and us in france, than both in france or italy



  • Yes, closing SZ 16 is a winner for the Allies.

    It is a long walk for the Italians, and closes another invasion point for the Japanese.



  • @Lynxes:

    France, in your strategy…

    No, Russia can’t hit France. Caucasus can be hit Japan, Italy and German on consecutive turns without a Russian counter. I’m sure that’s why Larry Harris introduced the Dardanelles rule.

    Well to be honest Lynxes Russia is closer to France than Japan is to the Caucasus. The Karelian IC is one Sea Zone and one land territory away from France. Obviously due to material shortages it is EXTREMELY unlikely - but a Russian transport in the Baltic could (in theory - close to the end of the game) take France - allowing it to be bolstered by UK and US Ftrs and troops. I’m half joking - I can’t REALLY see it happening against a competent axis player.

    But the point still stands Japan is not NEXT to the Caucasus - she is not really even close. But she is so powerful - that (This is what I think you are getting at)… to Japan it doesn’t matter - she is powerful enough to project her forces that far.



  • I like to make many small invasions of France. I know that I will lose France to either Italy or Germany, but it gives the Uk or US 11 ipcs a turn. Then I also like to keep italy’s hand tied in north afica with the US. Italy is forced to worry about either Africa or France. In all my expiernces Italy has chosen Africa for the national objectives and ipc values. Then Germany is forced to send valuabe units to france rather than russia. The entire time I save unts for the grand invasion of France. Because Russia wasn’t germany’s only target it was able to stay pretty strong. Unless things go terribly for the allies(bad dice roles) this seems to work pretty good.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

42
Online

13.7k
Users

34.1k
Topics

1.3m
Posts