Chaining moves?


  • SFO Founder TripleA Admin

    Here’s a scenario. I need an answer that conforms to LHTR 1.3, and quickly for my tournament game.

    Karelia is held by USSR and it contains only an AA gun. Archangel contains 2 inf.

    I move an armor unit into Karelia, it has to stop because of the AA gun. At this point, who controls the territory?

    Now that I’ve “captured” Karelia (if that is the case) should I be able to blitz through that territory onward to Archangel? Is the AA gun mine at that point? Can I now fly planes over it?


  • SFO Founder TripleA Admin

    @LHTR1.3:

    Tanks and Blitzing
    A tank can “blitz” by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a friendly or hostile territory. The complete move must occur during the combat move phase. It establishes control of the first territory (place one of your control markers there) before it moves to the next.

    Remember to adjust the national production levels as you blitz. A tank that encounters enemy units in the first territory it enters must stop there, even if the unit is an antiaircraft gun or industrial complex.

    The end of the first paragraph implies that you only place the control marker when you move onto the next territory. The second paragraph states that you must stop at an AA gun. The question is since you do not move on, do you not place a control marker?


  • SFO Founder TripleA Admin

    The urgency of needing an answer is gone but I’m still curious.



  • @djensen:

    @LHTR1.3:

    Tanks and Blitzing
    A tank can “blitz” by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a friendly or hostile territory. The complete move must occur during the combat move phase. It establishes control of the first territory (place one of your control markers there) before it moves to the next.

    Remember to adjust the national production levels as you blitz. A tank that encounters enemy units in the first territory it enters must stop there, even if the unit is an antiaircraft gun or industrial complex.

    The end of the first paragraph implies that you only place the control marker when you move onto the next territory. The second paragraph states that you must stop at an AA gun. The question is since you do not move on, do you not place a control marker?

    How do you move through an enemy territory without gaining control of it unless oyu are a plane?

    I think you’re picking nits here… use common sense.

    Answering your original questions.  The tank controls Karelia, so you now own a AA that was left behind.  This control occurs during combat resolution, so any planes flying over karelia during combat movement would be subjected to the russian aa gun shots.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @djensen:

    Here’s a scenario. I need an answer that conforms to LHTR 1.3, and quickly for my tournament game.

    Karelia is held by USSR and it contains only an AA gun. Archangel contains 2 inf.

    I move an armor unit into Karelia, it has to stop because of the AA gun. At this point, who controls the territory?

    Now that I’ve “captured” Karelia (if that is the case) should I be able to blitz through that territory onward to Archangel? Is the AA gun mine at that point? Can I now fly planes over it?

    Whoever owns the tank entering Karelia(I suppose Germany) takes control of the AA gun and the territory. This happens during combat movement phase so the tank can’t blitz further, it has to stop when it meets enemy resistance(in this case the AA gun, same applies to an IC encounter). Any planes moving in CMP are subjected to the AA gun’s fire.

    As soon as you finish CMP you can blitz through Karelia as long as you are not entering hostile territories. You can in other words not blitz to the enemy controlled Archangel, but you could send arms from Norway to W.russia if it is controlled by Germany/Japan. Regarding the AA fire, no AA guns fire during NCM anyway. So you can fly as much as you like over this one and any other AA gun without being subjected to fire.

    Hope this clears it up.


  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    I agree with those who have said that the AA gun will fire at planes flying over. The ARM will have to stop and control of the terrtory and AA will go to the GER? player. All combat movement is thought of as simultaneous isn’t it? Thus the “put a control marker” is just housekeeping and not a jump on the AA’s chance to shoot at aircraft overhead.



  • @Sankt:

    As soon as you finish CMP you can blitz through Karelia as long as you are not entering hostile territories. You can in other words not blitz to the enemy controlled Archangel, but you could send arms from Norway to W.russia if it is controlled by Germany/Japan.

    I do not think so.  That would be an NCM … units moved in combat movement can not move in non-combat (except planes).

    If there was no AA in karelia (or enemy units) you could do this blitz through and into Norway… because that is all done during combat movement.



  • OK…

    The (assuming German) ARM stop in Karelia, takes control of Karelia, and assumes ownership of the AA gun.

    In NCM, forces can move into or THROUGH Karelia to another friendly territory.

    You cannot seize Karelia in one combat, then flow through it for another combat though.


  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    OK…

    The (assuming German) ARM stop in Karelia, takes control of Karelia, and assumes ownership of the AA gun.

    In NCM, forces can move into or THROUGH Karelia to another friendly territory.

    You cannot seize Karelia in one combat, then flow through it for another combat though.

    And the AA gun would have had the chance to fire at (assuming German) planes that overflew?



  • If the Germans flew over it in Combat Movement then YES, the AA would fire before it fell into enemy hands.


  • SFO Founder TripleA Admin

    Got it. I think this should be a little more explicit in future version of LHTR. I had to imply the same conclusion as everybody else.



  • You know, we MAY want to take up the project of doing a clarification of LHTR ourselves…

    An A&A.ORG Tournament Rules (clarify the issues in LHTR that have come up lately, with an appendix on League Play and on Tournament Play)



  • German fighters must fly over the territory with AA gun to get to where they’re going.  Therefore, the AA gun fires on German fighters.

    The German tank cannot blitz through the territory with an AA gun.  An AA gun, or even an industrial complex, stop a blitz from continuing.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I concur, technically you don’t take posession of the land or equipment until after the combat phase is completed, so any combat moves (which come before combat) would be performed assuming the AA Gun was in the possession of the opponent and active. though, in NCM you could drive by, take photos next to it, wave and keep going as you saw fit. 😛


  • 2007 AAR League

    @axis_roll:

    @Sankt:

    As soon as you finish CMP you can blitz through Karelia as long as you are not entering hostile territories. You can in other words not blitz to the enemy controlled Archangel, but you could send arms from Norway to W.russia if it is controlled by Germany/Japan.

    I do not think so.  That would be an NCM … units moved in combat movement can not move in non-combat (except planes).

    If there was no AA in karelia (or enemy units) you could do this blitz through and into Norway… because that is all done during combat movement.

    You do not disagree with me, try reading it again. In hindsight I see I probably didn’t come out as clear as I thought and wanted to be. I meant that any OTHER armor than the one moving in CMP could blitz through to a friendly territory.

    I also fail to see how LHTR is unclear at this point. You DECLARE your CMs, then carry them out. That implies that any fighter flying over Karelia will be shot at regardless of the outcome of the Karelia battle. It is already placed on the battleboard with an AA as an obstacle(or however it’s worded). Time to wrap it up now, folks?  😛



  • @Sankt:

    You do not disagree with me, try reading it again. In hindsight I see I probably didn’t come out as clear as I thought and wanted to be. I meant that any OTHER armor than the one moving in CMP could blitz through to a friendly territory.

    Yep, you talked about 1 tank, and assumed we knew you meant other tanks could NCM through karelia to norway… but then (if you want to get technical), that’s not blitzing, that’s non-combat movement.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I don’t think there is a need for another revision to LHTR.

    What would be useful (apparently) is a collection of examples that illustrate the answers to questions like this, complete with explicit reference to the way the rules were read to reach the conclusion.

    Some examples of land combat, sea combat, strafing, strategic bombing, and amphibious landings should sort out the most common rule questions.  If the examples also include things like moving the CV in the NCM to “catch” the surviving FTR, the ability of a TRAN to pick up at multiple locations but only deliver to one, the way a BB can bombard in an amphibious invasion but only if the sea zone is undefended, we would answer almost every one of these “how does this work” questions.

    I know in our first game, we debated whether of not INF and ARM could shoot back at attacking FTR and BMBR.  We go the right answer but not from any clarity in the rules.  We certainly did not do SS right the first time.  I’m still not convinced we do AA guns right.  (Do they really fire every round or only on the first round?)

    Examples of all of these would be great!!!


  • 2007 AAR League

    In LHTR I believe it is only the first round.



  • An AA Gun only fires once per combat - in the opening fire step of the first cycle only.  It has been this way (with different terminology sometimes but essentially unchanged) in Classic, Pacific, Europe, and Revised, both OOB and LHTR.  Never any different.

    ~Josh


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