EDIT: you can get a whole picture of my very last units rosters based on the most recent discussion on this matter:
My preferred one:
Baron M’s G40HR Roster for 3-planes carrier & 6 IPCs 1914 Fighter & Sub A3 D1 C7
A less original but still functionnal
Baron Munchhausen’s Complete Roster for play-testing with 2-planes carrier
After reading on, thinking and talking about a lot of challenging new ideas on many issues about Transports, Submarines, Destroyers and aircrafts.
Letting aside any impact on balance due to one starting set-up or another (which can be corrected by bids).
I think now it is really possible to have less exception rules and special situations that need explanations.
Thus improve overall interactions between these 4 units mainly.
So why not gives a combat value to transport?
Making it : Attack 0 Defense 1 Move 2 Cost 8, 1 hit, taken as last casualty
Credit Eggman and Uncrustable:
10 IPCs cost for Classic Transport being a casualty taken at the owner’s choice.
Credit Der Kuenstler:
About Aircrafts, why not let them hits any units, including Subs? As it was historically the case and in many previous games before A&A 50 Anniversary.
You can read the interesting answers of Krieghund about the evolution of this rule on Aircrafts and Subs here:
Here is the most interesting point IMO:
So is there any version of OOB Subs rules which allow Submerge during First Strike and let planes be able to hit directly subs without DD, the sole condition is that defending sub choose not to submerge first (in such situation, fighter A3 or StB A4 will be considered as any single indestructible attacking Cruiser A3 or Battleship A4, because Sub cannot hit air units.)?
In this condition DD still get a function because all freaking subs can always submerge before receiving any hits.
If all Subs rules after Revised always included both Submerge during First Strike and planes need DD to hit subs,
Does the simpler sub rule Submerge on First Strike phase with Air can hit subs without DD (if subs choose not to submerge) was ever play-tested?
Because, according to the uncorrected AA50 Rulebook,
Sub rule was easily understand that way (give hints to think about it),
subs (submerging before reg combat) becomes far less vulnerable than in Revised rules (submerging after regular combat),
and this rule is simpler: “simplifying unit interaction”.
Yes, it would make subs less fragile, but the thing that it would not do is keep subs from being used as fodder in fleet battles. With subs being immune to air units without a destroyer, it’s dangerous to pad a fleet with subs, since all an attacker needs to do is go in without a destroyer in order to force all of his/her air unit hits to bypass the subs and hit the more expensive units. This makes destroyers the better choice for fleet protection, as it should be.
A summary of the reasons behind OOB Subs and planes rules by Krieghund:
About Submarines, why not making them a more elusive and independent unit while forbidding them to serve as cannon fodder for bigger warships?
Submarines should never be cannon fodder. In fact, Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multi-surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing through the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. That’s why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. (…)
It is possible by simply add a special casualty rule for Subs : "Subs can only be picked as casualty when their is no more surface warships available."
And for increasing their survivability, it depends on the Destroyers.
About Destroyer, let them be the real and main cannon fodder of the sea.
According to me, with anniversary rules we are going to see two “historical” behaviour:
- DD have to be bought in larger quantity because TRNs and SUBs are not useful as cannon fodder;
- DD have to be used to hunt SUBs.
Destroyers are the Infantry of the seas. not subs. That was a mistake in Revised and now its corrected.
Why not limiting their obstructive power against Subs to realist and simple 1:1 basis as Der Kuenstler, recently, and others before, like Knp7765, put forward?
Credit Der Kuenstler:
I never liked the implementation of destroyers in A&A. Basically all one player has to do to inoculate themselves against sub attacks is build a single destroyer per fleet.
So US and UK each build a single 8 IPC unit (or maybe two) and it completely removes the unit from play for the Germans.
Huh? Why should 16 IPCs completely invalidate a unit’s usefulness?
I always enjoyed the house rule of the destroyer’s ability to cancel sub’s specials being a 1-to-1 ratio. I.E. a single destroyer cannot stop a vastly larger number of subs. Are the ASW capabilities of the destroyer endless? no matter how many fleets of submarines, this one fleet of destroyers can stop all of them from getting a sneak attack? It seems bad from a game-play and realism perspective. Instead, for every destroyer present, one sub loses it’s opening fire/submerge/submersible abilities. So if you attack a fleet with 3 subs and they only have one destroyer, two subs still get opening fire.
This makes much more sense in terms of game-play and actually allows for utilizing a sub strategy as Germany. Anybody have any reason this shouldn’t be the case?
I REALLY think it is possible and that historical realism can be saved and even be much better.
So, what could be the main restraints to not do it? Traditions? Old habits?
As a parallel topics:
I could also add, why Anti Air Artillery could no be like other ground units?
Attack 0 Defense 1 Move 1, Cost 5-6? Giving 1 shot per round against 1 plane if any.
And no auto destroy when a ground unit enter a territory in which AAA is the only unit to defend. Rolling a regular defense @1 is not so overpowering (Half rate of Inf or Art).
Here below, the changes (bolded or strike-through) on the 1942.2 OOB rules which will greatly simplify units interactions:
No Combat Value Non warship combat unit: Even though a transport can attack or defend, either alone or with other units, it has very little combat value of 0. This means that a transport cannot fire in the attacking unit’s or the defending unit’s fire steps. Transports may not attack without being accompanied by at least one unit with an attack value, unless they are conducting an amphibious assault from a friendly sea zone that is free of enemy submarines. This lack of an effective combat capability also allows enemy ships to ignore the presence of transports.
Doesn’t Block Enemy Movement:
Any sea zone that contains only enemy transports doesn’t stop the movement of a sea unit. Air or sea units (other than transports) ending their combat movement in a sea zone containing only enemy transports automatically destroy those transports (unless they are ignoring them to support an amphibious assault instead). This counts as a sea combat for those sea units. Sea units can also end their noncombat movement in a sea zone containing only enemy transports.
Transports can only be chosen as a casualty if there are no other eligible units. Normally this will occur when only transports are left, but it can also occur under other circumstances. For example, submarines attacking transports and planes will hit the transports because they can never hit the planes.
fighters attacking transports and submarines will hit the transports because they cannot hit the submarines without a friendly destroyer present.
Carry Land Units:
A transport can carry land units belonging to you or to friendly powers. Its capacity is any one land unit, plus one additional infantry. Thus, a full transport may carry either two infantry or a tank, an artillery, or an antiaircraft artillery unit plus an infantry. A transport cannot carry an industrial complex. Land units on a transport are cargo; they cannot attack or defend while at sea and are destroyed if their transport is destroyed.
Loading and Offloading:
A transport can load cargo from one or two territories in or adjacent to friendly sea zones that it occupies before, during, and after it moves. A transport can pick up cargo, move one sea zone, pick up more cargo, move one more sea zone, and offload the cargo at the end of its movement. It can also remain at sea with the cargo still aboard (but only if the cargo remaining aboard was loaded in a previous turn, was loaded this turn in the Noncombat Move phase, or was loaded this turn for an amphibious assault from which the transport retreated).
Loading onto and/or offloading from a transport counts as a land units entire move; it can’t move before loading or after offloading. Place the land units alongside the transport in the sea zone. If the transport moves in the Noncombat Move phase, any number of units aboard can offload into a single friendly territory.
Land units belonging to friendly powers must load on their controller’s turn, be carried on your turn, and offload on a later turn of their controller. This is true even if the transport remains in the same sea zone.
Whenever a transport offloads, it cannot move again that turn. If a transport retreats, it cannot offload that turn. A transport cannot offload in two territories during a single turn, nor can it offload cargo onto another transport. A transport cannot load or offload while in a hostile sea zone. Remember that hostile sea zones contain enemy units, but that for purposes of determining the status of a sea zone, submarines and transports are ignored.
A transport can load and offload units without moving from the friendly sea zone it is in (this is known as “bridging”). Each such transport is still limited to its cargo capacity. It can offload in only one territory, and once it offloads, it cannot move, load, or offload again that turn.
A transport can take part in an amphibious assault step of the Conduct Combat phase. That is the only time a transport can offload into a hostile territory.
During an amphibious assault, a transport must either offload all units that were loaded during the Combat Move phase or retreat during sea combat. It can also offload any number of units owned by the transports power that were already on board at the start of the turn.
Destroyers are specially equipped for anti-submarine warfare. As a result, they have the capability of cancelling**, on a one-on-one basis,** many of the unit characteristics of enemy submarines.
A Each destroyer cancels the Treat Hostile Sea Zones as Friendly unit characteristic of any single enemy submarine that moves into the sea zone with it. This means that the a single submarine must immediately end its movement, whether combat or noncombat, upon entering the sea zone. If a submarine ends its combat movement in a sea zone with an enemy destroyer, combat will result.
If a destroyer is in a battle, it cancels the following unit characteristics of
all one enemy submarine s in that battle: Surprise Strike~~,~~ and Submersible. , and Cannot Be Hit By Air Units. Note that destroyers belonging to a power friendly to the attacker that happen to be in the same sea zone as the battle do not actually participate in it; therefore, they do not cancel any of these characteristics of any defending submarine s.
Anti-Sub Patrol Mission:
Since Destroyers are mainly escorting and patrolling against Submarines, when moving to attack at least one Submarine, Destroyers get a special retreat move:
even if there is no more enemy warship in a once embattled sea zone, attacking Destroyers can retreat 1 sea zone from where they came.
Submarines have several unit characteristics. Most of them are either cancelled or stopped by the presence of an enemy destroyer.
Both attacking and defending submarines can make a Surprise Strike by firing before any other units fire in a sea battle. As detailed in step 2 of the General Combat sequence (pg. 16), submarines make their rolls before any other units, unless an enemy destroyer is present. In which case, every single Destroyer cancels one single Submarine Surprise Strike. All additional number of Submarine units over Destroyer units keep their Surprise Strike. If no submarine from
neither side is eligible for a Surprise Strike, there is no step 2. Players move directly to step 3 of the General Combat sequence.
A submarine has the option of submerging. It can do this anytime it would otherwise make a Surprise Strike.
The decision is made before any dice are rolled by either side (the attacker decides first) and takes effect immediately. When a submarine submerges, it is immediately removed from the battle strip and placed back on the map. However,
a one submarine cannot submerge if an for each enemy destroyer which is present in the battle.
Running silent, running deep:
When a fleet only composed of Submarine units (not considering Transports) was unable to Submerge on a previous combat round due to enemy Destroyers presence, any number of them can Submerge at the beginning of the following combat round, in step 2.
Influence and credits to Knp7765:
Treat Hostile Sea Zones as Friendly:
A submarine can move through a sea zone that contains enemy units, either in combat or noncombat movement. However, if a submarine enters a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer, it must end its movement there**: one single submarine must end his movement for each enemy Destroyer in the sea zone.** If it ends its combat move in a hostile sea zone, combat will occur. Any outnumbering submarine units over Destroyers can still move through this hostile sea zone.
Does Not Block Enemy Movement:
The “stealth” ability of submarines also allows enemy ships to ignore their presence.
Any sea zone that contains only enemy submarines does not stop the movement of a sea unit. Sea units ending their combat movement in a sea zone containing only enemy submarines may choose to attack them or not. Sea units can also end their noncombat movement in a sea zone containing only enemy submarines.
Cannot Hit Air Units:
When attacking or defending, submarines cannot hit air units.
Cannot Be Hit by Air Units:
When attacking or defending, hits scored by air units cannot be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units in the battle.
Last Warships Chosen:
Submarine can only be chosen as a casualty if there is no other eligible warship units. As long as a friendly Destroyer, Cruiser, Carrier or Battleship has an active part in the battle, Submarine unit cannot be taken as a valid casualty.
Submarines on attack can retreat after the others units retreat.
This will allows subs a way to continue an attack all by themselves (and to be sacrificed) while all the other units have retreated.
A&A 1942 Second Edition, p.26:
Air units can hit submarines only if a friendly destroyer is in the battle. Whenever a round of combat starts and there is no enemy destroyer, submarines cannot be hit by air units.