G1 J4


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Hello everyone.  I have returned from my exile and now I have a question to ask the experts.

    With a few dissenting voices, the emerging consensus about Global 1940 seems to be:

    1. Germany should attack Russia either G2 or I2/G3.
    2. Japan should attack the allies either J1 or J2.
    3. No one should ever attack a stack of cheap units with a bunch of planes.

    However, that doesn’t match the experience of World War II, in which Germany invaded East Poland and the USSR beginning in June 1941 and Japan declared war in December of that year.  There were good reasons for that schedule and those reasons are incorporated into the game in the form of the timetable for the Siberians reaching Moscow, Japan’s $10 NO for avoiding trade sanctions over FIC, and the need to keep America out of the war.  So if anything, history shows us that Germany should attack Russia as soon as possible (G1) and Japan should avoid any conflict with USA until as late as possible (J4).

    The following are opening moves for such a strategy.  What I am looking for is advice on what the experts think the allies should do on round 1 if faced with an opener like this.  First, a couple of warnings though:

    1. Japan can and will airstrike anything in Szechwan
    2. Germany can and will airstrike Belarus or z97.  If you stack Belarus and attack z97, Germany will scramble.
    3. If Russians move back to Amur, Japan may stack Korea with 10 inf, 2 AA, and 1 fighter.
    4. Japan will not declare war on France or USA until round 4, but will attack British holdings if attacked or provoked. If not, the schedule is Burma J4, India J5, then on to Cairo.  Moscow soon capitulates, and then the Americans show up….

    OPENING MOVES FOR A G1/J4 STRATEGY:

    GERMANY
    Build 4 mech, 1 armor in Germany; 1 destroyer in z112

    COMBAT MOVES
    East Poland
    1 inf, 1 armor from Romania
    2 inf, 1 armor from Hungary
    3 inf, 1 armor from Poland
    3 armor from Greater Southern Germany

    z110
    1 fighter from Norway
    1 fighter from Holland
    2 tac from West Germany
    2 bombers from Germany
    1 sub from z103
    1 sub from z108
    1 battleship from z113

    z106
    1 sub from z117
    1 sub from z118

    Yugoslavia
    6 inf, 2 art from Greater Southern Germany
    1 inf from Romania
    Retreat to Romania

    France
    4 inf, 2 art, 3 armor from Holland
    3 inf, 1 art, 2 fighters, 1 tac from West Germany
    1 tac from Germany
    1 tac from Poland
    1 fighter from Hungary

    NONCOMBAT MOVES
    11 inf, 3 art, 3 AA from Germany to Poland
    4 mech from West Germany to Poland
    3 inf from Norway to activate Finland
    transport and cruiser from z114 to z112
    2 inf from Denmark to Norway via transport
    1 sub from z124 to z125
    2 fighters, 1 tac from France to Southern Italy
    1 fighter from z110 and 3 AA from West Germany to Holland
    all remaining planes to West Germany
    leave Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Greece for Italy

    JAPAN
    Build 2 transports in z6; 1 minor IC in Shantung

    COMBAT MOVES
    Chahar
    1 inf from Jehol

    Anhwe
    1 art from Jehol
    3 inf, 1 art from Shantung
    3 inf, 1 art from Kiangsu

    Hunan
    2 inf from Kiangsi
    2 fighters, 2 tacs from manchuuria
    1 fighter from Fromosa

    Yunnan
    3 inf, 1 art from Kwangsi
    1 fighter, 1 tac from Kiangsu
    2 bombers from Japan

    NONCOMBAT MOVES
    ALL planes land in Kwangsi except 1 fighter in Kiangsi (10 fig, 8 tac, 2 Bmb total).
    ALL ships go to z36 except 1 destroyer in z43 and 2 destroyers in z6.
    1 inf, 1 armor from Japan to Kwangsi via transport.
    1 art from Kiangsi to Kwangsi
    1 inf from Okinawa; 1 inf, 1 art, 1 mech from Manchuria to Kiangsi via transports.
    2 inf from Manchuria to Jehol (3 total)
    4 inf from Korea to Manchuria (7 inf, 1AA total)

    What would be the BEST allied response?  thanks



  • Welcome back my little plastic friend, and if you ever leave again…… I will pull a General Patton, and slap you across your yellow lego face.

    As for your question (not to take away from all your hard work posting it), but I have learned that the best strategy for the allies is adapting to everything the Axis do, and than repond acordingly. It’s like playing basketball in the sense that if you’re double teamed, there will be an open man some where.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    LOL thanks  😄



  • Im getting more and more comfortable with the G1 J4 move. Keeping the US out of Western Europe gives you time to build the italian counter in France as well as random german defenses while putting the majority of your money towards the Russian front.

    The J4 also allows you to build any kind of amphibious/bombardment attack anywhere you want on the map. Its pretty fun to watch your opponent get frustrated as they set up destroyer blockers anticipating a J2 or J3, and you just move freely through their navy and set up shop where you wish.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Thanks Komiserik.  There are a couple advantages that might not be obvious right off the bat, but as you play it out for a few rounds (maybe solitaire tripleA) some things start to become apparent:

    1. It is suicide for Russia to attack East Poland or stack Belarus R1.  Forget counterattack; default is to build inf and turtle
    2. Italian tanks and planes in Hungary I1 are very important so scramble German planes if UK does Taranto
    3. Germans can be in Baltic States G2, Novgorod/Belarus G3 and then Bryansk G4.  At that time Russian turtle units from Novgorod are up in Vologda or they are dead meat
    4. Germany can build 10 tanks G2, 4 bombers G3, then inf/art in West Germany G4 in time to counterattack an allied landing G6
      The point of delaying the America DOW is to push Russia back into Moscow AND counterattack D-day.

    I am starting to like 5 mech, 1 destroyer as the G1 build for this, just to save $2 and have $63 in hand in case of sealion (ya never know), or to put toward bombers G3.

    One more oddball piece might be for Japan to build Suiyuyan airbase J3 so Japanese planes can reinforce Bryansk J4 and allow German tank/mechs to squirt down into Caucasus.



  • I’m on a pretty big losing streak right now, so I’m going to pull this one out next time. My usual opponent is the weakest with Russia, so hopefully I can get back in the W column.

    Im playing around with the J4 in tripleA right now (solitaire) and seeing if its possible to stage it so that on round 4, You unload a transport on every island involved in an NO (DEI, Guam, Midway etc). I haven’t thought about any of the pros or cons of it because its late in Toronto, but just seeing if its even possible.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Good luck!  I am really happy to hear someone taking the idea seriously, so let us know how it works out.  As I see it anything Japan can do to get USA to spend on the pacific side buys time for Germany, so nabbing the islands or India or Hawaii or ANYTHING like that would be good.

    BTW if you’re going for islands, be ready to grab them J3 because there are incentives (NOs) for UK/ANZAC to DOW on round 2, which is GREAT because then you get the islands and unless you DOW on USA they are still left stuck in z101 til USA4.


  • '12

    @variance:

    Good luck!  I am really happy to hear someone taking the idea seriously, so let us know how it works out.  As I see it anything Japan can do to get USA to spend on the pacific side buys time for Germany, so nabbing the islands or India or Hawaii or ANYTHING like that would be good.

    BTW if you’re going for islands, be ready to grab them J3 because there are incentives (NOs) for UK/ANZAC to DOW on round 2, which is GREAT because then you get the islands and unless you DOW on USA they are still left stuck in z101 til USA4.

    I think those are false incentives for the very reasons you mention.  Sure, you get a maximum of 15 IPCs of NOs for the Allies, but you also gift Japan another round of 10 IPCs for not being at war with the USA, plus Japan gets a free pass to counter-attack the Allies while the USA twiddles its thumbs.  Maybe in rare cases it will be worth the trade-offs, depending on the tactical situation, but I’m getting a vibe that people think you should almost always do the Allied Pacific DoW and I don’t see that should be the case.



  • Eqqman,

    The NOs are just icing on the cake. The real great part about the UK2 DOW on Japan is that you can kill precious Japanese land units, which take logistics and factories for Japan to replace. Anzac is also grabbing DNG round 2 so might as well get paid for it.

    Clearing Yunnan and Siam is a big bonus for the allies and keeps the Chinese strong. With no Friendo factory Japan will have to use the units destined for trannies to instead screen a Yunnan air attack or give up in the face of a costly stack.

    –Jeff


  • TripleA

    G1 J4 is like playing by yourself.


  • '12

    @Jeff28:

    The real great part about the UK2 DOW on Japan is that you can kill precious Japanese land units, which take logistics and factories for Japan to replace. Anzac is also grabbing DNG round 2 so might as well get paid for it.

    Clearing Yunnan and Siam is a big bonus for the allies and keeps the Chinese strong.

    That’s only going to happen if Japan allows it.  Most of the Japanese ground forces are going to be covered by the Japanese Air Force.  I agree it’s great if the Burma road is open and you can keep that Air Force out of range of Calcutta, but that requires moving your land forces away from there, and a good Japanese player should be making you pay for that.

    Something else to consider is that waiting for the US to build up is a double-edged sword.  I’m midway through a game where my opponent decided to wait for the J4 attack, and as a consequence, I’m ready to drop 18 ground units into Spain with enough naval support that the USN is basically untouchable in the Atlantic.  There is nothing in the three French territories.  Admittedly my opponent said upfront that their Axis play was a little rusty, but the US would have played out largely the same even if they went another route.  You’d think that the J4 attack helps Germany, but I think it encourages a full-on KGF that brings in a USA that has been forced to come fully prepared.



  • Yea, J4 says India/Anzac get to be rich and turtle for the win while US goes heavy atlantic.  Japan does a lot more to help Germany by threatening a win in the pacific than delaying american entry (with the exception of a Sea lion play).


  • 2020 2018 2017 '15

    Greetings, all.  I have my annual “meeting of the minds” where we get together and play Axis & Allies and drink heavily.  As I am one of two master strategists of the group, I try to stay one step ahead.

    Hello, variance.  I’ve been working on a similar move.  G1 – all in against Russia, while Japan holds off and never attacks.
    A few differences worth considering.  I’ll see if I can attach some photos of Triple A to show you what the board looks like after my move.  In sum, just about everything goes East.
    The differences:
    1 Ftr and 2 Strat kill the 1 inf 1 art in Western Ukraine to ward off any counter-attack down south. 
    2 Tacs help the 1BB & 1CC against the Russian navy should they think about scrambling.
    Germany attacks Baltic States, Eastern Poland, and Bessarabia.
    3 Tanks in Holland and 3 Tanks in Greater Southern Germany also move East.  Planes are then used to guarantee France.  Leave Normandy, Southern France, and the British navy ALONE.
    One exception:  All 5 subs converge on SZ109 to destroy the 1TT 1DD.
    DO NOT ATTACK YUGOSLOVIA.  It makes little sense to lose units, and delay what could have been 6 Inf and 2 Art on the front lines by another turn.  The sooner Moscow falls the better.
    3 Ftr 3 Tac land in Southern Italy (From France)

    Buy 6 tanks, Round 2 buy 10 Tanks.  I’ve heard all-tank buys are bad….but only if you have no fodder on the front lines.  By not attacking Yugoslovia, and combining with the 4 free Inf from Bulgaria, you’ll have 10 Inf of fodder on the southern front and northern front. (not shown in this screenshot)
    The Eastern front thus looks like:

    If your group has never seen a G1J4, they most likely won’t know how to react.  The faulty assumption is that Russian can hold out for sometime with no assistance.  I’ve played this a few times, and Russian has lost all three victory cities by ROUND SIX, every time.  Victory then followed (once even through a Pacific victory because the US spent nothing in that theatre).
    Now I’m working on countering my own strategy, but I’m curious how the Allies you’ve played would react to the above?  I can outline it more if need be, but hopefully the screen shots will work.

    The Disadvantages are obvious:
    The UK now has a navy.  While that sound bad, they have NO TTs on UK1 to land anywhere.  This gives you a turn to consolidate your airforce as needed to fend off any allied attempt at landing UK2.  If the UK spends money on a navy, that is less money spent towards Egypt, making things easier for Italy.  In sum: it takes several turns before the UK has enough of a navy to defend against 10+ German planes, their money slowly dwindles in Africa, and they’ll have difficulty loading enough transports to maintain any kind of pressure.
    Even if the UK manages to land in Europe, my experience has been that it is quite easy for Germany to counter-attack and push them off the continent.  With the US out of the war, Germany can build in France and leave the coast open.
    On the several occasions where the UK has tried to build a navy, the Allies have lost.  As all of Russia falls by Round 6, the US has ONE shot at taking Rome.


  • 2020 2018 2017 '15

    Russian needs to learn to defend against it or screw up royally.  Novgorod is lost.  If they consolidate and defend there, they’ll lose.  7 Finnish inf move south, 10 Inf move north, combining with 10 Tanks.  They’re done.  RUS simply can’t get enough units there.

    If RUS decides to reinforce the Ukraine, that will hasten their downfall as well.  Regardless of what they put there, Germany can attack with planes that landed in Southern Italy, their bombers, 3 Tanks from Eastern Poland, and Inf in Bessarabia.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Whackamatt, that’s a very different approach from my kind of G1 or grasshopper’s G1.  Good to see different ideas.  I can see a couple of issues to consider:

    1. are you not attacking UK navy at all besides z109?  what about scramble?
    2. airstrike on West Ukraine seems pretty high risk for modest benefit
    3. Russia might strafe Baltic States and retreat to Novgorod or Belarus
    4. what is the plan for G2 and beyond?


  • Last game me and my friend tried a g2/J2 strategy and we lost pretty good. Some of it had to do with some really lopsided rolling, but the axis were still in trouble.

    After the loss, we offered a rematch and it was accepted and we will start Sunday. We are looking at a G1/J4. After many games, it’s apparent the war is won in Europe,  no matter how dominant Japan is in the Pacific (unless they take and hold the US). The reason we are going to go with this is to counter a few of the allies moves last game. (The US had a big fleet roaming the Mediterranean and kept Italy land locked and a threat to attack, forcing then to turtle. The Russian player attacked the Japanese with his 18 guys and was a big pest, along with the Chinese because the Japan player focused on taking the islands, and suffocating Anzac and India with convoys and bombing raids.)

    So due to those moves, we feel waiting to bring the US into the war is in our best interests. First if Germany can keep the UK navy at bay, they really don’t have to worry about a big European invasion until round 6 at the earliest. It will allow Italy to get on its feet unlike last game and hopefully the Italians will have all of Northern Africa by I3 so then they can focus all on buying defense units for Europe for a big allied invasion. For Japan, a J4 attack will allow them to eliminate china and the Russian force early in the game. The Japanese then will roll some tanks through Russia to take that money. We may employ the idea of the guy above of taking American islands to deprive them of bonus’s. it will either be that or a J4 set up to take the big IPC islands. Either way the Japanese will spend almost exclusively on aircraft and attack boats, forcing the US player to check him which should allow the Germans to get to Moscow (or at least that’s how the strategy goes). We will see.


  • '12

    @Kingpin2010:

    So due to those moves, we feel waiting to bring the US into the war is in our best interests. First if Germany can keep the UK navy at bay, they really don’t have to worry about a big European invasion until round 6 at the earliest.

    Not quite true.  The US can dump as many as 18 (I haven’t been able to work out how to get more, it seems impossible) ground units + air (if the the UK still held it) on Gibraltar US4.  If you don’t have naval blockers available, then these troops are going to show up in Italy or northern France (or even Norway) on US5.  If the Allied player planned ahead regarding Turkey and can’t or won’t deal with blockers, then these troops can get dumped right into Spain US4 and the US player gets an extra space that can hold a minor IC in it.  Sweden is a bit of a non-issue; unless Germany still has a lot of Transports left the INF there will be too far away to have any immediate impact, and if Germany has no way to activate it right away, then you have one or more turns of a grace period before they even get to start moving.

    The don't attack the UK navy at all G1 plan makes this move even more dangerous.  The UK can either start shucking men into Norway while they wait for the US to show up, or focus on additional shipbuilding to make sure the Italians will never be able to block US arrival in the Med.  Because of this I would argue that the US has more than just the 1 shot at taking Rome as mentioned earlier- they should have at least a shot with attacks on US5 & US6, provided that another wave of GIs is right behind the first one.  Even more chances if you still hold Cairo, which I would consider likely given that you’ve tied the hands of the Japanese.  The only way to stop this massive hammer-blow is for Japan to threaten Hawaii or Sydney sufficiently, but if this means Calcutta holds out a bit longer, then the Allies can afford to lose one of those for a little while.



  • Don’t attack the true neutrals! Germany gets 2 free in for switzerland, 6 for sweeden, and 8 for turkey. Japan gets all of mongolia and afghanistan. Also, from what I am seeing about how many units you are landing with US in Europe, Japan is going to be a monster!


  • 2020 2018 2017 '15

    1) are you not attacking UK navy at all besides z109?  what about scramble?
    A) No, I am not attacking ANY UK navy other than the TT and DD in 109.  Yes, the UK will scramble.  In three victories, the DD and TT are sunk every time, and you usually survive with 2-3 SS (which are then destroyed on UK1).  The primary objective is to eliminate their “lift” capability.  If they can’t hit any coastline, I’m free to move everything out of Norway.
    In just about every game I’ve seen, the German SSs don’t last very long, usually with none left past Turn 2.  It’s best to use the as fodder and take out what you want.  In this case, I eliminate that TT without risking planes.  The UK simply has too many starting DDs and planes to take out my subs.
    B) The secondary benefit is that it may shift the UK player’s thinking towards building a navy (best route to victory here).  This removes pressure from Italy and makes taking Egypt easier.  Germany lands 3 Ftr & 2 Tac in Southern Italy Rd1.  If the UK doesn’t spend anything in South Africa or build a minor factory in Egypt, Italy has enough units to take Egypt.
    C)  The addition of landing those German fighters into Italy means an extra Ftr to scramble, making any UK1 assault on SZ97 a 51% chance of success at best (including using the UK bomber that lands in Malta.)
    So if the UK attacks SZ 97, they will have nothing but a CC in SZ 96 (that combined with the Gib Ftr to kill the italian DD TT there.

    2) airstrike on West Ukraine seems pretty high risk for modest benefit
    It depends on who you are playing against as Russia.  The best defense against this smash and grab is for RUS to counterattack Rd 2.  The Inf and Art can be used to take back Bessarabia.  Because if RUS doesn’t, the Ukraine is guaranteed to fall G2.
    To throw some numbers out there, if RUS goes “all in” on defending the Ukraine and doesn’t retake Bessarabia, buys 3 FTRs Rd1, and moves everything it can there, they end up with 3 Inf 2 Mech 2 Tanks, 5 Ftr 1 Tac.
    Germany can bring 4 Tanks, 4 Ftr, 5 Tac, 2 Bombers.  90% of victory.  
    The key is to prevent RUS from counter-attacking and pushing G1 back.  Each territory lost to RUS is one more turn the US gets to help out.  If RUS doesn’t push them back, Moscow is down Rd5 or Rd6.

    3) Russia might strafe Baltic States and retreat to Novgorod or Belarus
    Any counter attack in the Baltic States is irrelevant.  At the end of G1, there are 10 Inf 2 Art in Poland and 8 Tanks in Germany.  On G2, Poland and Eastern Poland forces converge on the Baltic States along with 11-12 Tanks.  Planes land in Poland, and 7 Inf move into Karelia.  Novgorod gets hit by everything G3.  17 Inf, 10+ Tanks, and as much airforce as needed.  There is 0% chance of RUS holding onto it.
    The best I could raise it was to 1% if RUS buys 9 Mechs and moves them to Novogrod, buys 3 Ftr Rd2, and Germany uses none of its airforce in the attack.

    1. what is the plan for G2 and beyond?  
      Attacking G1 with everything puts enormous pressure on RUS.  The hope is the Allies get distracted by a big UK navy and don’t end up sending any planes to Moscow.
      As Japan doesn’t attack at all, the US can’t help out until Rd 4.  And if the UK focuses on building a navy, Italy will have a great chance at Egypt.
      Because Germany is moving everything East, and saving units by not attacking Yugoslavia, they can buy just Tanks.  Rd1 5 Tanks.  Rd2 10 Tanks.  Rd3 6 Tanks, 2 Inf 1 Art.
      Germany after Rd1 should concentrate their airforce to remind the UK how much protection they’ll need.  If they under buy or divide their navy, they can be piecemealed.  Beyond Rd 3, G has enough units to take Moscow but should keep adding 3 units in the Ukraine as you advance.  The rest becomes counter-attack forces in France.  For every two units Germany places, the UK has to counter with the added cost of a transport.

    As Germany can’t compete ship-for-ship while spending so much on land units, they amass their airforce to buy time, reminding the UK how much protection they’ll need. 4 Ftr 4 Tac 2 Bombers would give any navy pause.  They have to overcome that with ships, buy transports, AND buy enough guys to land.  That’s a tough thing to do with under 30 ICs a turn.
    Germany should focus more on Inf Art in France.  Leave the coasts clear and push them back off with your land units and planes.  The Germany navy will park in SZ 113, and you can land 2 units and planes in Norway if they try to “sneak around”.  So keep a couple units in Western Germany with your airforce, several units in France, and fend them off till Moscow is down.

    The tricky parts for the Allies is how does the US spend their money, and what the UK player decides to do with that starting navy.
    In the three loses, they came down to poor decisions that arose from not having seen this strategy before.  They were:
    Lose 1:  The UK focused too much on their navy and handed Egypt over to Italy.  The US went north to help with the continued Normandy landings (that were getting pushed off each turn by Germany), but RUS fell too fast, and their transports were only on Normandy by games end and not a VC.  Victory Axis.
    Lose 2:  The US bought too much protection and too little transports.  This time they went for Rome, having only one chance.  But since Italy had little to do but purchase INF, and they were backed up by German planes, the US couldn’t take Rome.  Victory Axis.
    Lose 3:  The US overcompensated by doing their own “all-in” against Germany, going so far as to move the Pacific fleet over to Europe.  This lead to a Japanese victory (India-Hawaii).  Japan did a J4 India crush move, then saved and dropped down enough protection for their existing TTs and took Hawaii.  When the US saw what they were doing, they couldn’t get anything into position in time.



  • @theROCmonster:

    Don’t attack the true neutrals! Germany gets 2 free in for switzerland, 6 for sweeden, and 8 for turkey. Japan gets all of mongolia and afghanistan. Also, from what I am seeing about how many units you are landing with US in Europe, Japan is going to be a monster!

    Yea I agree, while i see the reason you would go through there seeing as its a quick landing on the European front giving Germany and Japan all those free units would severly hurt the allies


  • 2020 2018 2017 '15

    The UK can either start shucking men into Norway while they wait for the US to show up,
    That doesn’t really materialize.  With 10+ planes parked in Western Germany, you won’t be able to land for some time, unless you plan on throwing away your transports.  UK 1 you have no transports in Europe.  If you then buy additional transports UK2 to combine with the lone TT from Canada, then you won’t have enough protection against those planes.  If you buy all protection for that 1TT from Canada, it won’t be able to land on Norway until Rd 2.  If you attack that early, then you’ve moved away from your airbase protection, lowering your defense by 3 Ftr, meaning whatever you’ve moved to Norway can then be wiped out.
    Anything that does land (assuming you’ve amassed enough protection), then those planes attack Norway instead of the fleet, with 2 land units and 2 offshore shots.
    If Germany sees this strategy developing, they can start to buy 1 ss a turn as extra fodder when their planes attack.
    If the UK is to take and hold Norway, it won’t happen for several turns.  By the time Germany can’t take it back, they’ll be close to victory anyway.

    **or focus on additional shipbuilding to make sure the Italians will never be able to block US arrival in the Med. **
    This doesn’t work too well either.  I just posted above that the Axis have seen victories at the end of Round 5 (not typical)! And 6 (Usual).  Italy doesn’t need to block to prevent a landing.  They’ve been stocking Italy up with guys.  Germany parks their airforce in Southern Italy.  9 TTs worth of stuff can’t take that.
    Especially since Rd 4 on, Germany is spending most of it’s 50+ ICs on defense.  Mechs in Germany can move anywhere as needed for def or counter attacking.

    **Because of this I would argue that the US has more than just the 1 shot at taking Rome as mentioned earlier- they should have at least a shot with attacks on US5 & US6, provided that another wave of GIs is right behind the first one. **
    Ah, but my experience has been that the first wave is always the biggest (due to the build up).  Any successive wave will only be however much the US can buy in a single round.  5 TTs worth of Inf and Art?  Guaranteed by Rd 5 Germany can drop 10 Tanks a turn in Western Germany.  They’ll be making 60+ even before Moscow falls.  That’s a whole lot of counter attacking power.
    **Even more chances if you still hold Cairo, which I would consider likely given that you’ve tied the hands of the Japanese. **
    I’m not sure how that relates, actually.  Japan taking Cairo is such a longshot.  The UK has too many blocking ships that Japan won’t get there until very late.
    And I disagree that it’s likely the UK has Egypt.  If the UK spends their money on ships for attempted Norway landings, etc., Italy starts with enough units to take Egypt.

    The only way to stop this massive hammer-blow is for Japan to threaten Hawaii or Sydney sufficiently,
    Actually, it’s the opposite.  The Japanese player must threaten India.  If they don’t, and it’s clear they’re gunning for a different VC first, then India is free to help reinforce Egypt.


  • '12

    @theROCmonster:

    Don’t attack the true neutrals! Germany gets 2 free in for Switzerland, 6 for Sweden, and 8 for Turkey. Japan gets all of Mongolia and Afghanistan. Also, from what I am seeing about how many units you are landing with US in Europe, Japan is going to be a monster!

    I mentioned earlier you do have to plan on Turkey.  All the other countries you mention are non-issues.  The 2 INF from Switzerland isn’t going to turn the tide of a major battle and there is no income there.  All the other neutrals you mention are too remote to have their troops make a difference in in the time-frame in which this type of game will be decided (round 5 - 7).  The Swedish troops might contribute, it depends on the tactical situation at the time, but they are guaranteed to be at least two turns away from doing anything.  Sweden also has income but the 3 IPC gain is less than the 5 IPCs Germany loses from the Swedish Ore NO.

    Either the UK or Russia has to be able to make the sacrifice to hit Turkey, so the Axis won’t collect those free INF.  Typically neither Italy nor Germany has left any troops in Greece or Bulgaria by that point which could be used to respond.  I’ll agree that it could be very unwise in some games to make this kind of play, but it’s a far cry from saying you should never go for it.  If you’re looking at the map and saying I'm going to lose for sure in round 6 if I don't force an immediate Axis response that saves Russia, then you are going to do whatever you need to do.  Mongolia, Afghanistan, Angola, etc., are late-game worries.  You need to make sure there will even be a late-game first.

    It’s true Japan has extra time to build up, but if it’s a J4 DoW you’re looking at, then Calcutta and ANZAC are also going to be allowed to be as powerful as they would ever be before they have to face the Japanese.  Starting on US4 you can start making 100% Pacific buys if you have to in order to fight or hold for Hawaii.  I don’t think a J4 attack can hit both Hawaii and Calcutta- they will have to pick one or the other.  My current KGF plans also call for sending the starting Pacific fleet to Europe, but I also focus on making sure I produce 9 units a turn, so San Francisco is at least getting some ships there before I’m at war.  If I’m being presented with the G1 in which the Royal Navy has only lost 1 DD & 1 TT, I might start to feel that I can leave more of the Pacific fleet behind to make it more certain that Japan can’t have both Calcutta and Hawaii past J6 and beyond.


  • '16 '15 '10

    Attacking neutrals will not work against an opponent that knows how to exploit it.  If you don’t pre-emptively conquer South America, Japan takes it over.  There are great opportunities for Italy as well.  Germany gets a huge bevy of troops to defend Scandinavia.  Even if the Allies have the resources to conquer Turkey, it would be costly, and now Germany/Italy have a quick path to oil riches.

    It might be fun to devise a house rule where attacking neutrals is not as strategically damaging as it is, in order to encourage more varied strategies.


  • '12

    @Whackamatt:

    Even more chances if you still hold Cairo, which I would consider likely given that you’ve tied the hands of the Japanese.�
    I�m not sure how that relates, actually.� Japan taking Cairo is such a longshot.� The UK has too many blocking ships that Japan won�t get there until very late.
    And I disagree that it�s likely the UK has Egypt.� If the UK spends their money on ships for attempted Norway landings, etc., Italy starts with enough units to take Egypt.

    I wasn’t implying that Japan takes Cairo.  I was saying that the game is far from over since Italy is going to either be defending Europe or taking Cairo, but not both.  I don’t think you have any way to guarantee that Italy is holding (or less likely, still holding) Cairo by G7 when Germany wins assuming they took all the Russian VCs by G6.  By leaving the UK so many ships in UK1 you’re probably ensuring that the Taranto attack goes off without a hitch even if the Axis scramble.  In this case I would definitely build the Cairo IC as well UK1.  If that means you are encouraged to switch your plans to try Sea Lion, then I’ve already saved Russia (short-term).  Don’t forget that with your starting TT in the Med and another purchase on UK2 in South Africa you can shuck troops directly up to Cairo and speed up the tedious walk.

    You could probably put a lock on the Italy win in Egypt by sending the German Air Force down there on a sacrifice play, but this weakens your argument that this same Air Force is always on hand to stop any shenanigans in Europe.  I would expect all of this to work to the Allies’ benefit, since the more Germany and Italy find themselves investing in Egypt before Russia goes, the easier it will be for the US to invade.

    @Whackamatt:

    The only way to stop this massive hammer-blow is for Japan to threaten Hawaii or Sydney sufficiently,
    Actually, it�s the opposite.  The Japanese player must threaten India.  If they don�t, and it�s clear they�re gunning for a different VC first, then India is free to help reinforce Egypt.

    If they do, then you probably (but I won’t say it’s impossible) won’t get the Pacific win.  All of those forces will then have to be redirected east to get the last VC, giving the Allies more time to cobble together a counter.   I’m sure you could also goad the Japanese into spoiling the plan and attacking earlier by making it just tempting enough with UK forces going west out of India right from UK1.  Maybe not worth it, but if you’re honestly thinking yourself in an I'll lose in turn 6 no matter what situation, nearly anything is worth a try.



  • @Eqqman:

    @theROCmonster:

    Don’t attack the true neutrals! Germany gets 2 free in for Switzerland, 6 for Sweden, and 8 for Turkey. Japan gets all of Mongolia and Afghanistan. Also, from what I am seeing about how many units you are landing with US in Europe, Japan is going to be a monster!

    I mentioned earlier you do have to plan on Turkey.  All the other countries you mention are non-issues.  The 2 INF from Switzerland isn’t going to turn the tide of a major battle and there is no income there.  All the other neutrals you mention are too remote to have their troops make a difference in in the time-frame in which this type of game will be decided (round 5 - 7).  The Swedish troops might contribute, it depends on the tactical situation at the time, but they are guaranteed to be at least two turns away from doing anything.  Sweden also has income but the 3 IPC gain is less than the 5 IPCs Germany loses from the Swedish Ore NO.

    Either the UK or Russia has to be able to make the sacrifice to hit Turkey, so the Axis won’t collect those free INF.  Typically neither Italy nor Germany has left any troops in Greece or Bulgaria by that point which could be used to respond.  I’ll agree that it could be very unwise in some games to make this kind of play, but it’s a far cry from saying you should never go for it.  If you’re looking at the map and saying I'm going to lose for sure in round 6 if I don't force an immediate Axis response that saves Russia, then you are going to do whatever you need to do.  Mongolia, Afghanistan, Angola, etc., are late-game worries.  You need to make sure there will even be a late-game first.

    It’s true Japan has extra time to build up, but if it’s a J4 DoW you’re looking at, then Calcutta and ANZAC are also going to be allowed to be as powerful as they would ever be before they have to face the Japanese.  Starting on US4 you can start making 100% Pacific buys if you have to in order to fight or hold for Hawaii.  I don’t think a J4 attack can hit both Hawaii and Calcutta- they will have to pick one or the other.  My current KGF plans also call for sending the starting Pacific fleet to Europe, but I also focus on making sure I produce 9 units a turn, so San Francisco is at least getting some ships there before I’m at war.  If I’m being presented with the G1 in which the Royal Navy has only lost 1 DD & 1 TT, I might start to feel that I can leave more of the Pacific fleet behind to make it more certain that Japan can’t have both Calcutta and Hawaii past J6 and beyond.

    Ok first off that German Iron Ore NO still woks as long as Sweeden is axis controlled or neutral… Um I never wait till J4 to attack allies. Also how are you going to attack Turkey? Like the axis won’t see it coming a mile away when you have tons of russian troops stationed in caucus for no reason?


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