Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1

Another issue, along with these neutral block rules, we should probably decide if there need to be any adjustments to the neutral force pools at game startup, because that could possibly affect which states are in which blocks.

For the most part the initial setups as printed on the map are fine, and we could just go with those, but I have some ideas I would like to put forward and see what people think.

Printed on the map are inf numbers for various neutral nations.  They are easy to see and assist us in setting up the neutrals if they get attacked.  Just because the numbers of inf are printed on there, doesn’t mean we cannot add other unit types to certain territories.  I also think adding neutral ships is very possible by simply naming the sz to place.  This would be similar to the last page in the Xeno’s W@W rule book that listed neutral countries armies.  IF units get added to neutral nations, it should be based solely on balance and game play issues, with perhaps merely a basis on historical fact.

UNITS I WOULD ADD:

In order to make a US conquest of SAmerica slightly harder, I would propose adding an attack unit to Argentina, perhaps an art.  I would also add a dd to Chile and a dd CA for Argentina.  This would represent the fleets for all Samerican states.

In Africa I would add 1 unit, preferably an inf to Liberia even though that goes against the printed on information.  This is to represent all garrison troops of Liberia/sierra leone/Rio de Oro and to give the allies a threat to their back  door should they choose to invade Spain, much like Angola and Mozambique do for Safrica if Spain is activated.  The only other value these territories would add to the Axis if Spain was invaded would be as landing zones for aircraft.  Perhaps this is advantage enough, only playtesting will show.

In Asia I would not be adverse to adding units to Turkey, even units that might significantly increase it’s defensive capabilities.  I would counsel against any mobile units though, Turkey had a large military but not very modern.  Adding 1 art 1 ftr, or perhaps even an aa gun might do the trick.  I would also add a dd and perhaps a trn to Turkey in the Black Sea.

Sweden could use a bit more strength too, I would add an art and a ftr here as well.  Sweden could also get a dd for coastal defense, they had the largest fleet in Scandinavia.  Also a mountainous country and modern weapons.

Iberia is definitely the one area that needs the most work.  Spain is just too tempting of a target to invade on the way into Europe.  However the value of the territory cannot be denied.  What about taking the NB away from Gib and adding it to Spain for instance?  Or just giving Spain a NB.  I think Spain should get a ftr, and perhaps an arm to represent all that Civil war material that is left over.  I would give them a CA and a dd and possibly a trn, all in the same sz inside the Med. Possibly add 1 dd to Portugal.  They needed the fleet to defend their far flung empire.

One issue these changes might bring about is that attacking neutrals, or at least some neutrals would become prohibitive.  Not sure if this is the way we want to go or not.

This is a subject where getting some advice from IL over on Larry’s site would be nice.  He knows the exact numbers for alot of these nations armies/fleets.  I would like to use that information as a basis but slant everything towards balance over reality.

I know Spain wasn’t the world power it was prior to WWI, but a Spainish fleet shouldnt be totally out of the question.  2 Destroyers, 1 Transport, 1 Cruiser wouldn’t be totally out of the question.  Maybe add a cruiser and a destroyer to Turkey (in SZ 100) as well.

I like the S. American fleet units.  However, I would give them an Armor, not an Artillery.

@Cmdr:

I know Spain wasn’t the world power it was prior to WWI, but a Spainish fleet shouldnt be totally out of the question.  2 Destroyers, 1 Transport, 1 Cruiser wouldn’t be totally out of the question.  Maybe add a cruiser and a destroyer to Turkey (in SZ 100) as well.

I like the S. American fleet units.  However, I would give them an Armor, not an Artillery.

Indeed, I thought about adding more ships but not sure if that might imbalance the game?  Turkey had like 4 capital ships and a bunch of dd’s, although that is about the same size as Sweden’s fleet.  I thought about an arm in Samerica, would the 2 movement be too much of an asset to the Axis?(in the scenario where US tries to activate Samerica)  Also it’s mostly jungly which tanks hate:)  I’m not a big fan of giving Samerica an aircraft because the axis would just try and make it escape.  Also I didn’t add any ss’s because of fear of wayward subs and CRD, but perhaps they could be used in Spanish fleet?

Maybe Samerica needs 2 arty?

I don’t think any boost we could do to a neutral would actually unbalance things, as long as it’s a true neutral.

Turkey:  Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, Transport SZ 100
Spain: Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, Transport SZ 104
Argentina:  Destroyer SZ 66

@wheatbeer:

Semi-Block Neutral Rules (revised)
C. All other strict neutrals (SWI, SWE, TURK, SAUD, AFG) are not aligned with any other strict neutral.  If any of these territories are attacked, it will not affect the status of any other territory.  For example, if the USSR attacks the strict neutral Saudi Arabia, Sweden remains a strict neutral.

Wheatbeer, I am just wondering if your revised Neutral Block rule should add some kind of deterrent to the Axis violating the neutrality of Turkey?  I know they have to fight those 8 Turkish infantry, but then they get access to the Black Sea, Iraq, Iraq’s army, middle east oil, and a southern route into Caucasus.  Italy’s navy could transport troops in through the Bosphorous and never have to mess around with Syria, z99, Greece airbase, all that crap.

Just so we are on the same page, is this setup going to be a more advanced/tactical rule set for the total war emmersion experiance or a streamlined basic rule set to replace Alpha 3. I might notbe asking this question in the right thread.

@TheDefinitiveS:

Just so we are on the same page, is this setup going to be a more advanced/tactical rule set for the total war emmersion experiance or a streamlined basic rule set to replace Alpha 3. I might notbe asking this question in the right thread.

It’s my goal to have a replacement set to completely replace Alpha 3.

Unless something drastic happens, this ruleset may become the official AA.org tournament rule set.

@TheDefinitiveS:

Just so we are on the same page, is this setup going to be a more advanced/tactical rule set for the total war emmersion experiance or a streamlined basic rule set to replace Alpha 3. I might notbe asking this question in the right thread.

I agree with Jenn our main concern should be simplicity and a balanced game.  Simplicity towards online play as well.  I do think we should be concerned with a 3v3 game over a 1v1.  Having the multiheaded alliances makes this game fun!

That doesn’t mean we can’t have some total war immersion if it also makes the game more fun while not messing with balance.

replaced older rules proposal with Simplified Collaborative Neutral Block rules later in thread

Looks good to me, wheatbeer.

Just to explain what I labelled Collaborative:

Young Grasshopper: There seems to be support for neutral navies and some toughening.  I added naval and air units since it will not contradict the printed map, but just supplement it.

Vance: I went back to the original Blocks except that Sweden and Switzerland are on their own.  I hope now that an Axis attack on Turkey is slightly tougher, that there are neutral naval units, and that the Allies can counter with Saudi and Afghan forces balances out the Axis strategic benefits.

JimmyHat: Let me know what you think about the addition of fighters.  I just left Liberia and Sierra Leone as unaligned strict neutrals since they didn’t have any connection to Spain and Portugal.  I hope the Swedish navy helps to address your concerns about Germans attacking without penalty.

Cmdr Jennifer: I like your fleet suggestions.  I also added Swedish naval forces.  I hope you don’t mind my making the fleets uniform for simplicity’s sake.  Should I add transports to each as well?  I wasn’t sure what your reasoning was there.

Two reasons I had transports.
1)  If the territory is annexed you have immediate threat from amphibious assaults.
2)  If you attack the territory and lose, you have threat of retalliation.

Is it important?  I guess not.

So control of the neutral navies (if not sunk in the same Combat phase as the territory) would work how?  Default to nearest power or naval unit?

For example, Germany invades Turkey.  Does the Turkish navy become pro-allies and require an Allied naval unit to enter it’s SZ?

Or perhaps if the Axis attacks, they join whichever Allied navy the Allies choose.  And if the Allies attack they join whichever Axis navy the Axis chooses.

Or say it goes pirate if it’s home is destroyed and won’t join anyone?  That way we don’t get questions about, “Well, can I sail a submarine over to the fleet and get Turkey since it’s pro-Axis?”  Rather not have that issue at all.

If it goes pirate, it’s no longer a disincentive or balancing force though.  Unless you mean something different than I am gathering.

Wheatbeer, I am happy with the Collaborative Neutral Blocks rules.

Saudi Arabia would be a good place for an American minor IC when the Axis invade Turkey.

Also like the neutral navies and air forces and the 3IPC propaganda cost for American imperialism.

As for who controls the neutrals and their navies/air forces, I would suggest Italy for the Axis side and France for the Allies side if for no other reason than they come last in the turn order.  So if turkey is attacked, the ships in z100 become French.

The only other piece I would like to suggest is a further deterrent to invading spain or turkey:

Sweden and Switzerland
If any Allied power attacks any territory or warship in the Iberia Block, Sweden and Switzerland immediately become pro-axis neutral.  If any Axis power attacks any territory or warship in the Islamic Block, Sweden and Switzerland become pro-allies neutral.

My issue with the conditional: what happens if the Allies invade Spain on turn 5 but then the Axis invade Turkey on turn 6?  Or if the Axis invade Turkey turn 5 and the Allies invade Spain turn 6?  Will Sweden flip back and forth?  Or only flip once?

If a strict neutral territory or a member of its block is attacked by the Allies, its navy (if any) immediately falls under the command of the Axis navy of the Axis player’s choice.  If a strict neutral territory or a member of its block is attacked by the Axis, its navy (if any) immediately falls under the command of the Allies navy of the Allies player’s choice.

Does anyone feel this will create problems?

Young Grasshopper, I’ll move navies to the bottom and label it “suggested” for now then.