Convoy questions!



  • I am preparing my shrude Axis-strategy for my first Global game with my friend, but I dont have the european rulebook at home (gonna get a copy soon), so my apologies if these questions are a bit stupid:

    1. Is a convoy disruption considered a DOW? F. ex.:Can the russians move their sub in sz 127 into an uncontested sz 125 on Sovjet-1 even if their not allowed to attack Germany at this stage? Can Germany, in the same way, disrupt US convoys without provoking the US into war?

    2. Is moving a war ship into an uncontested convoy zone (to disrupt) considered a combat move or a non-combat move?

    3. Can you disrupt a convoy with a sub by moving it into a contested sz (where there is enemy war ships, but not a destroyer)?

    Thanks! And greetings from Oslo (-:



  • I can answer easy questions!

    First let me say, you should but a 2 liter of Jolt cola and spend a day or 2 reading the sticky threat A&AGlobal FAQ or something like that.  Its right up above this post and hold many kernels of valuable rules.  A quick study of that should equip you with the ability to wade through any rule.

    1. You can only convoy disrupt when at war, it is not a DOW.  You would have to DOW before hand.  There is nothing keeping Russia from leaving that sub there when not at war, it just would not convoy raid.

    2)it depends, if the convoy zone is empty, than it is a noncombat move.  If it is a hostile zone, then you would have to move in in combat to clear the convoy.  This means you can sometimes attack a convoy zone with 1 dd and many planes against many subs.  If you clear the zone and they kill your dd, then just move another combat ship into the zone in noncom.

    3)Yes.  In fact I believe you can move into the zone in noncom even if there is a dd.  The enemy can attack you on their turn of course.



  • I’ve got a question too.
    During the collect income phase, it is possible to have lose money due to convoy raids creating a net loss?
    For instance, if London’s income comes from only United Kingdom and Scottland [income = 8], and there are four subs in sz 109 and a sub in sz 119 [convoy raid = -10], does London have to give up 2 IPCs that it had saved from the previous turn?



  • @MacNaughton:

    I’ve got a question too.
    During the collect income phase, it is possible to have lose money due to convoy raids creating a net loss?
    For instance, if London’s income comes from only United Kingdom and Scottland (income = 8), and there are four subs in sz 109 and a sub in sz 119 (convoy raid = -10), does London have to give up 2 IPCs that it had saved from the previous turn?

    No, cuz then nothing would be "convoy"ed



  • No you only “lose” money in the collect income phase so you could get nothing. However net loss would be an interesting house rule to resemble things like food blockades.



  • I don’t think double-dipping is allowed.



  • Tell that to the Germans  :evil:



  • The total amount taken from convoy raids is equal to the territory amount…so the UK is 6 and Scotland is 2 so the total amount that they would not be able to collect would be 8 and it wouldnt matter if there were  twenty subs in the convoy raid.



  • @TheDefinitiveS:

    The total amount taken from convoy raids is equal to the territory amount…so the UK is 6 and Scotland is 2 so the total amount that they would not be able to collect would be 8 and it wouldnt matter if there were  twenty subs in the convoy raid.

    That’s if the disruption occurs in SZ 109.  However, if disruption occurs in both SZ 109 AND SZ 119, the UK can lose up to 8 from SZ109 AND another 2 from SZ 119.  Double dipping CAN occur, but only in seperate seazones hitting a single territory.  They would never return saved money, as that’s already in the bank, but they would not collect anything each round if their income was 10 ipcs or less.

    For example (using Alpha 2 objectives) and assuming that the UK has lost control of all canadian, african and middle east territories and is reduced to ONLY the UK and Scotland:

    if Germany had max disruption on SZ 109 and 119 using only surface fleet units and had no submarines anywhere except 100, 113, 115, or 116, the the UK income would be 6 for UK, 2 for scotland, plus 5 for the national objective,

    ~~but would collect only 3 IPCs because both convoy zones are hit for their full amount. ~~

    Revision - national objective income cannot be disrupted (West US in Pac 40 is only ever worth 10).  Krieghund, please confirm - can convoy damage that exceeds territorial income per example cannot affect national objective income.  In the above example, Britain should collect 5 from the objective.

    Source:
    @Krieghund:

    UK can lose only 2 IPCs from sea zone 119, as it only touches Scotland.  It can lose 8 IPCs from sea zone 109, as it touches both Scotland and United Kingdom.

    4 subs in sea zone 119 and 1 sub in sea zone 109 will result in a reduction in income of 4 IPCs for UK.  However, 4 subs in sea zone 109 and 1 sub in sea zone 119 would result in a reduction in income of 10 IPCs.  In any case, income may not be reduced below zero.



  • @JimmyHat:

    I can answer easy questions!

    First let me say, you should but a 2 liter of Jolt cola and spend a day or 2 reading the sticky threat A&AGlobal FAQ or something like that.  Its right up above this post and hold many kernels of valuable rules.  A quick study of that should equip you with the ability to wade through any rule.

    1. You can only convoy disrupt when at war, it is not a DOW.  You would have to DOW before hand.  There is nothing keeping Russia from leaving that sub there when not at war, it just would not convoy raid.

    2)it depends, if the convoy zone is empty, than it is a noncombat move.  If it is a hostile zone, then you would have to move in in combat to clear the convoy.  This means you can sometimes attack a convoy zone with 1 dd and many planes against many subs.  If you clear the zone and they kill your dd, then just move another combat ship into the zone in noncom.

    3)Yes.  In fact I believe you can move into the zone in noncom even if there is a dd.  The enemy can attack you on their turn of course.

    Thanks Jimmy!! Infact I have read through the whole FAQ thread, but still havent got a copy of the Europe 1940 rulebook )-: I was wondering why some people seems to buy a DD on Germany1, when you really dont need one until you are going to make a DOW on Sovjet (assuming your right about the convoy- rules).

    Im planning for sea lion on G1, so Ill probably buy me at least an AC to protect the fleet, maybe also a CA (why is the cruiser dubbed CA?) or two transports. Anyone got a better buy on G1 when sea lion is the master plan?



  • @General:

    maybe also a CA (why is the cruiser dubbed CA?)

    US Navy hull classification symbols. CV = carrier, BB = battleship, CA = heavy cruiser, CL = light cruiser, etc.



  • @Hobbes:

    @General:

    maybe also a CA (why is the cruiser dubbed CA?)

    US Navy hull classification symbols. CV = carrier, BB = battleship, CA = heavy cruiser, CL = light cruiser, etc.

    Thanks! My military knowledge capital isnt the highest, even though Ive seen shit loads of war movies, especially about WW2 (-:



  • @kcdzim:

    @TheDefinitiveS:

    The total amount taken from convoy raids is equal to the territory amount…so the UK is 6 and Scotland is 2 so the total amount that they would not be able to collect would be 8 and it wouldnt matter if there were  twenty subs in the convoy raid.

    That’s if the disruption occurs in SZ 109.  However, if disruption occurs in both SZ 109 AND SZ 119, the UK can lose up to 8 from SZ109 AND another 2 from SZ 119.  Double dipping CAN occur, but only in seperate seazones hitting a single territory.  They would never return saved money, as that’s already in the bank, but they would not collect anything each round if their income was 10 ipcs or less.

    For example (using Alpha 2 objectives) and assuming that the UK has lost control of all canadian, african and middle east territories and is reduced to ONLY the UK and Scotland:

    if Germany had max disruption on SZ 109 and 119 using only surface fleet units and had no submarines anywhere except 100, 113, 115, or 116, the the UK income would be 6 for UK, 2 for scotland, plus 5 for the national objective, but would collect only 3 IPCs because both convoy zones are hit for their full amount.

    Source:
    @Krieghund:

    UK can lose only 2 IPCs from sea zone 119, as it only touches Scotland.  It can lose 8 IPCs from sea zone 109, as it touches both Scotland and United Kingdom.

    4 subs in sea zone 119 and 1 sub in sea zone 109 will result in a reduction in income of 4 IPCs for UK.  However, 4 subs in sea zone 109 and 1 sub in sea zone 119 would result in a reduction in income of 10 IPCs.  In any case, income may not be reduced below zero.

    Thanks very much. That is a very thorough answer.



  • “I´m planning for sea lion on G1, so Ill probably buy me at least an AC to protect the fleet, maybe also a CA (why is the cruiser dubbed CA?) or two transports. Anyone got a better buy on G1 when sea lion is the master plan?”

    How exactly are you gonna do this General? 😉



  • You can’t double dip a convoy disruption!  You can only disrupt upto the value of the territory nomater what seazone it’s in ie London and Scotland can only be hit for a total of 8 in one turn.  The only double-dipping I see happening is when two countries have land attached to a disruption ie Italy grease, yougoslavia.  If Germany owned yougoslavia and grease and USA had 2 subs there on italys collect income phase thy would loose 4 and on germanys collect income they would loose 4 as well.



  • @Nibface:

    “I´m planning for sea lion on G1, so Ill probably buy me at least an AC to protect the fleet, maybe also a CA (why is the cruiser dubbed CA?) or two transports. Anyone got a better buy on G1 when sea lion is the master plan?”

    How exactly are you gonna do this General? 😉

    Greetings mr Nibface 😄 Of course Im not planning on attacking the UK on G1, but I can see how the above sentence could be interpreted in this way. G3 will probably be the one.

    Anyway, my (strategically inferior) opponent is probably not expecting a sea lion, and will most likely splash his cash trying to develop some stupid secret weapon 😐 Even though Ive already told him theres no such thing as a secret weapon in A&A, he still insists hes gonna make “the most cunning weapon the world has ever seen”(!). It seems its gonna be an easy win this time 😄


  • Official Answers

    @Peck:

    You can’t double dip a convoy disruption!

    Yes, you can, under the conditions kcdzim described.



  • Oh.  I stand corrected , I have been playing that one wrong then.



  • Quick clarification:

    in before mentioned case, UK income 8+5 from NO, 4 ger subs in sz109 and 1 in sz119.
    would uk loose 8 or 10 ipc due to convoy disruption?

    afaik you cant convoy disrup NO?

    many thx
    Zcion



  • @Zcion:

    Quick clarification:

    in before mentioned case, UK income 8+5 from NO, 4 ger subs in sz109 and 1 in sz119.
    would uk loose 8 or 10 ipc due to convoy disruption?

    afaik you cant convoy disrup NO?

    many thx
    Zcion

    Correct, disruption is capped by the surrounding territories’ income.



  • @Zallomallo:

    @Zcion:

    Quick clarification:

    in before mentioned case, UK income 8+5 from NO, 4 ger subs in sz109 and 1 in sz119.
    would uk loose 8 or 10 ipc due to convoy disruption?

    afaik you cant convoy disrup NO?

    many thx
    Zcion

    Correct, disruption is capped by the surrounding territories’ income.

    Well, it’s capped by the total value of each convoy zone’s adjacent spaces, which can technically exceed income collected from those territories.  But you’re correct in that disruption does not affect National Objectives or at least does not affect the 40 on West US.

    However, I’m not certain of the timing of convoy vs objectives and whether convoy disruption affects total income after objectives are collected.  Convoys can only affect values of territories, but since they can exceed income you’d collect from territories (by the double dips similar to 109/119), I don’t know whether than can dig a little into objectives.  Based on the Pac40 west US errata, it would seem no but this is not specifically addressed by the errata, which clarified that WUS was not worth 40, it was only worth 10, and could only be blocked up to 10.

    So, as long as britain is making an additional 2 ipcs income through other territories, if sz109 and sz119 are fully blocked, Britain will lose 10 ipcs (8 for 109 and 2 for 119).  If Britain is making less than 10 IPCs in income before national objectives, they collect 0 for those their territorial income, and then collect national objective ipcs.

    However, it’s VERY rare indeed that the UK does not still collect from an african or canadian territory that would put its territorial income over 10, in which case, if sc109 and 119 are fully blocked, they lose 10 IPCS.


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