Are Allies doomed from the outset on G40 map?

[SubmersedElk]

Over the past couple of weeks I’ve developed an Axis strategy I’m calling “J2I2”. It’s probably not original but it works for me and I’ve not seen anyone play it quite this way. My last two games I played against very strong players, one on the standard G40 map and once with the “Vichy France Balance mod”.

It’s a super conservative strategy with very little risk on the Axis side and it’s apparently impossible to stop on the standard map even with a healthy bid, and it even works with the balance mod. Very tolerant of mistakes on the Axis side, and Allies only need to miscalculate once and it’s game over.

As per the name, the Pac war starts on J2 and the European war starts on I2. Germany gets in the game on G3. I’ll write up a separate post about it but these experiences plus my experience as Allies with low luck settings convince me that the standard setup doesn’t let the Allies win against even a moderately skilled Axis player who follows the strategy.

Now that I have enough experience to judge, I’m afraid I have to agree, the standard G40 game is broken.

[regularkid]

Elk, it was a fluke I tells yuh! I demand a rematch.

[SubmersedElk]

I’m happy to give you a rematch. Keep in mind that I actually read the rest of the game notes today and figured out why the US was making 120 income a turn, and am not going to permit that for a second go-around!

[regularkid]

haha. i was wondering about that.

look forward to it!

[variance]

The game is backward.  The axis do not need to win a race against time like in the real war.  Instead time is on the axis side. The flaw at the heart of it is that Germany can lay a terrible siege on Russia and collect big fat oil money at the same time.  Meanwhile Japan keeps USA from doing anything about it.  I’ve seen it over and over again and its just no fun. A $20 bid is a good start but it doesn’t get to the heart of the problem; just a bandaid.  Here is what I suggest as a REAL fix for this game.

**RED ARMY IS THE STRONGEST **At the end of Russia’s turn they roll 1 dice for every 10 Russian units in Moscow (count any and all units of the Soviet Red Army).  Collect the total as an NO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsGQzNSwOhk****

[KimRYoung]

Grasshopper, I’m afraid Larry’s interest in doing anything further with this game has passed and that any play balance will have to come from the community.

That said, the bid is long accepted as the most agreed upon means, however to put some new life into that system for more strategic variability, how about inverse bidding? The bid is instead of ADDING units equal to the bid for the Allies, but is instead for that amount in units belonging to the Axis that will be REMOVED from the set up!

How much are you willing to give up as the Axis knowing that your opponent will be REMOVING that amount of units of yours of Their Choice?

A 20 point bid is now possibly 2 less Axis fighters, or a capital ship, or a couple tanks and a transport, the options are endless. The Axis may have to totally alter the Standard Opening’s and rethink their first turn attacks.

If the Axis advantage is material, then TAKING AWAY some of that advantage just might be much more effective than Allied bid additions, as well as taking away some of that early initiative with well calculated attacks.

What does Japan do with 4 less Infantry and 2 less Artillery do in China? How effective is Germany with 2 less Fighters to take on the UK navy? Italy could suffer a major disaster in Africa!

Think of the possibilities and then rethink what the bid might be. The options could really dictate some major strategic thought on both sides.

Kim

[Flying Tiger]

I am a bit confused. Germany and Italy seem to be crushing Russia from what I can gather from this thread. The axis players are bypassing Africa and leaving the $ to uk Europe. What is the UKeurope doing this whole time? Are they not landing troops in Normandy? Are they just shuffling fighter planes to Moscow? A western front relieves more pressure off of Russia than fighters in Moscow. If the German Air Force is bogging down the uk navy doesn’t that mean less $ being spent towards the eastern front? So what IS UKeurope doing?

[Flying Tiger]

What about the NOs? I am only playing with +30 to USA when at war. It plays well.
Are the Axis powers grabbing so many NOs early that it shifts the balance too quickly? I don’t hate the NOs in the game but I have always felt they should not have such a large part In the game.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Flying:

What about the NOs? I am only playing with +30 to USA when at war. It plays well.
Are the Axis powers grabbing so many NOs early that it shifts the balance too quickly? I don’t hate the NOs in the game but I have always felt they should not have such a large part In the game.

The US only gets +20 from NO’s at war, if they’ve lost the Philippines.

[SubmersedElk]

@KimRYoung:

Grasshopper, I’m afraid Larry’s interest in doing anything further with this game has passed and that any play balance will have to come from the community.

That said, the bid is long accepted as the most agreed upon means, however to put some new life into that system for more strategic variability, how about inverse bidding? The bid is instead of ADDING units equal to the bid for the Allies, but is instead for that amount in units belonging to the Axis that will be REMOVED from the set up!

How much are you willing to give up as the Axis knowing that your opponent will be REMOVING that amount of units of yours of Their Choice?

A 20 point bid is now possibly 2 less Axis fighters, or a capital ship, or a couple tanks and a transport, the options are endless. The Axis may have to totally alter the Standard Opening’s and rethink their first turn attacks.

If the Axis advantage is material, then TAKING AWAY some of that advantage just might be much more effective than Allied bid additions, as well as taking away some of that early initiative with well calculated attacks.

What does Japan do with 4 less Infantry and 2 less Artillery do in China? How effective is Germany with 2 less Fighters to take on the UK navy? Italy could suffer a major disaster in Africa!

Think of the possibilities and then rethink what the bid might be. The options could really dictate some major strategic thought on both sides.

Kim

you could screw over Japan pretty hard if you removed their starting transports

[MarshmallowofWar]

@SubmersedElk:

you could screw over Japan pretty hard if you removed their starting transports

You could also wreck the Med game by removing the Italian battleship (or hey, the cruiser and transport that normally survive past UK1 instead). You could wreck Germany by removing 3 or 4 tanks from Europe, making sure that Paris is an utter bloodbath for Germany AND insuring that at least one UK fleet survived because Germany would be forced to commit aircraft to the Paris battle.

I think this last one is my favorite under that bidding system. The UK has the core of a fleet surviving and France costs Germany so much that Russia gains a whole turn of life while Germany rebuilds.

IMO, this is a bad way to do bids.

However, I also think that giving bids by putting actual units on the board is a bad idea. I think that all bids should be IPCs in hand (to be divided among the side getting the bid as the players choose) simply because it can lead to more variety of play, and frankly variety of play is much desired in a highly-scripted game.

Marsh

[variance]

@Flying:

I am a bit confused. Germany and Italy seem to be crushing Russia from what I can gather from this thread. The axis players are bypassing Africa and leaving the $ to uk Europe. What is the UKeurope doing this whole time? Are they not landing troops in Normandy? Are they just shuffling fighter planes to Moscow? A western front relieves more pressure off of Russia than fighters in Moscow. If the German Air Force is bogging down the uk navy doesn’t that mean less $ being spent towards the eastern front? So what IS UKeurope doing?

Usually trying very hard to hold on to Egypt.

[RiceAndChine]

you could screw over Japan pretty hard if you removed their starting transports

possibly the best counter-argument against taking off the units, but still its a nice Idea

[Karl7]

I don’t know if someone has already said it, but according to the 2015 league results, of 461 games played, axis prevailed 251 to 210 for a 54% win margin over the allies 46%.

8% swing in favor of the Axis isn’t huge, but it is definitely indicating there is some advantage there.  This is also in the face that 20ish bid had become standard in the 2015 league.

It’s hard to ferret out if that win margin stands among players of equal skill or is the result of good players beating up on weak ones. I don’t think so since Gammerman has a weighed point system to entice better players to play against players of equal skill.  Maybe he could do a data analysis on that.

Regardless, it looks like 30ish bids are the way forward IMO.

[DesertFox_96]

What I have found is that Yes the Axis powers start off with a huge advantage over the Allies on all fronts and it is very difficult for the Allies to match the Axis powers let alone surpass them in materials and income (US exception because they are the most powerful nation in the games soon as they enter the war) the best way to play the Allies I find is a mix of spoiling attacks wherever possible (attacks where you either knock the Axis player down to 1 unit in the territory then retreat while your force still holds a strong presence or take a territory like Norway in a raid which requires the axis player to react a d counter attack taking units away from their main effort) and providing reinforcements to Russia and in the pacific, to the island of the East indies (the gold mine as I call it for Japan). It is costly and takes a few turns to really show its teeth but eventually you will find the Axis lacking in Infantry on all fronts, mean while powers like US and Russia can build up massive counter attack forces and when they go on the offensive effectively mark the end of Axis superiority and put the initiative in Allied hands, but as many of you have pointed out its a long road for the Allies and a costly one at that.

[SubmersedElk]

If you ask me, the Allies are much harder to play since the Axis decide where the focus is going to be, at least for the first 5 rounds or so. I can play Axis and give very good players a serious challenge, but I cannot play Allies at the same level, not even close. Maybe at the top level things even out a bit, but at my intermediate level the sides are very different in difficulty.

[regularkid]

a well-timed danish can opener can work wonders ;P

[SubmersedElk]

@regularkid:

a well-timed danish can opener can work wonders ;P

optimal timing: 6:30AM when all the Germans have fallen asleep

[regularkid]

lolz

[Peepette]

I usually give The Soviet Union 2 extra Tanks, one in Archangel, and one in Western Ukraine, I move the artillery in Western Ukraine to Belarus, and an extra Submarine in 127

China gets an Anti-Aircraft Artillery and an Artillery in Szechwan

The United Kingdom gets one Submarine in Sea Zone 98 and a Strategic Bomber in United Kingdom

Italy gains a Destroyer in 97 and a Cruiser in 96

France gets a Tactical Bomber in United Kingdom