The United Kingdom and The Commonwealth
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Switching up the turn order doesn’t work. If UK/France goes first then Axis auto loose. If Italy goes first then Axis auto win.
Putting so much emphasis on VC’s doesn’t make sense to me. They are already very important.
Making VC’s be the only way to get bonus money is against what the real objectives were for each nation. Also this would be very imbalanced. US would be weaker, and Japan would be much stronger.
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I like this London + Calcutta share 1 economy but their income is reduced without reducing total allied income!
Commonwealth can choose to produce in any or all of Canada, SA, Sydney, but no longer all the UK’s income can be spent in London or Calcutta.
With some finetuning for balance this can be perfected. Allies can become just that little bit stronger to satisfy ally-sceptics in the A&A community without being able to exploit game-breaking stunts…I 100% agree. Love this new idea!
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Well switching turn order has required special first round bonuses to offset potential game breakers like the ones you mentioned, and this has been the case with every board I have tried the variable start concept on, so of course G40 would also require mechanisms in addition to the OOB game to work. The Auto-loss you lay out assumes nothing else changes with respect to starting cash or first round variable bonuses. But the reason I enjoy a potential chance for a France opening, is that it allows for one viable round out of the player nation before it dies, instead of the current auto-destruct script built into the game OOB.
The point about the Commonwealth potential for producing a new turn order, is that you can get rid of the long US/China to UK turn sequence, and replace it with something a bit faster, to reduce the number of alternating player positions from 9 to 6. Otherwise the whole end of the round just feels like an endless Allied slog for an hour, only barely broken up by Italy’s turn.
I disagree about the concept of a VC bonus putting too much emphasis on VCs. Right now VCs don’t do anything at all in game, except as a sudden death mechanic for victory. I am trying to find alternatives to National Objectives and also ways to make VCs relevant, beyond just the sudden death VCs for an Axis win, which nobody I know enjoys, and which has generally proven an unsatisfying way for players in my group to conclude games. The objective in my case is to get rid of National Objectives altogether in favor of other dynamics, so I think your gut reaction assumes everything else remaining the same in the G40 start, which of course it wouldn’t (since NOs are hard balanced into the set up OOB, which is something I dislike). I find NOs and Nation/Territory specific rules problematic for a number of reasons, so my taste is for general objectives that work the same for everyone. I also find the production rules for Global distorting on the stack push (esp. the 10 drop at majors) so I know that for me I would ideally build other rules around the inclusion of the Commonwealth. But the basic point is that the Commonwealth idea seems like it would work even under the rules I enjoy. So it is an idea I am interested in exploring, and I endorse the set up change fully :)
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It would have to be one hell of a bonus for Germany if France/UK went first. UK’s entire fleet survives. Every unit that UK has that could reach 92 would go there. Now Italy has a huge fleet to deal with. France, with UK’s help, could hold. Does the “bonus” you are talking about get given to the power at the start of the game?
I kind of like France being able to go before Italy. That actually makes sense historically.
They aren’t just used as “sudden death” concepts. Your whole goal as Italy/Germany is to take Cairo after Moscow falls. That makes Cairo a huge deal. In the pacific I can see what you are saying about VC’s. They are only thought about when trying to stop Japan from winning, but the Philippines is worth +5 for US, and the Philippines is an excellent staging area.
National Objectives make sense. Japans goal in the real war was the capture the money Islands, India, Sydney, and possibly Hawaii (all of these contain VC’s). Germany had a shortage of oil, as well as Japan, and needed to get the Middle East oil. This is why it is worth extra for Germany, but only 2 for UK because UK never had a shortage of oil. Most of the objectives make sense if you studied each countries early war goals.
Stack pushes exist in every version because the stack is always going to be the best option.
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Well this is somewhat offtopic from the core of the thread, but the approach so far for variable has involved the non-com opening for the player who wins the role, in such a game. Which I think could work for an expanded Commonwealth Dominions faction too.
Typically the player/nation which starts begins in the non-com phase at zero to start, but collects the largest bonus. Each nation receives paired cash bonuses one time (at the beginning) after which point the game relies on the map values and printed IPCs, together with the bonuses gathered around the VCs, or through a spoils bonus (+1 ipc for taking a territory) or other bonuses which are generic and universal for all players. Things like that.
I favor a more basic ruleset generally for a g40 board, since the map itself and the unit roster is already highly complex. NOs require constant tracking, and more and more NOs get introduced to offset the effect of the NOs already in play, until the manual starts to require its own separate “players guide” or a deck of cards or incessant consultation and deep familiarity with the nuanced rules in the rulebook. The basic rules I am working on would take a different approach. Because I think all that stuff works fine in the smaller theater games, but is a hindrance when you up the scale to combine them both into one massive time sink haha. To that, but that is a different subject from just the basic idea of a Dominions faction.
For the Commonwealth Dominions, and the British Empire (including India and the rest of their possessions) the point I was hoping to make is that the Commonwealth player has a more interesting basic functionality that has me intrigued if it incorporated Canada and South Africa. I think they could be integrated in a lot of different potential ways, but would definitely be more interesting than just Anzac alone.
To the point about factories, the monster stacks that g40 features are in large part a function of all the majors +10 and the ability to upgrade. I know you can’t get rid of the stack push, but I think there are things you could do with factory or production restriction that might help. The potential for Canada to actually be an effective power, and South Africa, and Anzac is what I like, and the integration of the UK/India into one economy (since that last especially opens the discussion of factory adjustment to work).
I am thinking out loud a bit, when I mentioned the turn order, clearly all this is just musing on possibilities. What had me excited was the idea that you could split positions on UK/Dominion/France turns if so desired, so you get F/G/R/J/USA/Italy/UK-Dominion (back to France) or other potential starts in a similar sequence that might be interesting to explore. So in a variable game with Non-Com start with bonuses, the first player has a cash bonus but no placement (since they start in the middle of a game phase.) This would mean a larger pot for the Germans to steal on Paris, but offset by a UK-Dominion bonus. Or we do other similar mechanics to change the game, basically by altering the starting money and position in the turn order, this as an alternative to bids.
Not sure if you would enjoy that sort of game or not, I do, but again the basic thrust here was that I think the Dominion idea has promise. I did a quick draft up above with CWOMarc’s point about S.A. being a Dominion stronghold. I like the faction name the Dominions, because it sounds badass and reminds me of star trek haha! Commonwealth Dominions CD, and British Empire BE, the shorthand I already finding myself adopting in my head :)
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With the new 2nd edition almost no one builds a major complex though…
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Your idea’s on a combined Canada, South Africa, Anzac force is interesting. That would add much needed flavor for the allies, and combining India and London is nice as well. I still don’t see why factories are a problem.
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Here’s my idea concerning production facilities…
Industrial Complex:
Produces up to 10 units
Maximum damage 20
Unoperational at 10 damage
May not be purchased (original setup units only)Major Factory:
Produces up to 5 units
Maximum damage 10
Unoperational at 5 damage
May not be purchased (original setup units only)Minor Factory
Produces up to 3 units
Maximum damage 6
Unoperational at 3 damage
Cost is 12 IPCs
May be placed on any territory with an IPC value of 2 or greater.Therefore, all Minor ICs in the setup are now Major Factories capable of producing up to 5 units each, including a new one on India (original Industreal Complex downgraded to a Major Factory).
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This looks really good Young Grasshopper.
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This looks really good Young Grasshopper.
Thanks, this way Canada, South Africa, Normandy, Southern France, Southern Italy, Leningrad, Ukraine, Stalingrad, India, and ANZAC will all be able to produce 5 units each, even the 3 on the US before going to war. I suppose any Industreal Complex or Major Factory would be reduced to a Minor Factory when captured by an enemy. Gamers could use monopoly houses:
Industrial Complex = Gray plastic A&A ICs
Major Factory = Red Hotel (Red for 5)
Minor Factory = Green House (Green for 3) -
Yes and yes! :-D
That production system seems far more agreeable! Going to try something like this in my next game.
Great work GrasshopperHere’s my idea concerning production facilities…
Industrial Complex:
Produces up to 10 units
Maximum damage 20
Unoperational at 10 damage
May not be purchased (original setup units only)Major Factory:
Produces up to 5 units
Maximum damage 10
Unoperational at 5 damage
May not be purchased (original setup units only)Minor Factory
Produces up to 3 units
Maximum damage 6
Unoperational at 3 damage
Cost is 12 IPCs
May be placed on any territory with an IPC value of 2 or greater.Therefore, all Minor ICs in the setup are now Major Factories capable of producing up to 5 units each, including a new one on India (original Industreal Complex downgraded to a Major Factory).
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Thanks Black Elk, although it was KNP’s mid-level Industrial Complex idea that provided the basis for mine. I like using the monopoly pieces because a red hotel is synonymous with a red chip representing 5 units, and a green house is synonymous with a green chip representing 3 units.
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Yeah what I like about it is how the larger production centers are fixed from the outset so they could be represented with any generic markers (old units from Revised or AA50, or Monopoly, I like that idea), but what I especially like is how the Minor factories could serve basically like the base concept from the older boards that I always wanted to see in effect. 12 seems a good cost
In my games I like to fix production from the ouset, but having only one purchase option on the factories instead of 2 or 3, would definitely be helpful for G40.
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ps. This concept could potentially be used for other boards as well. If people wanted to try different production schemes on them.
IC at 10, Major at 5, Minor at 3
Gray, Red, Green. Brilliant!With ICs and Majors set, and Minors as the purchase option.
Using the factories from Classic, Revised or AA50, and Monopoly pieces… The brilliance and the color coordination.
Its basically genius. Nice work dude! I’m definitely going to experiment with this idea -
ps. This concept could potentially be used for other boards as well. If people wanted to try different production schemes on them.
IC at 10, Major at 5, Minor at 3
Gray, Red, Green. Brilliant!With ICs and Majors set, and Minors as the purchase option.
Using the factories from Classic, Revised or AA50, and Monopoly pieces… The brilliance and the color coordination.
Its basically genius. Nice work dude! I’m definitely going to experiment with this ideaThanks alot Black Elk, to avoid hijacking this UK / Commonwealth thread I have created a new discusion for this production idea here…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34111.msg1311089#msg1311089
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Hey All,
I am going to try this idea out this weekend. I am using the great Delta G40 card deck developed by Young Grasshopper and per his suggestion, it just seems better to have the UK as a single economy. Of course, so to not make the UK too wealthy, I am also using the Commonwealth to include ANZAC, South Africa, West South Africa and all of Canada. Here are the rules I am going with, sort of a mish-mash of ideas from the preceding Commonwealth ideas:
1 > Calcutta is no longer a capital but just a Victory City. Also, the Major IC is now replaced with one of my patented Mid-Level ICs. (Okay, so it’s not really patented, but that just sounded good.) Also, if Calcutta is captured by the Axis, the UK does NOT lose it’s treasury.
2 > I am using ANZAC units for all Commonwealth territories. The UK units in Canada, South Africa and the surrounding sea zones will be replaced with ANZAC units.
3 > The Strategic Objectives for ANZAC will apply to all the Commonwealth. The Strategic Objectives for the UK will still go to the UK. A couple of the SOs sort of cross over but I figure that is okay since the UK and Commonwealth are kind of dependent on one another.
4 > Commonwealth income can be spent at any IC: Canada, Australia and/or South Africa.
5 > Commonwealth is an odd power as it has two capitals: Ottawa and Sydney. If one or the other gets captured by the Axis, all Commonwealth money on hand goes to the capturer but Commonwealth is still in play like normal and may use any or all remaining ICs to produce units. If both Ottawa and Sydney are captured by the Axis, then Commonwealth is out of the game until one or the other is liberated. For City Objective purposes with the Delta G40 rules, I will still treat Ottawa as a victory city rather than a capital. In other words, the capturer only gets 2 IPCs per turn for capturing it instead of 5 IPCs.I think this is the simplest way to incorporate this idea into the game. I didn’t want to use the rule where if one capital gets captured, then the economy is split from then on because I just think that adds unneeded complexity. I’m excited to see how this goes. I’ll let you guys know.
Thanks to everybody for posting all your ideas. It’s nice to have a lot of choices to pick from and make your game truly your own. -
It will be a refreshing change. Enjoy your game Knp.
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