Comparing Iraq 2005 with Germany 1945


  • UK could have lasted alone against Germany without Canadian support

    I don’t agree because the  united states was also supplying UK with “war goods” (e.g. Lend Lease)

    We also gave UK 50 destroyers for some naval bases. IN 1940 Destroyers for Bases Agreement had seen fifty obsolete destroyers transferred to the Royal Navy and the Royal Canadian Navy in exchange for base rights in the Caribbean.

    FDR also had a few tricks up his sleave to basically fight the axis by supplying our allies with war making materials.During the year of 1940 we sent Large quantities of goods  to  Britain . US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt approved US$1 billion in Lend-Lease aid to Britain on October 30, 1941. Britain did not need to repay the main debt, only the amount for supplies in Britain when Lend Lease was terminated in 1945.when Washington suddenly and unexpectedly terminated Lend Lease on September 2, 1945. These were sold for about 10 cents on the dollar with payment to be stretched out for 50 years at 2% interest. Now that what i call a good deal.

    British Commonwealth received some $31 billion by the wars end. That includes Canada as well FYI.

    Canada contribution:

    Battle of Britian:
    Some 80 Canadians flew in the Battle of Britain. Of these, 26 were in the RCAF’s No. 1 Squadron, which arrived soon after Dunkirk; 16 flew as a team in the RAF’s 242 “Canadian” Squadron; the rest among a dozen other RAF squadrons. Leading to some confusion, the dispersed Canadian airmen one who flew with the Poles in 303 Squadron and another in the South African 74 Squadron. Another 200 Canadian airmen fought in RAF Bomber and Coastal commands.

    Eventually Canada had to reach an accomodation with America, because they were still suffering the effects of the Depression. To preserve their national security and guard against the threat of a world that may see the demise of England in Europe they signed the Ogdensburg Agreement which amoung other things defered control of the defense of North America (including Canada) to America much to the chigrin of supporters of the king and citizens who view Canada in some light other than where they belong. When FDR sent lend lease to England they also helped Canada get back on her feet with what they called the hyde Park Declaration.
        Under the terms of the Hyde Park Declaration, the United States would increase defence purchases in Canada, while material exported to Canada for use in supplies for Britain would be charged to Britain’s lend-lease account. This solved Canada’s immediate financial concerns but placed it even further within the American sphere of influence. As King told Parliament, it was “nothing less than a common plan for the economic defence of the western hemisphere.” Like the Ogdensburg Agreement, it has drawn fire from critics for just that reason; like the Ogdensburg Agreement, there was no other choice.
        With the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the United States finally entered the war. Canada suffered a loss of status. It was no longer one of Britain’s most important allies but a junior partner in a great power coalition. From now on, the war was to be run largely by Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union, which entered the fighting in June 1941. Canada had long abandoned its plans to fight a war of “limited liability,” and was making its maximum contribution to the war effort. Even so, the great powers were determined to keep the decision making to themselves, and viewed Canada as one of a number of minor allies that could not be given preferential treatment in case others demanded it.
        Canada was outraged to have no say in areas where it was making a large contribution. This was particularly frustrating in connection with the combined boards created by the United States and Great Britain in 1942 to allocate food and war material. Canada was a major producer of food for the Allies, but was shut out of the Combined Food Board.
        Hume Wrong of the Department of External Affairs provided an eloquent argument for a greater Canadian role, based on the functional principle. Each country should have a voice in areas where it was a major power; not everyone had an equal right to a voice in every area. It was a neat way of distinguishing Canada from such minor allies as Brazil or Mexico, but it was still a hard sell.
        Canadian tenacity eventually resulted in seats on some of the boards that were of interest to Ottawa after long and tedious negotiations, but Canada neither sought nor received significant influence in the military conduct of the war. Even when Roosevelt and Churchill met twice in Quebec City to discuss Allied grand strategy, King was content to play a small role. He took part in limited bilateral discussions with the British and American leaders, and though he appeared in all of the photographs he did not attend the actual planning sessions.

    The war progressed and engulfed more nations and resulted in the view that Axis Hegemony was a possibility.Further German victories in Europe combined with Japan’s entry into the war in December 1941 ended Canada’s attempt to limit its military role in a conflict that had now become a war of survival. Following the German successes of 1940, the government sent the Second Division overseas and began mobilizing two other divisions. At the request of the British government, Canadian troops were hurriedly sent to defend Hong Kong against Japanese attack in the fall of 1941. Ill-equipped and poorly trained, the Winnipeg Grenadiers and the Royal Rifles of Canada were all killed or captured when the Japanese overran the colony in December 1941. The Canadians in England, on the other hand, endured a long period of inactivity. Both the government and the military were anxious to have them see action, which helps explain Canadian participation in the ill-fated Dieppe raid of 1942. During this raid, more Canadians were killed or made prisoner for no military gain.

    It was only in 1943 that Canadian forces participated in a major campaign, the Allied landings in Sicily. This was an important occasion for the government, because the Canadian public was becoming increasingly restive about Canada’s lack of involvement. The government therefore was duly disturbed by the original description of the landing force as Anglo-American. After urging from Mackenzie King, Roosevelt agreed that the Canadians should be credited for their participation in the assault.

    Now with this being said you can now see how and why we feel the way you do when you say things like “without Canada WW2 is a lost cause”

    and im still laughing… :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


  • @221B:


    Not try to stir anything up, but why do you consider the US at that time cowards?

    Now I know you are kind of…irritated … by some of the other comments from other posters lately.  But your statements are equally inflammatory.  If you want to sling mud just the same as the other posters that is your right, but it doesn’t make you look very good IMO.

    “Tit for tat” is the strategy that i base most of my actions on. In that, you would have a right to complain about me if you had complained about the other guy. Just like i made comments like him and explicitly said so: I marked later in the text that my comments were pure retaliation and meant as “eye-openers”. And honestly, calling someone a coward is not equally inflammatory as wanting to “kill the fuckers”.

    If that is not enough for you to understand the point and think over the implicit criticism, then frankly i don’t care. So, yes i want to sling mud, and i want to watch out who is complaining about my slight mud slinging but ignores the stoning that takes place next to me.

    CC is right. And i don’t want to go down that road.  It would be job of the intelligent countrymen of the idiots to keep the idiots silent. Yet instead, teh intelligent countrymen keep silent, leaving the job to the foreigner.

    And Janus, last time you agreed that “kill all muslims” is inciting a crime, while we differed on “the world would be a better place without muslims” which you thought was of unclear status. You implicitly defend your countryman, part of the reason why i ask myself wheter you are a nationalist. And Janus, my comments on the Marshall plan and that the US were cowards are in exactly the same post. Please be precise in your quotations. A last thing for you to consider: usually people “learn” quicker when the punishment is explained. Combine that fact with the use of tit-for-tat: That’s why i (a) complain about something and then (b) do the same to annoy in retaliation. Your rejection of that concept is comparable to you watching how a person is beaten up, and then you complain when a third person slaps you in the face to make you step in and end the brutality.


  • @Imperious:

    but your knowledge of WWII history is sucking

    CC you have no idea how much i know about the military sciences… when i was at UCLA while persuing a diploma in Both Philosophy and History i basically also took every class offered at the ROTC program for officers which studied the entire span of military history and got higher grades than anybody in any of those classes. The only thing i didnt do was drill.

    you are correct.  I was basing my assessment on your (IMO) ridiculous comments.

    Now this does not place it as Englands equal in the effort, while clearly all of her colonies fought with equal distinction like India, Austrailia, Poland, and even the free French.They did not as you have posted make up the major portion of that effort…

    i really had hoped that my remarks would have been considered - AS I REITERATED - in a humorous light.  I had not insisted that they made up the major portion of that effort outside of a tongue-in-cheek context.  At the same time, i do consider that without our contributions to the UK war effort, the UK would have fallen, and i doubt that the US would have entered the war.

    they only helped save the world from the hun. IF you want to talk about who really won the second world war and who’s peoples should be praised for the greatest sacrifice they gave you only need to look at the big nation thats between Poland and China and kiss any Babushka you can find –-

    it’s funny, but i already made this statement in another forum - that the allies might still have won if the US did not have war declared on it, if only thanks to the Russians.

    Now with this being said you can now see how and why we feel the way you do when you say things like “without Canada WW2 is a lost cause”

    i did nowhere make this statement.  With this being said, you can now see how and why i feel the way i do about you when you say and invent stupid things.
    I guess that these last 7 words need not have been stated as the feeling is there pretty continually (or is it continuously . . . ?). 
    I made a comment in jest.  USans rushed to mock our efforts, and i loosely defended them, and then you come out with this crap? 
    Oh - and nice cutting and pasting . . . .


  • @F_alk:

    @221B:


    Not try to stir anything up, but why do you consider the US at that time cowards?

    Now I know you are kind of…irritated … by some of the other comments from other posters lately.  But your statements are equally inflammatory.  If you want to sling mud just the same as the other posters that is your right, but it doesn’t make you look very good IMO.

    “Tit for tat” is the strategy that i base most of my actions on. In that, you would have a right to complain about me if you had complained about the other guy. Just like i made comments like him and explicitly said so: I marked later in the text that my comments were pure retaliation and meant as “eye-openers”. And honestly, calling someone a coward is not equally inflammatory as wanting to “kill the fuckers”.

    If that is not enough for you to understand the point and think over the implicit criticism, then frankly i don’t care. So, yes i want to sling mud, and i want to watch out who is complaining about my slight mud slinging but ignores the stoning that takes place next to me.

    CC is right. And i don’t want to go down that road.  It would be job of the intelligent countrymen of the idiots to keep the idiots silent. Yet instead, teh intelligent countrymen keep silent, leaving the job to the foreigner.

    And Janus, last time you agreed that “kill all muslims” is inciting a crime, while we differed on “the world would be a better place without muslims” which you thought was of unclear status. You implicitly defend your countryman, part of the reason why i ask myself wheter you are a nationalist. And Janus, my comments on the Marshall plan and that the US were cowards are in exactly the same post. Please be precise in your quotations. A last thing for you to consider: usually people “learn” quicker when the punishment is explained. Combine that fact with the use of tit-for-tat: That’s why i (a) complain about something and then (b) do the same to annoy in retaliation. Your rejection of that concept is comparable to you watching how a person is beaten up, and then you complain when a third person slaps you in the face to make you step in and end the brutality.

    Ok, if you want “tit for tat” then that is your prerogative, I’m not taking anything as personal between us here.  And I have pointed out the same about “the other side” before (even when I agreed with their point of view)…so don’t say I ignore the other side…and besides, one has to start somewhere.  Now I only pointed this out because I believed it might do some good.  I beleive you are smart enough to not have to resort to insults with additional insults (which only makes you a target for the flamers), there are other options such as a polite but firm reply, or simply ignoring stupid and insulting posts. Since you are determined to retaliate in like kind to the idiots on the board … just remember the saying - if everyone wanted an eye for an eye, we would all become blind.  So sling the mud and stones if you must, just leave me out of it.  Again, I have no problems with you personally, I just expected better.

    Also, as a side issue, calling people “cowards” is equally inflammatory as “kill the fuckers” in my opinion.  It is only somewhat less crude/more polite, don’t think I will equate the severity of an insult with explitives that describe it.


  • @221B:

    … I’m not taking anything as personal between us here.

    That’s very good. I realize some of my wordings were a bit harsh in my last post and could have been misunderstood personally. I am glad you didn’t.

    there are other options such as a polite but firm reply, or simply ignoring stupid and insulting posts.

    I tried the first adn it didn’t work (long long time ago) and i will not do the second. I had a reason when i chose the “principiis obsta” and the “qui tacet, consentiere videtur” for my sig :).

    So sling the mud and stones if you must, just leave me out of it.  Again, I have no problems with you personally, I just expected better.

    Consider yourself “collateral damage”. I do pity that collateral damage exists, but in the War against Idiocy sometimes non-idiots and even smart people like you have to suffer as well, especially if they have the bad luck of passing by or if they -for some other reasons- stand too close to the idiots.

    Also, as a side issue, calling people “cowards” is equally inflammatory as “kill the fuckers” in my opinion.  It is only somewhat less crude/more polite, don’t think I will equate the severity of an insult with explitives that describe it.

    I very strongly disagree. Thereis nothing more final than killing someone else. An insult based on a perceived character trait is different from the wish to kill each and every of a set of people. The “fuckers” and the “cowards” have about the same quality. The “kill the”-part adds a totally new quality IMHO.


  • @F_alk:

    Also, as a side issue, calling people “cowards” is equally inflammatory as “kill the fuckers” in my opinion.  It is only somewhat less crude/more polite, don’t think I will equate the severity of an insult with explitives that describe it.

    I very strongly disagree. Thereis nothing more final than killing someone else. An insult based on a perceived character trait is different from the wish to kill each and every of a set of people. The “fuckers” and the “cowards” have about the same quality. The “kill the”-part adds a totally new quality IMHO.

    Well I see your point.  IMO, there are some things worth dying for and there are things that are more final than death and these are related to the character of a person.  Here the character assassination, “fuckers” and “cowards” imply similar defects on the character of an individual (not that you or I or anyone else on this board will have the final say on the quality of someones character).  The “kill the” part is only incedental to the disrespect.


  • And Janus, my comments on the Marshall plan and that the US were cowards are in exactly the same post. Please be precise in your quotations.

    my deepest apologies for making the mistake

    You implicitly defend your countryman, part of the reason why i ask myself wheter you are a nationalist

    im going to correct you here, because i dont want you to be under any false impressions. but then i will stop, because to be honest, i dont care how you feel about me, as long as i have made myself clear. I am absolutely not a nationalist, nor did i defend my “countrymen”, being those you referred to as bad. i share your opinon of those who make the ignorant comments. I choose to ignore them, because if i engaged them, i would frustrate myself, detract from the board, and accomplish nothing because ignorant people will not change ignorant opinions. i dont view the situation as

    Your rejection of that concept is comparable to you watching how a person is beaten up, and then you complain when a third person slaps you in the face to make you step in and end the brutality.

    because while i sympathize with those who may take offense to these ignorant opinions 1) they are in no physical danger from them 2) they are ignorant people who hold these opinions, so there is no reason to take it seriously 3) if they have a real problem with it, they can take it up with the moderators, who im sure will take action if it is creating a hostile environment for a board member. i dont sympathize with you, because your offense, while commendable, is not necessary. if you choose to engage them in the same way, thats your perrogative. i choose to ignore them.

    as for the defense of countrymen, i have defended americans in general from the abuse you lob, because like baker, i expected better from you, since you are not an ignorant person, and since i am american as well, meaning your abuse falls on me as well. dont mistake my silence in the face of some ignorant people making ignorant comments for approval, or support.

    if you still choose to view me as a nationalist, or whatever else you want, fine. like i said, i dont care.


  • Yep… looks like another thread gone haywire! You gotta love it!


  • CC#2 writes:

    if you honestly think that the UK could have lasted alone against Germany without Canadian support

    Imperious writes:

    say things like “without Canada WW2 is a lost cause”

    The statement you posted did not look like “a funny from CC, who is allways making jokes in political threads” It was rather looking like another false pride thing being after all a Canadian… The above two statements are not too different IMO. You are entitled to think differently.


  • @Imperious:

    CC#2 writes:

    if you honestly think that the UK could have lasted alone against Germany without Canadian support

    Imperious writes:

    say things like “without Canada WW2 is a lost cause”

    The statement you posted did not look like “a funny from CC, who is allways making jokes in political threads” It was rather looking like another false pride thing being after all a Canadian… The above two statements are not too different IMO. You are entitled to think differently.

    connecting those two comments requires several leaps and assumptions which i did not make, and yet you did.  Stop that.


  • And since were posting things that have nothing to do with German/ Iraq comparisons… I have this friend who has systemic Dandita which i guess attacks his stomach and intestinal tract… The problem with this guy is he want to cure it by a “diet change” rahter than taking proven cures to stop its growth and kill it. I found out that two prescriptions  Amphotericin B and Flucanazole are ways to deal with it… but he maintains that “they lead to permenent liver problems” However, i only found out that they have but a temporary effect of elevated liver functions nothing permenant only temporary… so questions:

    1. Are these the correct medicines for this type of problem
    2. Are they any studies of any proven value to claim any permenent damage to live or kidney functions.

  • Without Germany declaring War on the cowardous US which wouldn’t dare to enter the war on their own, we probably would have won. So, you didn’t save us from total soviet occupation, you introduced the threat of total soviet occupation.
    I wonder how many problems the US has solved that would never have been problems had the US not existed the first place.

    PS: If you think that characterising the population of a nation by an adjective with a semi-appropriate reasoning to explain that characterisation is “insulting”, you might wonder what the rest of world thinks of you if one of your kind calls a billion of people “fuckers”.

    And how many wars has your nation won?

    Stop with the personal attacks F_alk, you marginalize yourself with that kind of crap.

    If I remember correctly, Germans elected Hitler to power through a democratic process.  Yes, they are responsible for the atrocities commited by your “army that could have won the war.”

    If your army had won the war without the “cowardly US getting involved”, All Jews in Europe would have been slaughtered by your nations brutal system.  Are you saying you wished that would happen?Â

    No, I don’t think he is.

    It took the US, USSR, Britian, France, and other nations to put a stop to the atrocities committed by your people.

    Rebuilding your nation after the war was a great gesture of mercy by the allies considering what your nation committed against the rest of the world in terms of destruction and atrocities.  I for one am one glad American that my nation interviened and your nation lost.

    Rune Blade

    **DM EDIT: **

    Becareful Rune.  I removed a line, i think it went a bit too far.
    My comments are in bold


  • RB - not only did you collosally miss the point, but you . . . i don’t know how to finish this sentance without being really rude.
    But of course in your mind, you are the slammist debator having just given a solid thrashing to that motionless strawman. 
    Congrats.

  • Moderator

    I’ll be reading this thread tonight after work when I have more time.

    What are the chances of a lock?

    shakes Magic 8-ball

    Chances look good…


  • LOL too funny!… and yet not  :cry: :cry:


  • Well, let’s sum this up before the lock this way…

    There is some merit in the comparison between Germany and Iraq in the respective time periods.

    But perhaps we should add a few more points of comparison…

    Most of the residents of both nations went along with what appeared to be, and was presented as, “good for the country.”  Things like food being available again, not being subjected to outside rule, etc (the 91 Gulf War Cease Fire is dreadfully akin to Versailles, apparently we forgot THAT lesson).

    When the tyrants were deposed, MOST people were pleased, and again they backed the change due to things like food being available, family not dying, etc.

    And again, there were a few folks (individuals and small groups) who created chaos in the aftermath by fighting a war their nation had already lost, inflicting heavy casualties on occupation forces and natives alike.

  • Moderator

    The comparisons between Iraq and Germany died out long ago in this thread.

    No real useful content, so you guys can find another thread to piss each other off in.

    Will this thread be locked?

    shakes Magic 8-Ball again

    Yes.

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