Capital Punishment: case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams


  • @Zooey72:

    A good point in this case, but my objection to the death penalty still stands.

    In the case of Capital Punishment, we shall have to agree to disagree then,


  • Oddly enough - i am in agreement with Zooey.
    I do have other reasons, of course . . . .
    Some of them are related to my religious views.
    Some of them are related to exactly what Zooey posted.  As far as DNA evidence goes - people think this is as good as a conviction, but all it does is demonstrate one’s presence at the same site as an event.
    Also - i don’t see me being the one to kill somebody else, and i really don’t see it as my place to have someone else kill someone.


  • Well if you peeps dint favor death penalty… then what about ostracize them from society? So we dont have to pay for them. So basically put them on an island dont let them get off and allow them to do what they do without interference… even if they eat each other who cares! Thats the part i hate (opps i cant use that word around CC) so let me say IMO we just dont have anything to do with them ever. However, if your a murderer of millions, then their has to be some point when these people just die… right? So to rephrase… if it was totally proven that somebody like Hitler killed millions… does he just get to live because we advocate no death penalty?


  • Who would Jesus execute?


  • How many people have the Cripps killed?  Conspiracy to commit murder anyone?

    “Soldiers are murderers” - Kurt Tucholsky

    the rationale is he has somehow paid for his crimes and deserves a lessor punishment.

    Is “paying” part of the judicial principles in the USA, or is this your personal opinion?

    He even recieved a nomination for the nobel peace prize, but that was exposed as a publicity trick, because its very easy for anybody to get a nomination.

    A trick would mean he did not get a nomination. And getting a nomination is not very easy.
    “How to nominate” can be found here:
    http://nobelprize.org/peace/nomination/index.html

    The whole starting post was not surprising fro IL, in its bias and misinformation. I don’t see any merit in this thread, which only due to some effort of Zooey and CC might evolve. But that could have been achieved better by starting a serious thread from the begining.
    This way this thread - especially with the connection to the cannibal - is not worth the time i took to type this (yes, too much time at my hands at the moment). IMO it should be locked.


  • And getting a nomination is not very easy

    :mrgreen:

    Sorry Falk but your wrong again as usual … Its quite easy to recieve a nomination, in fact as a gag the local radio host in my area just got the nomination, just to smear mud in the face in those ignorants who keep saying " gee but he has all those nobel nominations so why could the state want to kill him" I am also gald you see you fall in my fishing net… yet again!  It allmost too surreal. LMFAO!

    And dont please hyjack this tread as well… hmmm? Stick to the fact pattern and youll do fine

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512080020dec08,1,4791965.story?coll=chi-opinionfront-hed

    so now instead of telling us what you dislike in others … what is your constructive opinion of the death penalty in this case??


  • @Mary:

    Who would Jesus execute?

    Jesus would tell individual sinners to “sin no more” and they would obey.

    A governor or president has the power to pardon, but not the power of Jesus to enable a life of redeeming action by any sinner, let alone one of a mass murder scale.

    Sure he has done some good since going into prison.
    I have volunteered to put roofing and siding on houses.  I can also write some books.  But I still had to pay for my parking tickets.  My volunteering was before and after getting the tickets.

    Of course, a miracles can still happen, and this guy could exhibit some immunity to whatever poison they will inject.


  • Ahem,

    Maybe I should have just “apologized” for parking longer than I had change to put into the meter.  Yeah, that would have gotten me out of the tickets.


  • @Imperious:

    … I am also gald you see you fall in my fishing net… yet again!

    from
    http://dict.die.net/troll/

    4. To angle for with a trolling line, or with a book drawn
          along the surface of the water; hence, to allure.
    5. To fish in; to seek to catch fish from.

    An … Usenet posting … which is intentionally incorrect,
      but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the
      act of sending such a message.  Trolling aims to elicit an
      emotional reaction …

    Not only admitted, but also admitted repeated trolling.

    I propose this thread to be locked for aobvious and admitted trolling.


  • If i was a smart young black man i reckon this is what i might answer this thread like this…
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5022757
    unfortunately i am not smart or black… i guess i will just have to rely on my wealth then…


  • The question seems to be when is the death penalty appropriate (if ever)?

    Well, just to put my 2 cents in, capital punishment is the only place where I am not pro-life (I have a great respect for life, be it in the womb or in prison).  I’m not saying the death penalty should be common, in fact I think it should be quite rare and reserved only for the most evil in society.

    However when there is someone who

    1. Is very violent, murdering for little or no cause (i.e. not manslaughter)
    2. Commits these crimes multiple times (making possible wrong convictions much, much less likely)
    3. Shows no true (not staged, after all everyone in prison is a born again Christian…until they get out) remorse or desire to change (Tookie did say he was changed, but refused to apologize to the families of his victims…not a sign of remorse)

    then I consider that it can be correct to apply the death penalty.  The individual has forfeited his right to live by his gruesome actions.  Why should society spend the effort to keep this individual locked up forever (with the corresponding chance of escape or other nefarious actions in prison - such as ordering retaliation on the witnesses to his crimes)?  Why should surviving victims and family members not have closure?

    With regards to cost, the expenses being greater to execute someone is a result of our overly expensive (in every respect) legal system, and should not be a reason to stop the death penalty.  Cost should never be a factor constraining justice.


  • 221b - just a by the way.  Tookie may have refused to apologise to the families as he maintains that he is innocent and has nothing to apologise for.

    Also there seems to be some thought that execution is an appropriate punishment for some reason.
    If i were looking at spending the next 40+ years of my life in prison, it would be very difficult to work up the resolve to have something to live for.  In fact, i would find the idea of a needle at the end of it quite comforting. 
    Prison vs. the death penalty not only allows for the sorting of the innocent from the guilty (after a period of time), but also helps to ensure that the guilty truly DO get punished, and do not get off so easily as a sweet goodbye into the comforting darkness - away from the torment of their soul/prison.

    Also - i am not looking for more crap here, but there is absolutely NO New Testament evidence for the death penalty.
    “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”
    Death does not equate to a parking ticket Linkon.  Many of us realize this.


  • Fair enough CC, yet the evidence for his guilt seems pretty convincing to me.  While he certainly could have been framed for one or two of the crimes he was convicted on, I find it difficult to beleive he was framed for all of them.  Or that there were not other crimes he commited where he was not caught.

    Dunno if 40 years in prison is better or worse than death.  I guess it depends on your perspective of what happens after you die.

    Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, I’m not pleased that he is dead.  Capital punishment doesn’t make me happy.


  • @Linkon:

    @Mary:

    Who would Jesus execute?

    Jesus would tell individual sinners to “sin no more” and they would obey.

    A governor or president has the power to pardon, but not the power of Jesus to enable a life of redeeming action by any sinner, let alone one of a mass murder scale.

    Sure he has done some good since going into prison.
    I have volunteered to put roofing and siding on houses.  I can also write some books.  But I still had to pay for my parking tickets.  My volunteering was before and after getting the tickets.

    Of course, a miracles can still happen, and this guy could exhibit some immunity to whatever poison they will inject.

    Why are you trying to justify this? There is no way a Christian can support the death penalty without completely disregarding Jesus’ teachings.


  • Why are you trying to justify this? There is no way a Christian can support the death penalty without completely disregarding Jesus’ teachings.

    Jesus also said he came to fulfill the law, and the law clearly states that a murderer is to be killed.

    Fry the bastard.


  • I’m no fan of capital punishment. I think it’s hipocratic and hurts our nation’s image. We are the only western nation still to execute people.

    But while the law stands, it is still law. A jury of his peers sentenced Tookie to be executed. Let the decision stand.


  • Question for Mary…or others

    Is their any point in your philosophy where if the murderer of many eventually deserves death?

    I hate to use the Hitler example but hes dreadful enough for this purpose

    would he be put to death under any circumstances? huh?

    You can only carry this Christian thing so far, after a point its utility as a guidline for behavior requires too many unnatural changes.
    we cant just keep up a stiff upper lip in the face of the pure evil allowing it in our presence.


  • Ahh… so we just set up the meeting place then? excellent!


  • You can only carry this Christian thing so far, after a point its utility as a guidline for behavior requires too many unnatural changes.
    we cant just keep up a stiff upper lip in the face of the pure evil allowing it in our presence.

    I know I’m going off topic here, but what are the unnatural changes are required to be a Christian?


  • a couple of thoughts:

    no true christian would support the death penalty. that said, no true christian would do a lot of things that many “christians” do on a regular basis. ive yet to encounter a “true” christian, in every sense of the faith. that doesnt mean they are bad, they simply have modified beliefs, which is fine. they just shouldnt profess to follow christs teachings to the letter.

    yanny is correct that it is the law, and the sentence should stand as long as it is the law.

    nothing williams has done since being convicted has redeemed what he did. he has done some good works, fine, but i dont see that as an excuse for the murders he was convicted on, the other murders he probably committed, and the gang he founded. how do you know hes even truly reformed? he might just be trying to pull an act to live. who knows. i dont buy it, but even if its genuine, he hasnt redeemed himself in my eyes. christ is all about forgiveness though, so if hes truly repentent, he will be forgiven.

    CC- the problem with your argument is that its anti-death penalty people trying to have it both ways. its fine that you dont support the death penalty, but its somewhat hypocritical for your reasoning to include life in prison is a “harsher sentence”. since the law isnt about “punishment” (another typical argument), along with the “cruel and unusual” amendment which anti-death penalty people like to refer to. its fine to believe this way, but its a poor argument. i mean, based on the reasoning you offered, couldnt life in prison be seen as “cruel and unusual?” an argument i heard awhile back went something like “nothing is more cruel or unusual than confinig someone to an 8x8 cell for the rest of their life, with no hope of release, surrounded by murderous, violent people, etc.”

    i support the death penalty because for those who commit the highest crimes, they cannot be kept in society. they must be removed from it, they are unfit to live. maybe it is nicer to them to kill them rather than jail them for life. but the law isnt about revenge, or inflicting the most punishment on someone.

    additionally, the website patton listed is racist. while it may be true (i think it is) that black convicts are more likely to be sentenced to the death penalty, this is a fault with society, not the justice system. there is nothing inherent to the system that brings racism, it is societal prejudices. argue against that, if you will, but do not say:

    could send a signal to other inmates that doing good works behind bars may be rewarded – and a message of hope to young African-Americans.

    first of all, doing “good works” behind bars should not be rewarded with any kind of clemency towards your sentence. maybe you truly found god, and now you will be a saint for the rest of your life. wonderful. you still killed people, and must pay your debt to society. “good deeds” should not merit clemency undue the sentence (meaning they should influence a parole hearing, since thats what the entire point of the practice is), but not a death sentence, or life without parole. the only thing that should grant clemency for death/life without parole is new evidence, an appeal, etc.
    second, this is counterproductive to stopping racism, because it promotes an “us vs. them” attitude.

    is there any reason why the sentence should be commuted other than because he is black, or he has done “good works” in prison? if you believe either of those should be enough, thats fine. i dont at all. we’ll agree to disagree then, because you wont convince me.

    IL: your not a true christian then. christ is forgiveness and mercy. God is the only judge. it is arrogant and sinful for man to judge, because it assumes a role higher than that given to him by God. sinners will face their judgement and punishment for their sins. virtuous people do not commit sins, even in retribution for other sins. christianity has no place for “justified killing”. killing is killing according to christ. its always a sin.

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