Number 4 from the top is Soviet Marshal Aleksandr Vasilevsky.
France : Homeless-sicle or Homelessicide?
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Those people who lie in the streets made a choice, in spite of your misguided views.They simply stopped being part of their society and the result is homelessness. They stopped the struggle for life which is the prime motivation for all human experience. Now they toil the streets and have nothing. We can show pity for what has become of some people, but in the final analysis they are to blame for their condition. That is not to say we should make fun of them or not do something for them… but in many second rate nations such as France they do have social services and can goto some homeless shelter or Church group…but alas failing that they made a choice to stay in the cold streets. Now i know you’ll point out as usual how this is stupid (or Falk will) and highlight my entire statement, but yes their are exceptions in some lessor nations that have little or no infrastructure to support these people… but I’m sure its not the case in a great nation such as France. Nietzsche had a remark along the lines of “if you never feed or provide for them they will eventually go away” I never give to them because its what invariably keeps them in the streets in the first place…
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Instead of laughing at this, or ravingagainst the people that are laughing, why not come up with a solution?
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IL,
Yes, you can pity these people. Yes, they made a choice that put them there, perhaps a wrong choice. And yes, you are correct, we do not want to become an “enabler” for their destructive behavior. But sadly, I do not see any compassion on your part and some other posters here.
This is a real tragic event, the more so as it could have (in theory) been avoided. I would not want my worst enemy to freeze alone on the street as these people have.
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why not come up with a solution
yes thats it, but if a socialist nation like France cant solve this problem, then what would you expect from a capitalist one? Again don’t help them and they will go away, but create some structure where they are whisked away and trained (retrained) like some job corps program. Failing that they don’t belong on the streets in any case and as such should not be accorded the same rights… They should be forced to participate in what was mentioned before.
One good thing to come from FDR was his “works progress program” as he himself states in on of his fireside chats:
"As to immediate relief, the first principle is that this nation, this national government, if you like, owes a positive duty that no citizen shall be permitted to starve.
In addition to providing emergency relief, the Federal Government should and must provide temporary work wherever that is possible. You and I know that in the national forests, on flood prevention, and on the development of waterway projects that have already been authorized and planned but not yet executed, tens of thousands, and even hundreds of thousands of our unemployed citizens can be given at least temporary employment."
this is a possible choice, but more than a few of this worker force has drug addiction problems, a criminal record, little education,and mental instability to name a few. So some period of rehabilitation should be addressed before they are forced to work. This is a “compassionate” response is it not?
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IL,
Yes, thise ideas are good - andit is more compassionate than those who would enable this behavior.
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I hope I did’t appear to be calous. Until recently I worked for a variety on nonprofits. Among them a homeless shelter. I have deep sympathy for these people. As a society it is our responsability to provide a home for them. And guys trust me, homeless shelters suck. The food sucks, the living conditions suck. We don’t give them much. But 3 semi squares and protection from the cold is not much to ask. As I stated before, 99%(Not a figure I can prove just my experience) of these people are not totally sane. If they had all their faculties they would never choose to live this way.
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You sure about that 99% figure… so your saying that many of the total homeless population are “mental”? It would depend on a clinical examination or are you placing them into this designation based on anti-social considerations?
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I was in Paris this past April (yup, the city is exactly as it should be in the spring), and I saw homeless people. That’s all I have to contribute…
…not.
@Imperious:
Those people who lie in the streets made a choice, in spite of your misguided views.They simply stopped being part of their society and the result is homelessness. They stopped the struggle for life which is the prime motivation for all human experience.
Actually, the majority of homeless don’t make a concious effort to be homeless. Who would? And - suprise! - the majority of homeless are neglected veterans, atleast in the US. Other factors are: the economy, mental illness, drug abuse (a cause and effect of homelessness), family conflict, and many more.
Now they toil the streets and have nothing. We can show pity for what has become of some people, but in the final analysis they are to blame for their condition. That is not to say we should make fun of them or not do something for them… but in many second rate nations such as France they do have social services and can goto some homeless shelter or Church group…but alas failing that they made a choice to stay in the cold streets.
Another suprise - many homeless have jobs. I guess we wouldn’t know, deciding against treating them like human beings and instead ignore them. And again, it’s not necessarily a decision.
Now i know you’ll point out as usual how this is stupid (or Falk will) and highlight my entire statement,
Maybe they won’t, but I will! See?
but yes their are exceptions in some lessor nations that have little or no infrastructure to support these people… but I’m sure its not the case in a great nation such as France. Nietzsche had a remark along the lines of “if you never feed or provide for them they will eventually go away” I never give to them because its what invariably keeps them in the streets in the first place…
I don’t know who you refer to as lesser nations, but even the US doesn’t have wraps on the homeless problem (by the way, the UN identifies it now as houselessness, but whatever…). We don’t provide enough resources to support our current programs. Meanwhile, as Bush calls more soldiers into active duty AND strips them of benefits, he’s perpetuating the problem.
One thing I noticed in Paris -which is probably no different in NYC, or Chicago, or London, or… - is that the homeless aren’t just crazy old men. There are homeless children. There are homeless families. There are homeless women. And none of them are monsters. Where I live, many of them are celebrities. I’ve met crazier people who have homes, and are half the fun to hang out with. My girlfriend used to host her back porch to many of them, putting old couches and mattresses back there for them, and brang out food occasionally. No problems. I was shocked to find that one of them was discovered on the internet (jail website posting bookings) by someone in Jimmy Kimmel’s crew, and he was a highlight for a week - “James Brown” for those of you who watch his show.
The point is that it’s a problem of society, not necessarily of the individual. Just like the mentally ill, the disabled, etc., these people need a little help, and everyone who is capable should do so. If not actively, atleast support the processes already in place to help them. -
IL, read his post. he said its based on his experience, not actual statistics or clinical tests.
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So then what do you advise to change this? Note: i do not necessarily disagree with what you stated. What shape of national policy should deal with them? I have proposed a “mandatory workers program” with some allowances to getting their problems situated but with the loss of some civil liberties. What say you?
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IL, read his post. he said its based on his experience, not actual statistics or clinical tests.
I have to agree with the gist of his experience. The homeless people i encounter - both on the streets, or in the ER tend to be people with some kind of psychiatric disorder.
Also i noticed something interesting when i was in Portugal. Even tho’ the temperature there in Feb was MUCH nicer than in my home of Winnipeg (+5 vs. -30 degrees) far more people went into the hospital/died of exposure there than in Winnipeg. It seemed to me that much of Europe just is not equipped to deal with cold the way us in the west are - either because of the way the houses were originally set up or costs of heating, etc.
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@F_alk:
@cystic:
It seemed to me that much of Europe just is not equipped to deal with cold the way us in the west are - either because of the way the houses were originally set up or costs of heating, etc.
Using Portugal as an example is like saying because people in Miami are not prepared to face the cold, it must be the much of the USA. The Mediterranian is warmer than the rest of Europe. I think the Scandinavians and Russians would strongly disagree with your statement.
i was extending to the part of France where the bodies were found - obviously Oporto is different than Moscow climate-wise. I was just imagining that as with some of the nations further west on the Iberian penninsula, some parts of France may have been less equipped to deal with these conditions (particularly relative to . . . say Winnipeg).
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the same happens everywhere. in the US, for example, DC is basically shut down with a couple inches of snow. further north, they would be celebrating with only several inches, and it would probably take them several feet to have any kind of problem.
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I hear you Janus. I was in San Deigo once with the temperature at maybe 68 degrees (aprox. 20 C) and people were wearing jackets and shivering. In New England, this is weather for t-shirts and shorts. Part of it is what you are used to (as in my case) and part is what you are prepared for (clothes, equipment). On the plus side, I was able to eat outdoors in the nice weather pretty much by myself even though the restraunt was crowded.
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Well in the time being couldnt the french just sleep near the burning hulks of cars on the side of the road that the Muslims caused?
(this is a crass joke… so not to worry) :-o -
I would like to know what came out of the great socialist utopia of France? They sure as hell talk the talk, but with all their social programs this is what it comes to? Homeless die in the US (it happens everywhere). I just question the heaven of socialism. I would think this would be a front line battle. Why this battle is lost? Because their economy sucks and they don’t have the means to do it.
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I would like to know what came out of the great socialist utopia of France? They sure as hell talk the talk, but with all their social programs this is what it comes to? Homeless die in the US (it happens everywhere). I just question the heaven of socialism. I would think this would be a front line battle. Why this battle is lost? Because their economy sucks and they don’t have the means to do it.
you also missed the point that most homeless people are not mentally well. You can’t force people into programs . . . well, maybe in a capitalist utopia you can . . . .
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@cystic:
I would like to know what came out of the great socialist utopia of France? They sure as hell talk the talk, but with all their social programs this is what it comes to? Homeless die in the US (it happens everywhere). I just question the heaven of socialism. I would think this would be a front line battle. Why this battle is lost? Because their economy sucks and they don’t have the means to do it.
you also missed the point that most homeless people are not mentally well. You can’t force people into programs . . . well, maybe in a capitalist utopia you can . . . .
You missed the point when I said it happens everywhere. I would think that in the great socialist utopia of France, this would be their biggest concern. Us horrible capitalist just kick the bums when we see them (sarcasm). If this is not a victem of socialism crying out “why didn’t you save me”. I don’t know what is. How did these mentaly ill people become homeless in the great big brother government that is France? Why didn’t “the system” save them?
Because the French economy is sitting right along side with the homeless mentaly ill. Too “socialisticaly ill” to save itself, and for some insane reason, thinks there is no problem.
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You have a lot to learn about mental illness.
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This thread serves no purpose.
Welcome to Locks-ville, population you.
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